Suppose Abortion becomes illegal..what then?

[kpjumps 0]

First and foremost I made the decision that was in Kyle's best interest, that is my HONOR as his mother.

I also made the choice that was best for me, his grandparents, Andrew, Justin and Ross (his three best friends for nearly ten years), his aunt and uncle, his two cousins who couldn't imaginge life without a big cousin to pester them, his sister who came along seven years later, a few teachers who have been touched by Kyle. I'd bet his future wife appreciates it. (Well, most days she will) And who knows how many others Kyle will touch. He's a very sweet kid.

My point is this... Kyle belongs no more to me than any number of people whose lives have been touched by him. Why should my rights have been greater than anyone else Kyle belongs to? That never made any sense to me. I am only one person Kyle belongs to... Why should I be given special right to play judge and jury as to whether or not he had a right to be born? Bet he's be hoppin' mad (and devestated) to learn that many people thought because of the circumstances of his conception he had no right to be born!

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[billvon 2,417]

>I cannot fathom how anyone who believes in God or a God would
>actually think that they have the absolute answer to this question.

We answer it all the time. We can remove life support from someone when we (not god) consider them dead. Sure, god could pull off a miracle and we are 'defying his will' etc by removing life support, but then we're defying his will by keeping them _on_ life support to begin with. "How dare you defy god's will by keeping him on a vent" etc etc.

We have medical technology today that make us sort of godlike, at least as seen by someone from 100 A.D. We can revive the dead. We can create new life where otherwise it could not come about. We can replace body parts with artificial and donated parts. Saying that we shouldn't do things because we "can't know more than god" is foolish. We do the best we can based on what we know today, and we will continue to do so.

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

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That would only be the case if I cared what someone thought of me? And I don't.. That being said...

I'm sorry, personally, I thought you were trying to have us hear your viewpoint. If you don't care what we think of you, then I don't care what you think about anything. That being said...

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I think the term fetus, where human's are concerned is a cop out of responsibility.
I believe throwing the term fetus around is disrespectful. Disrespectful to the very child tht is being referred to as a thing.. or an IT.

It's a medical term, noone made it up to be disrespectful. Science should not be offensive to you in anyway, it is the very backbone of why you claim an baby can be delivered early.

[freeflybella 0]

Sex does not equal children.

People like to have sex. Accidents sometimes happen.

What is being proposed is taking away the ability to correct that accident. The message that sends to me is sex is meant only for procreation and that if you do it for fun, you're taking your chances.

Obviously this argument does not work for those who base their views on subjective things such as religion.

Again, this is why I do not have a firm view of whether abortion is 'right' or 'wrong'. But again, that's also why I wouldn't vote to take away the choice.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[pajarito 0]

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How is calling a fetus a fetus an opinion? FACT, it is a fetus until it is born by definition.

Wrong... There are other developmental stages.

- Zygote
- Embryo
- Morula
- Blastocyst
- Fetus

None of the names given during the stages of development takes away from the fact that it is, in FACT, still human.

[freeflybella 0]

Absolutely nowhere did ANYONE say he had no right to be born. The right to HAVE a child isn't in question.

You said you made the choice that was best for you. I fully support that. I also support that right for a woman who did not want to bear a child conceived by rape.

Nowhere is this a judgment of your son - you helped to make him who he is. Who would he have been if you, your family, whomever, did not want him?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[kpjumps 0]

I am saying if you play with fire you might get burned. If you can't accept the consequences don't engage in the activity that will lead to the consquences. Like skydiving... How many times have I heard people in here say it can lead to death and if that happens I accept it... Don't feel sorry for me. It doesn't mean they want it, they just accept it as possible. Your birth control may not work, if you can't accept that, don't engage in the activity that leads you there. Simple, there is the woman's CHOICE. After that she can choose to keep her baby or offer it to a couple who is anxious to be parents.

And while no one said Kyle, specifically, shouldn't have been born... they say time and again giving birth to babies conceived in rape is horrible and no one should have to face that. Well, That is my son Kyle. I was just putting a face to it.
_________

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[kpjumps 0]

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Absolutely nowhere did ANYONE say he had no right to be born. The right to HAVE a child isn't in question.

