Interesting... Iraq..

[wmw999 2,174]

Brilliant post.
People, please read this before posting again.
It's so much easier to report the spectacular; one tends to forget the mundane, no matter how overwhelming it is (whether it's good or bad).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Darius11 12]

I hope that letter is true. There would be nothing that would make me happier.
Imagine how good it would be if the people in Iraq lived better lives because of what our solders did just the thought makes me smile. I wish there was a way to get accurate information with out any spin at all that would rock.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Zoter 0]

I guess it all justifies itself out then Ron?

Not from my standpoint.....eye for an eye and all that.....but would you question me if I suggested that the US think in a more 'civilised' manner than the Iraq Militia....??

If so...go reanalyse your last post and this one again

[jerry81 10]

Quote

Quote

But true....

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2004/02/286154.wmv

(warning...content is of a man being shot in the back)

Lest not forget:
http://encoderx.co.uk/nickberg/

(warning shows a man that has been captured getting his head sawed off)

Yeah...I'm not sure if it's such a good idea to try to put things in perspective by comparing those two videos. The first one is almost as sickening as the second, except it's the good guys killing a helpless man and cheering.

---

[andrewstewart 0]

Quote

HE IS ACTUALLY in Iraq..

Unlike most people..

You win the point out the obvious award.

[kallend 1,679]

Quote

I find it interesting when you find information that is aganist your stance on things you change the topic...

Can you even admit that some good things are happening in Iraq?

I doubt it.

Good things ARE happening in Iraq, no doubt about it.

Here's a question for you: Go back 17 months and rewrite GWB's State of the Union Address to eliminate the untruths. No WMDs, Iraq is not a threat to the USA, Iraq is NOT an AQ haven, Iraq is not importing uranium ore and does not have centrifuges. Now ask the American public if they wish to sacrifice 800+ of our boys, PLUS another 5,000 injured, PLUS a cost of $1,000+ for each US taxpayer, PLUS the loss of trust and goodwill by our traditional allies, PLUS looking like hypcrites, PLUS becoming a recruiting office for AQ, PLUS killing tens of thousands of Iraqi cilivians, PLUS losing focus on the real war on terror, to do those good things. My guess is that the response would be a resounding "No F---ing Way"!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jraf 0]

Quote

Quote

Where are you?

What is your point? I'm not being an arm chair quarterback?

Yes you are, and you have been all along. You have been Tic Tocking from the comfort of your living room.

This war has currently cost the US economy close to $300 billion. Enough to give a proper college education to a full generation of Americans.

Hundreds of Americans are dead and thousands are maimed and wounded while you watch this war from your recliner.

Gas prices have gone through the roof.

There is no plan for Iraq and there is no plan for withdrawal.

Should you decide to reconnect the left side of your brain to the right one you will understand that while you get a hurraypatriotic hard on, this war has brought tangible damage to my homeland - the United States. While 400,000 vaccinated Iraqi children make my heart wheep...deep down I don't give a shit about them. My buddy Rafael was killed by the fathers of these vaccinated children and has left three of his own without one parent.

And you rhino are looking at all this from your living room and talking bull crap. How sad.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[rhino 0]

Quote

except it's the good guys killing a helpless man and cheering.

He wasn't so helpless 10 minutes before when he was trying to kill the very men that killed him.. I bet him and his jack ass buddies were chanting behind the wall just before the 50cal bullets started to fly..

[rhino 0]

Quote

You have been Tic Tocking from the comfort of your living room.

Wrong.. I'm not criticizing what they could have done better. Wrong.. Wrong.. Wrong..

[Zoter 0]

Quote

He wasn't so helpless 10 minutes before when he was trying to kill the very men that killed him.. I bet him and his jack ass buddies were chanting behind the wall just before the 50cal bullets started to fly..

Pure speculation Rhino...

Maybe he was maybe he wasnt....

All you know is what you see for yourself....hes down and is shot.....

[jerry81 10]

Quote

Quote

except it's the good guys killing a helpless man and cheering.

He wasn't so helpless 10 minutes before when he was trying to kill the very men that killed him.. I bet him and his jack ass buddies were chanting behind the wall just before the 50cal bullets started to fly..

