Ron 7 #51 April 14, 2004 Quote'The Israelis have just started that tactic....Seems like when you get desperate, you have to do desperate things. ' And America has started using Israils rules of engagement in Iraq. Desperate eh? Interesting..... Not desperate...different. We are at war in a distant land. Not dealing with local terrorists. different rules of engagment"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #52 April 14, 2004 QuoteWe did not go to War because we want help free the world we went to War because of WMD. if we want to free the world there is many places that need help. We went to war cause we though the had WMD's and he was not co-operating with the UN resolution. Being a good guy by taking out the trash is just a really nice side effect."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,467 #53 April 14, 2004 >while we didn't find any...and there may not even be any. That does > not mean they complied. They said they didn't have any and they allowed inspectors in to see for themselves. And while they bitched and moaned about access, in the end they aquiesced to the UN's requests for access, even inside the palaces. What else would they have had to do? Actually make some WMD's so they could 'hand them over?' >You and they had no proof of them getting rid of them..And if they > did get rid of them how? Did they sell them? Who knows? For the most part if you don't maintain them they degrade, so just doing nothing is essentially the same as destroying them. >And I would not say the were co-operating. From Blix's final report: "This is not to say that the operation of inspections is free from frictions, but at this juncture we are able to perform professional, no-notice inspections all over Iraq and to increase aerial surveillance." "No evidence of proscribed activities have so far been found." "How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can -- cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament, and at any rate verification of it, cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude induced by continued outside pressure, it will still take some time to verify sites and items, analyze documents, interview relevant persons and draw conclusions. It will not take years, nor weeks, but months." So we had a few months to go and we would know for sure. We wanted the war too badly to wait - it might have shown Iraq to be WMD-free, and then we'd have no excuse to go to war. I think it's time to admit that the Iraq war was something we've wanted for a long time, because Hussein was essentially pissing us off. The WMD/"liberation of Iraq"/spread of godly freedoms etc are window dressing for the desire to rid ourselves of an annoying dictator and give ourselves more military bases in the Middle East. >Yep, I guess someone should invade us huh? They tried about two years back. We got pretty pissed off. >Yep, and I still think that was OK since we were in a war and it saved > at lowball guesses over half a million men for the deaths of 270,000 > ememy. We were already targeting civilians with Napalm. OK, that's fine. I hope your outrage over other people using WMD's will be tempered by the idea that sometimes it's just fine if it gets you the results you want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #54 April 14, 2004 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Grow up. War means soldiers and some civilians will die. Its not a pissing contest. As long as more enemy soldiers die then american things are going well. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Grow up?????? Growing up doesn't mean growing cold, or numb. True but that is the reality of war. The US has done it's best to minimize the amount of civilian casualties by developing more accurate weapons. In WWII carpet bombing was the thing to do. Not so anymore. The price of war is that people will die. Some good, some bad and some totally innocent. All these things must be considered when contemplating war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker2001 0 #55 April 14, 2004 It will be a long time before the general public will see, or for that matter, believe that things are really bad in Iraq. I cannot believe that people still think USA did the right thing by invading in the first place. Those people are rats, they live like rats and they need to be ruled as rats. Saddam was the King Rat over there and those people had some order. Now, it is mass chaos! As long as America has other things to do, they will not care what happens. I think this is probably worse than Vietnam, but it will take a little longer for people to realize they have been lied to, tricked and fooled. These poor folks that have paid the price knew all too well of the mistake. "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #56 April 14, 2004 QuoteWho knows? For the most part if you don't maintain them they degrade, so just doing nothing is essentially the same as destroying them. Not the same. Quote>Yep, I guess someone should invade us huh? They tried about two years back. We got pretty pissed off. No they did a sneak terror attack. We warned, warned again, then invaded. He knew we were comming. There is a big difference between a terror attack on a soft target and a military operation. QuoteOK, that's fine. I hope your outrage over other people using WMD's will be tempered by the idea that sometimes it's just fine if it gets you the results you want I didn't say that. I said I agreed with it since we were at WAR with them. And that it saved on a low guess half a million lives on both sides. They were never going to surrender. It took the Emperor to see the destruction and as his congress to surender. It is well documented that they could not surrender without all members of congress voting for it...The war minister was never going to...It was only the Emperor asking him to that made it so they could surrender. So in that case it made sense. I would not agree with the US using them in a war like we have now."