You said you made the choice that was best for you. I fully support that. I also support that right for a woman who did not want to bear a child conceived by rape.

Nowhere is this a judgment of your son - you helped to make him who he is. Who would he have been if you, your family, whomever, did not want him?

He would have been placed for adoption and given to another family who was ready for parenthood. I just felt I could handle it.

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[TomAiello 25]

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Kyle belongs no more to me than any number of people whose lives have been touched by him.

I disagree. A child "belongs" to their parents far more than they "belong" to any other person or organization.

Your position seems a short step from saying that the government ought to make all the decisions about how are children are raised, because they "belong" to society, not to their parents.

A parents right to raise their child as they wish is pretty high up on my list of "don't mess with this". The cornerstone of that right is the principle that until you reach majority (at which time you "belong" to yourself), you "belong" to your parents--and no one else.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

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they say time and again...

they are not here, nor have "they" voiced that opinion here.
and
There aren't enough qualified & anxious parents around.

[kpjumps 0]

I understand that sex is fun. Skydiving is fun. Both can have consequences we don't hope for. Accept it and if you get pregnant own up to your actions. If you can't own up, don't play. Simple.

_______

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[kpjumps 0]

I did not mention any govenment agency, I named his friends and family... And yes, we all belong to a family and close friends that we consider family...

_________

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[TomAiello 25]

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...we all belong to a family and close friends that we consider family...

Doesn't that imply that we chose the ones to whom we belong?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kpjumps 0]

There are 8 pages of this thread or I 'd go back find where it said in here that in cases of rape abortion was okay. Which is why I shared my story. It is harder to say it is ok when the the product of rape or sex in general has a face. I was merely putting a face to a hypothetical.

_________

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[kpjumps 0]

Huh? I didn't choose my family but I have chosen a few very close friends that I consider family. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?...to quote my grandma.
________

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[Zenister 0]

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What a woman does with her own body is not my business, and most certainly is not the Government's business.

It's not just "her body." Review the pictures from post #5.

until the fetus can support its own life functions it is absolutely 'her body'.

That's your definition. You're a logical person Zennister and I think you're pretty intelligent. I fail to see how you can logically take your stance, however. Can you admit that you don't really know when the human life begins? Can you admit that nobody knows? I know what you think but you can't prove that it doesn't become a life worth saving or human enough to let live only when it becomes able to survive without the mother.

[Zenister 0]

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I cannot fathom how anyone who believes in God or a God would actually think that they have the absolute answer to this question. It's arrogance personified.

would seem that an omnipotent, omniscient God already knows and planned for who would and would not have an abortion so you might as well leave him out of it, as arguing about what 'God' wants is a moot point, the only backing you have for her opinion is books that are inarguably written by MAN no matter how much you claim divine inspiration...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[TomAiello 25]

I guess what I'm saying is this:

You get to choose which people in your life you will "belong" to. At some point, you were too young to select which people you wanted to "belong" to. How was that decision made before you made it for yourself?

I'd argue that the only reasonable way to make it would be to assume that you "belong" to your parents until you reach majority, at which time you can decide for yourself who, if anyone, you "belong" to.

I'd think any other way of determining who you "belong to" (i.e. who gets a say in determining your life direction) prior to majority would just be inviting meddling from governments, sociologists, and other villagers.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Zenister 0]

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How is calling a fetus a fetus an opinion? FACT, it is a fetus until it is born by definition.

Wrong... There are other developmental stages.

- Zygote
- Embryo
- Morula
- Blastocyst
- Fetus

None of the names given during the stages of development takes away from the fact that it is, in FACT, still human.

what do humans breath?

how many of those stages can survive in a 'human environment'?
your not 'human' until you can live in the same environment as the adult of your species (without artificial support)

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Lindsey 0]

So....even if a woman didn't take her pills exactly as she was supposed to and she ovulated and subsequently became pregnant, the implantation of the embryo is inhibited by the ATROPHY (not thickening) of the endometrium. The result is the same--due to the effects of the pill the embryo did not implant and thus did not live.