Quite possible. But would you be any less enraged if the video of the beheading showed a marine captured in combat instead of Nick Berg? I didn't think so.

Anyway, I do realize war's a mess and scenes like that news clip are probably not uncommon. But if you're gonna commit war crimes (I do believe killing people not capable of further fighting falls in that category), perhaps you should at least wait until the reporters are not around. We've already established that the media apparently sensationalises the bad things- shooting at fallen enemies in front of cameras is simply bad PR that you can't afford.

---

[Zoter 0]

I think the crux here is that they did think he was potentially still a threat....and so shot him.
There was no real discussion or delay...even though the potential threat was not immediatly threatning

I personally disagree with this action whether the camera was there or not.

Thats before we even get to him being shot in the back and the related 'celebrations'

[catfishhunter 1]

Quote

Yeah...I'm not sure if it's such a good idea to try to put things in perspective by comparing those two videos. The first one is almost as sickening as the second, except it's the good guys killing a helpless man and cheering.

WTF You talking about????? Do you think they just decided to shoot someone walking down the road????? Did they just pick off some poor inoccent man minding his own buisness??? Hell No they killed someone that was trying to kill them BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE!

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[jerry81 10]

Quote

WTF You talking about????? Do you think they just decided to shoot someone walking down the road????? Did they just pick off some poor inoccent man minding his own buisness??? Hell No they killed someone that was trying to kill them BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE!

Yes, that flopping on the ground sure looks threatening...
Anyway, same question for you. Would it make a big fucking difference if you saw a home video of an American soldier's head being sawed off by islamic extremists? After all, he was probably at one point trying to kill them.

---

[Zoter 0]

So because someone is shooting at you...you HAVE to kill them no matter what
No matter if you have incapacitated them...achieved your mission objective......you still HAVE to kill them....just because they shot at you

If they still are trying to fight back....be my guest....but if they are not....do you still have to kill them ??

[newsstand 0]

Let's see here, last time I checked the coalition was supposed to be the "good guys." To me that means being morally better than the "bad guys." We are supposed to take the high ground and do things the "right way." Once a person is caputured/subdued I would think that shooting him was probably not the "right thing to do."

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[Ron 7]

Quote

Not from my standpoint.....eye for an eye and all that.....but would you question me if I suggested that the US think in a more 'civilised' manner than the Iraq Militia....??

You could always ASK them to be more civil...But my point is that its not that easy in the middle of a battle to go from killer to nurse. Even more difficult when the paitent was trying to kill you seconds ago.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,475]

>Wrong.. I'm not criticizing what they could have done better. Wrong..
>Wrong.. Wrong..

So what did your "glass f**** parking lot!" comment mean? What were you suggesting there? You posted an article about how we are rebuilding Iraq; you have suggested in the past that we destroy it. Which is it?

Over a year ago you were very excited about the possibility of a war "Tic Toc . . . It's getting better!" you posted as we edged closer to war. Now you have it, in all its glory. There will be more beheadings. A lot more US soldiers will die pretty horrible deaths, and even more Iraqis will die the same way. And now you seem to want to kill _all_ the Iraqis. Would that be even better?

[Zoter 0]

ditto

[Zoter 0]

Thats true, and I wouldnt argue that in that situation turning 'off' the gas is not difficult

Check the video again Ron...there is clearly time inbetween the man down and the 'execution' without a firefight going on....

Maybe its not the grunts fault, maybe the OIC should have stepped in and called a ceasefire at that point.....whatever...the way it was done....in the circumstances we SEE and the 'jubilations' afterwards just stink

[rhino 0]

Quote

"glass f**** parking lot!"

Sometimes your comparisons make me wonder about you Bill? They just plain don't make any sense at all..

What in the hell does me talking about turning Iraq into a glass parking lot have to do with ME NOT criticizing the actions of our troops in heated combat?

No comparison AS USUAL Bill..