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,467 #57 April 14, 2004 >I didn't say that. I said I agreed with it since we were at WAR with >them. So sometimes it's just fine to use WMD's if it gets you the results you want (like during a war to force your enemies to surrender.) Keep in mind that others can use the same logic we do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vmsfreaky1 0 #58 April 15, 2004 Quote(in November I heard it was in excess of 2000 Two thousand? keep going! its in the tens of thousands according to amnesty international, but you know the U.S dont count dead iraqis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #59 April 15, 2004 You seemed to avoid the saving half a million lives part. We were in a war and we were offer two choices...Invade Japan and fight and have many on both sides die on every inch of ground. They had shown that they would not give up. They could not surrender since they could not get 100% of Congress to approve it. And they never would. The war minister was not going to surrender, and in fact after the surrender commmited ritual suicide in disgrace. Or we could bomb them with Fatman and Littleboy. We had already been bombing them with Napalm, and carpet bombing them for months. The President made a hard choice but one that used an unconventional weapon to save many lives on both sides..The Japan had its own nuclear program...Do you think they would haved use it? I do. Any war is a fuck up. I didn't want a Jewish state 50+ years ago. I really don't care now. I think the US should stop medaling in everyones buisness. However, I also am not going to sit back and be killed since I don't agree with Allah..Here is a little hint..I don't agree with Christains either....Or Jews for that matter. The simple facts are they, just like the Christains of old, feel like they need to "convert us". I don't want the US making choices based on religion, and I don't want any other country forcing its religion on me either. You did completely avoid all my references to other "Great" Presidents and the references to God...Including your beloved JFK. I think religion has only one place...And that is in the persons mind and hart....Keep yours out of my life, and I'll keep mine out of yours. But if you want to know the truth...I would fight anyone that tries to force their religion on me. And I will fight anyone that raises a fist to harm me...Leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone. Strike me, and I will rain every weapon I can on you to crush you into dust. I don't agree with any administrations policies in reguards to the middle east, and EVERY administration has walked the same line. And I think particuarly now we will continue. Like it or not we are engaged in a religious war. I don't think the Jews run our economy or own our media, but the Jews are not attacking us. Muslims are. I find it very strange that Christains support the Jews. Hell if you killed my leader, I'd crush you. The Muslims believe in Jesus...Hell, if I were a Christain, I would support them over the people that killed my "saviour". I find that really funny. In closing I think the world is fucked. Short of killing evey militant nut on BOTH sides we are going to be fighting for God, Allah, Jesus, Bob, whatever till we destroy the planet. Its this reason I don't want to have kids. You like "revalations"....We are living it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #60 April 15, 2004 QuoteThe US has done it's best to minimize the amount of civilian casualties by developing more accurate weapons. In WWII carpet bombing was the thing to do. Yea, right, like the attack on Dresden and Hamburg... Dresden didn't have any industry nor were any troops gathered in the area. Still, US and british bombers killed more than 250.000 innocent civilians. It was a planned and executed war crime. Or dropping Napalm on vietnamese villages... But yea, these times were soooo different. Lessons not leaned: Allied carpet bombing of german cities drove the germans to believe their Führer that the Allies were really the evil ones and he was to save europe from Communism. Industrial production of weapons reached its top late in '44 and only decreased because of lack of resources. Naplam on villages convinced people that they had to fight... not the VC.... The great smart bombs are only "highly" precise in practice environments, studies have shown that most of the ordnance in combat sorties is dropped/fired from too far away/unstable conditions. Most of the bombs dropped are still "dumb" bombs, anyway. *OUT*The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #61 April 15, 2004 The US spends *billions* on smart bomb research. Why do you think we would do that? QuoteThe great smart bombs are only "highly" precise in practice environments, Can you support this claim? I'd love to read all about it. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #62 April 15, 2004 QuoteNow, it is mass chaos! As long as America has other things to do, they will not care what happens. I think this is probably worse than Vietnam, but it will take a little longer for people to realize they have been lied to, tricked and fooled. Why do you say that Iraq is in a state of Mass chaos? Where did you get that info? You know, if you had never been to NYC and never lived in a densly populated area and then came here to NYC and watched the NEWS every night for 2 weeks, but never traveled into the city, you would think it was Mass chaos there too. But it is not. It is a small percentage of people who make all the "Bad NEws" in the world. IN 2002 575 PEOPLE WERE MURDERED IN THE 5 BOROUGHS OF NYC In one year 575 murders in ONE CITY in the USA... Is that MASS CHAOS? Do they report the good news in Iraq? No... Think about it. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #63 April 15, 2004 Damn? Does that qualify as a personal attack? I hope not.. Does this answer your question? ~Tom Aiello Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #64 April 15, 2004 QuoteOriginal Claim--Actual Number 120 -- tanks destroyed -- 14 220 -- armored personnel carriers destroyed -- 20 450 -- artillery pieces destroyed -- 20 744 -- confirmed strikes by NATO pilots -- 58 Air campaign over Serbia, stated here Had an article from Janes on that topic flying around as well, but that was more than a year ago and i don't know if i still have it. Quoteafter the Gulf War, the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency discovered that the initial BDA [Bomb Damage assessment] of Iraqi forces was at least 30 percent too high. The point is that often pilots have to ie. take evasive action while still having to aim the laser etc. for guidance. Once the guidance is gone or interupted, the bomb just drops "dumb" from its glide path. QuoteThe US spends *billions* on smart bomb research. Why do you think we would do that? They do increase the efficiency, and they bring down the cost, as you don't have to drop so many. I must admit my claim was based on older models, i can't back it up with actual statistics. Here's an interesting article, i ran over googling... How Smart Are Our Smart Bombs?The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #65 April 15, 2004 True in the first Gulf War... Infact only about 30% of the weapons used were smart. However, a lot has changed in the last 12 years. Just think about the advances in Computer technology from 91 to present. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #66 April 15, 2004 QuoteJust think about the advances in Computer technology from 91 to present. Right... The MIR was controlled by four computers equal to a Commodore C64...The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #67 April 15, 2004 Thank you for illustrating that the US is doing its best to minimize civilian casualties. It is not the policy of the US to target civilians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #68 April 15, 2004 Interesting. A coward and a idiot, thats pretty harsh. OK so I think the Import Export pic is pretty tacky but what he said is fair comment. How many Noncombantants have died? How many more Americans will die? I fully realise that now this mess has been made the coalition (or at least the US and the UK) have to stay and clear it up, to not to is simply not an option at this point. But Tinfoil is asking relevent questions. Pictures of flag drapped coffins may be unpleasent but its the simple human cost of this war. I think it does more of a diservice to fly the fallen out through Ramstien in the dead of the night like something to be hidden and ashamed of. If you're prepared to pay the price then why hide the currency? I wonder if Tinfoil isn't right, maybe the American public is more sensitive about paying that price than its willing to admit. Attacks like yours on Tinfoil reinforce that suspicion.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #69 April 15, 2004 QuoteThey do increase the efficiency, and they bring down the cost, as you don't have to drop so many. I believe there is also a motivation to save innocent lives in the money we spend on smart bomb technology. Would you disagree? . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #70 April 15, 2004 No, even though i'm afraid that's not the primary motivation.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #71 April 15, 2004 Quote How many Noncombantants have died? More probably will. Quote How many more Americans will die? As many as it takes to complete the objective. Quote I fully realise that now this mess has been made the coalition (or at least the US and the UK) have to stay and clear it up, to not to is simply not an option at this point. You say that as if the whole thing was a mistake and that we have to pursue damage control to make up for it. Over half of the American public disagrees with you and we think it was, in fact, necessary for many reasons other than WMD. Not to look at ALL the details/reasons is not to take the whole problem in perspective. The Democrats use “WMD” alone to drive their agenda into the minds of the uneducated masses. Quote But Tinfoil is asking relevent questions. Pictures of flag drapped coffins may be unpleasent but its the simple human cost of this war. You’re pointing out what should be obvious. It isn’t, however, to much of an American public that has been so detached from the realities of war for such a long time. Even in the wake of something as tragic as 9-11, they keep on living their lives in ignorant bliss and quake at gruesome pictures that disturb their happiness and take away from their party. Quote I think it does more of a diservice to fly the fallen out through Ramstien in the dead of the night like something to be hidden and ashamed of. If you're prepared to pay the price then why hide the currency? What? Do you think their all flown out at night? Do you really think some are flown out at night to hide their numbers? Do you think their funerals are private and hidden from the press? Must be that “vast right wing conspiracy theory” again. Quote I wonder if Tinfoil isn't right, maybe the American public is more sensitive about paying that price than its willing to admit. IMO, much of the American public is, in fact, too weak hearted and naive. Thank God that the majority of us, however, have the grit and gumption to see through what has to be done. I personally believe theirs is a just cause and that those boxes are filled with heroes that did their duty. TAKING THE FIGHT TO THE ENEMY. “De Oppresso Liber” God bless them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #72 April 15, 2004 No, their primary purpose is to KILL as efficiently as possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #73 April 15, 2004 Well, the idea is to in the end get a bomb to kill the intended target (bad guy), not the innocent bystander (good guy). And the question was not about primary purpose of bombs, but on seccondary motivations to develop them. Protecting innocent civilians by using precise bombs is a viable secondary motivation for their development.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #74 April 15, 2004 Whatever... The effect that your action will pose to civilians is always part of mission planning and risk assessment. It is not the intent of American troops to kill civilians. But to be as naive as to think that civilians won't get killed in war no matter how sophisticated your weaponry is, is asinine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #75 April 15, 2004 QuoteYea, right, like the attack on Dresden and Hamburg... Dresden didn't have any industry nor were any troops gathered in the area. Still, US and british bombers killed more than 250.000 innocent civilians. It was a planned and executed war crime. Or dropping Napalm on vietnamese villages... But yea, these times were soooo different. I love the way you conveniently left out the fact that the NAZI's too were carpet bombing..... Would you have like to hang out in London in the early-mid 40's. It is always one sided right.. The US is wrong always. Just say it. Don't hide your beliefs. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