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Sorry to go back to this so far after the fact, but I went to sleep and missed the rest. If you consider that OCPs are about 98-99% effective, it's obvious that they pretty frequently do not suppress ovulation. It's in these cases (and I would imagine that that's quite a few pregnancies) that the pill works by blocking implantation of the embryo.

That 98-99% effectiveness of the pill can be mostly attributed to user error, not taking it when you’re supposed to. I wouldn’t consider that a great frequency of ineffectiveness. The main mode of action for OC’s is to prevent ovulation. Two other scenarios could possibly occur. OC’s can thicken the cervical mucus which can obstruct or reduce sperm mobility. Also, in rare instances, the endometrial lining of the uterus can also thicken and this might prevent an implantation. However, as with IUD’s, prevention of implantation is very rare and is not the main mode of action of the contraceptive.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Nightingale 0]

Personally, I'd never have an abortion unless my life was in great danger, and even then, I'd think long and hard.

I've made my choice. I'm not going to advocate taking away others' ability to choose for themselves.

I'm not pro-abortion, but I am pro-choice.

Here's another scenario:

My step-cousin was raped when she was TWELVE. She got pregnant. Carrying a baby to term at age 12 isn't healthy. Its dangerous medically, especially for my cousin, who is diabetic. Can you imagine what it would do emotionally and socially. Can you imagine what people would say to her, especially if they weren't privy to the whole story?

What would you "pro-life" folks tell her to do?

And no, I'm not going to tell you what my cousin did. That's her story to tell. What she's said I can tell you is that she and her parents made their decision after consulting with their pastor and parish priest, and acted accordingly.



Oh... and for those of you who were advocating that a man should need to sign a consent form before a woman could have an abortion, what if the situation was a rape? Would a woman still be required to have her rapist sign a consent form??


Ideally, my take is "make your choice before you have sex. If you don't want kids, don't make choices that can cause them." However, we do not live in an ideal world, and everyone is not granted the opportunity to "choose" if they will have sex.

I have made my choice, and I will not tell others how to make theirs. I'm not in their shoes, and therefore, I do not have the right to decide for them. I only hope they make their decision with careful consideration of ALL options and consequences.

[pajarito 0]

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it may be a life worth saving, however its interests do not bear equal weight to those of the host (mother) until it is capable of sustaining life on its own. Until then, as it is completely dependant on the mother for the most basic functions that define life, breath, digestion etc... its interests are also dependant on the mother, and no one other than the life that sustains its existence should make decisions regarding the continued relationship between the two.

this includes you, me, the sperm donor and most particularly the government.

its a very simple, medically verifiable, logical standard to go by no inference required, by legislators or priests

The items you listed were biological. So you're at least in favor of banning abortion after the point of viability? What is it...20 weeks nowadays when they can sometimes live apart from the mother and "breath this atmosphere?"

[lawrocket 3]

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People like to have sex. Accidents sometimes happen.

With the cited statistic of 1.5 million aborts per year, that's a little more than "sometimes." It seems that it goes to "Recklessness" as much as anything.

We do not call skydiving incidents "accidents." Why? Because in life or death matters like this, we take very seriously the consequences of actions, and seek the answers as to how to avoid "incidents."

The business of this thread is truly "life or death" is it not? "Mistakes" can cause new life. "Mistake prevention" should be practiced as readily as in this sport.

btw: Maybe I should change my avatar, bella! I'm not getting the same wiggle room I should!

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kpjumps 0]

What about fathers? It seems to me that abortion laws say that the child "belongs" to the mother solely until birth. Not fathers, grandparents, aunts and uncles etc. Yet the minute that child is born the father has rights and responsibilities. The courts have even ensured grandparents rights. Yet abortion seems to only concern itself with the mothers rights. Do you disagree?
_____________

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[rhino 0]

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It's a medical term. It means unborn child. It's no more a copout of responsibility than saying "disabled" instead of "not able to walk on her own."

WHAT?

The comparison of a fetus to an unborn child vs disabled instead of not able to walk is LIGHT YEARS apart!!! We are talking LIFE here Bill.. Not a disability....

omg