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I reckon Bill is as confused as I am over your views over all this.
On several occasions you have advocated widespread destruction of Iraq, eg
"Kill em all.. Fuckers... Nothing like a good ole carpet bombing from a B52 to start the morning!! "
And in this thread, you quite rightly, point out that the coalition are doing some good for the little people.
Vapourisation vs vaccination, what is the best way out of this mire?

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[kallend 1,679]

Quote

I reckon Bill is as confused as I am over your views over all this.
On several occasions you have advocated widespread destruction of Iraq, eg
"Kill em all.. Fuckers... Nothing like a good ole carpet bombing from a B52 to start the morning!! "
And in this thread, you quite rightly, point out that the coalition are doing some good for the little people.
Vapourisation vs vaccination, what is the best way out of this mire?

On the whole, doing good things for 3rd world peoples can be accomplished far more cheaply, with less loss of life, and with less angst, by using well directed foreign aid rather than by invasion and occupation.

There are some 3 Billion people on Earth in need of better schools, better health care, etc., including many in the US and UK. Are the US and UK willing to spend a proportionate amount as they spent helping some 20M people in Iraq, to help the others? If not, why not? After all, it will only cost EACH OF US about $150,000

I'm sure our children and grandchildren won't mind if we borrow the money and ask them to pay it back.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Vapourisation vs vaccination, what is the best way out of this mire?

Whatever. It doesn't matter. No matter what we do it is the right thing. Duh...

[Tonto 1]

"While the email appears to provide some truthful information, it is replete with misinformation. I don't have time to check each representation in the email, but here's an overview:

Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations
This is interesting. A lot of kids have been immunized in Iraq. In fact, last year the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) "25 million doses of vaccines to Iraq to help prevent the spread of polio, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, measles, and tuberculosis -- considered the main killers of children in developing countries."[*] At the time, UNICEF spokesman Gordon Weiss explained that the children of Iraq would need several stages of repeated immunizations for the immunizations to be effective:

"Iraq is in a particularly delicate stage at the moment -- postwar, with a lot of the health system having broken down and a lot of the water systems having broken down, as well. So children are more than ever this year vulnerable to water-borne diseases. Usually you don't vaccinate just once, you vaccinate a number of times in order to have the vaccinations work."[*]

Here's what the Fact Sheet says:

"USAID has partnered with UNICEF, the World Health Organization (WHO) and Abt Associates to support health program in Iraq. Since the end of the war, USAID has vaccinated three million Iraqi children under the age of five, administered tetanus vaccine to more than 700,000 pregnant women, and by April 30, 2004 the USAID mission will have provided updated vaccinations to 90 percent of pregnant women and children under five years of age."

Hmmm. UNICEF said that 3 1/2 million Iraqi children were vaccinated last year. Does this mean that the vaccination program is not being pursued as much as last year? I don't know.

I also don't know where the 400,000 number came from. Last year, Iraq had approximately 4.2 million children in Iraq under the age of five. If fewer than 10% of young Iraqi children have up-to-date immunizations out of the millions who have been on an immunization schedule and are exposed, that would seem to be a serious failure.

That being said, hundred of thousands of immunized children has got to be a good thing.

The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
Nonsense. First, there's nothing in the Fact Sheet about oil. Iraq is presently exporting approximately 1.9 million barrels of oil a day, or under 60 million barrels per month. And that's going to be difficult to maintain. You probably already know that insurgent attacks have been limiting the exports.[*] In August -- the supposed 2 billion barrel month -- Iraq was expecting to export fewer than 1.2 million barrels a day, about 37 million barrels for the month.[*]

Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.
Here's what the Fact Sheet says:

"Iraq has 13 major wastewater facilities. Baghdad's three facilities are currently inoperable and comprise three quarters of the nation's sewage treatment capacity. Raw waste flows directly into the Tigris River. In the rest of the country, most wastewater treatment facilities were only partly operational before the conflict, and a shortage of electricity, parts, and chemicals has exacerbated the situation and only a few wastewater treatment plants are operational. Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities operate at about 65 percent of the pre-war level of three billion liters a day."

Water does appear to be getting to a lot more people. But, apparently, at a price. A witness from Basra last month claimed:

"The [water] plant seems to be working well . . . This plant is up and going and provides water for a huge number of people. Someone is constructing a new plant to expand so that there is drinking water. I have not met anyone here yet despite the poverty who is not buying drinking water."[*]

The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
Not true. According to the Fact Sheet, on March 11, 2004, power peaked at approximately 92% of "the pre-conflict generating level". ABC reports that power generation is off since last October and is averaging somewhere around pre-conflict generation.[*]

100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
Not true. The Fact Sheet provides no information about this. But, the Washington Post on March 5, 2004 reported[*]:

"Health Minister Khudair Fadhil Abbas said about 90 percent of the hospitals and clinics have been brought back to the same poor conditions as before the war but that the others will take more time to reach even that low level."

Here are the first few paragraphs from the article:

"The stout woman, covered from head to toe in a black abaya, shuffled into the crowded hospital. She went straight to the emergency room and opened her robe to reveal a tiny baby wrapped in fuzzy blankets. The boy had been born prematurely, and the family was afraid he was going to die.

Uday Abdul Ridha took a quick look and shook his head. The physician put his hands on the woman's shoulders in sympathy, but his words were blunt. "I'm sorry," he said. "We cannot help you. We don't have an incubator, and even if we did, we are short on oxygen. Please try another hospital."

Scenes like this one at the Pediatric Teaching Hospital in Baghdad's Iskan neighborhood have become common in Iraq in recent months, as the health care system has been hit by a critical shortage of basic medications and equipment. Babies die of simple infections because they can't get the proper antibiotics. Surgeries are delayed because there is no oxygen. And patients in critical condition are turned away because there isn't enough equipment."

Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
False. In June, 2003, US authorities put a halt to local elections. We installed mayors and administrators of our choosing.[*]

Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
I don't know how many Iraqi police are on duty, given widespread desertions.[*] But, we know how many police are in the New York Police Department -- 39,110.[*] According to the 2000 Census, NY City had a population of more than 8 million and covered an area of 320 square miles.[*] According to 1993 estimates, the population of Iraq is about 19,435,000.[*] Iraq is about the size of California, approximately 171,000 square miles.[*]

Though New York, like any other big city, can be dangerous at times, armed insurgents aren't blowing people up daily. New York has about 1 police officer for every 205 residents. Iraq -- which does have armed insurgents blowing people up daily -- has about 1 police officer for every 324 citizens.

Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
Not true. The Fact Sheet says that before we invaded 1.2 million Iraqis had "subscribed to landline telephone service." As of March 9, 2004, "104,680 subscribers to the Iraqi landline phone network were reconnected." Repairs have reconnected some form of telephone service between Baghdad and 20 other cities.

Girls are allowed to attend school.
True, but not because of the invasion. Girls were allowed to attend school during Saddam's rule. Between 1997-2000 82% as many girls attended primary school as did boys. 62% as many girls attended high school as did boys, during the same period.[*]

The email is not informative, but disinformation. It's propaganda. While he did not cite any particular rule, Lt. Col. Hapgood said that members of the force are not to take a politically partisan stance in any communications they use in which they identify themselves as members of the force. Lt. Col. Hapgood, in essence, also said that it was improper for Sgt. Reynolds to attack Senator Kerry in his email.

Thanks to Andrew Lazarus for his comment at dailyKos[*] for some fact checking leads.[*]

UPDATE: Apparently, Lt. Col. Hapgood misinformed me about Sgt. Reynolds' civilian job. He's not a cop. He's a firefighter. This is how Sgt. Reynolds responds to inquiries about his message:

"I did write it and I am in Kuwait now on my way home. I wrote it while at home because I felt that too many people were exploiting the violence in Iraq to sell papers and gain votes. Sometimes the silent majority need to be awakened to respond to the bad things in our world. I am passionate about our President's decision and support this rebuilding whole heartedly...Yes legit..I am a fire fighter in Denison, Iowa and to verify, call Mike McKinnon of the Denison Iowa fire department."

Too bad that the Sergeant's passion got ahead of his control of the facts.

Thanks to Snopes.com for the additional information.[*]"

Other side of the coin...

t

It's the year of the Pig.