Re: [Michele] JFTC ladies, please check in!

[freeflybella 0]

Look we could pick each others posts apart all day - Fine. Men get breast cancer. I wasn't implying that men had no, or even diminished, roles regarding the issue.

I'm not interested in a pissing contest.

The point I was trying to make and now feel like making again, is that you don't have to put someone down just because they don't see things your way. No matter which side you're on.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Keith 0]

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I wasn't implying that men had no, or even diminished, roles regarding the issue.

Not only did you imply it, but you shouted it. When you type WOMEN'S issue, that is shouting.

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The point I was trying to make and now feel like making again, is that you don't have to put someone down just because they don't see things your way.

Ok, I'll bite, how did I put Jan down by stating that I didn't agree with her message?

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[freeflybella 0]

Hi!

Not that it matters, but I am not offended by the idea of the calendar.

I have no expectations of what it will be.

I believe someone was trying to express herself (maybe or maybe not to the best of her ability) and was responded to in a very yucky way. I don't mean to speak for MakeitHappen, I don't know her. I was definitely speaking for myself alone. I, too, often have a different way of looking at things from others and felt like saying so.

Those who got aggressive were no better at communicating than what they accused MakeitHappen of. They just had the 'comfort' of majority opinion in this/that thread.

Good luck with your endeavors.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[mjosparky 3]

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Look we could pick each others posts apart all day - Fine. Men get breast cancer. I wasn't implying that men had no, or even diminished, roles regarding the issue.

I'm not interested in a pissing contest.

The point I was trying to make and now feel like making again, is that you don't have to put someone down just because they don't see things your way. No matter which side you're on.

Do you have any idea what their way is. Both you and Jan have no idea what the calendar is going to look like or how it will present women in skydiving. Any point you make or are trying to make is uninformed and without any basis in fact. Climb down off your high horse long enough to see how this project comes out. Then if you feel it is beneath your standards, yell all you want to.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[freeflybella 0]

Look - you made a point of joining this discussion to say some mean and dismissive things.

Unfortunately, I made the mistake of joining on impulsive reaction.

I'm sorry. I don't know you. I haven't made any suggestions to know you - again, I didn't mean this to be a pissing contest. Or a hijacking.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

Are you kidding me?

You can point the finger at me or whomever all you want to but everyone has standards and morals and values and things that concern/interest them.

All I objected to were those who were attacking someone in return for supposedly attacking them. And now I'm on the radar.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Keith 0]

Nobody was attacking Jan or her manner of expression. We were and are telling her we disagree with her viewpoint. I support that you're defending someone you perceive is being ganged up on, but you should at least be sure they are in fact being ganged up on and why.

By the way, just for the record; I get bent over content not delivery so I don't believe we've pissed on each other.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[mjosparky 3]

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You can point the finger at me or whomever all you want to but everyone has standards and morals and values and things that concern/interest them.

I agree with you. But everyone's standards and morals should not be forced on others. Jan got jumped on because of her abrasive manner and belittling of others efforts. This is not the first time she has done this, and I am sure it won't be the last. These women have come together to try and do something good. If you can't support it, does that mean it is ok to attack it?
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Michele 1]

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Good luck with your endeavors.

Thanks, Bella!

I'm absolutely excited about how this is coming together. Stressed, of course, but absolutely excited!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 2,476]

>that allows poeple to just jump on someone with a different viewpoint.

I agree there, although keep in mind that disagreeing with someone is not "jumping on them."

>They are, not by choice, being represented by this calendar.

The people being represented by the calendar are the people _in_ the calendar. They do not represent all women, or even all JFTC women, any more than the USPA calendar represents all skydivers, even all USPA skydivers.

>If I were doing the JFTC jumps - and I'm not - I would prefer that I
>not be represented to the skydiving community as a pretty picture.

Then you don't have to be; you can decide that you'd rather have ugly pictures (or no pictures at all) taken of you, and choose what records you want to be on accordingly. Personally, the "image" that Amy and I present to the world is a very, very small part of why we do big-ways.

[freeflybella 0]

I didn't want to keep posting here but I have alot of respect for you. I don't know you but have a place in my heart for you because of alot of what you write.

I understand that disagreeing is different than jumping on.

I just PM'd Keith and admitted that I just thought how I'd feel if people were saying those things to me when I was trying to express myself.

I don't agree that only those being represented by the calendar are those in the calendar. Unless of course it's being called "The Girls In This Calendar".

And I didn't mean pretty vs. ugly!
What I meant was, "I participated in this wonderful charitable event. See? Look at my face." Instead of "See? That's me in the formation. Or that's us dirt-diving" (My humble preference, not that it's right for eveyone.)

I've said it before and I really mean it. I have no expectations of what this calendar will be like - except what has been written. Artful, beautiful, lots of skin and a little cleavage. That's OK. But I can see why some women might want the calendar to be decscribed as strong, beautiful, hopeful, inspirational. Maybe that was implied.

I'm not trying to shut it down and have never expressed even a desire to do so or even say it's wrong to do. I do hope it's successful and makes ALL of the jumpers on the big-way proud.

Finally, I didn't understand what you meant in your last sentence "Personally, the "image" that Amy and I present to the world is a very, very small part of why we do big-ways."

Shani


Edited to remove the word "ugh".
I didn't want to seem like "ugh, I have to reply" but "ugh, someone I respect is posting to me and I wanted to just slink out of here!"

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Michele 1]

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But I can see why some women might want the calendar to be decscribed as strong, beautiful, hopeful, inspirational. Maybe that was implied.

Um, more than implied...

Again, I ask that all who have concerns stop for a moment, think about what the concerns are really, and then have some patience and wait until the calendar is actually done before determining it's value.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 2,476]

>I don't agree that only those being represented by the calendar are
> those in the calendar. Unless of course it's being called "The Girls In
> This Calendar".

I got the USPA calendar and I'm a member of USPA; I even "work" for them on occasion as a writer, instructor and S+TA. But I don't feel the USPA calendar represents me. It's just a calendar with cool pictures. It does represent Mary directly, because she's on it.

Now, that's just me, and pictures aren't really important to me. Some people may think that any reference to the JFTC implies something about the reputations of all the women on it. But it's certainly not a universal feeling.

>What I meant was, "I participated in this wonderful charitable event.
> See? Look at my face." Instead of "See? That's me in the
> formation. Or that's us dirt-diving" (My humble preference, not that
> it's right for eveyone.)

I agree with that last part. Take the pictures here. They are certainly posed individual pictures; they're pictures of people's faces, and both Mallory's and Richard's are studio shots. I don't think that means that those pictures are pushing sex or saying "See? Look at my face!" (or that Kate is pushing Corona for that matter!)

>Finally, I didn't understand what you meant in your last
> sentence "Personally, the "image" that Amy and I present to the
> world is a very, very small part of why we do big-ways."

There's a lot of talk about what "image" this event should portray about women. Neither one of us is much into that; we do big-ways (and I help out on JFTC fundraising) because we like doing big-ways and fundraising for good causes.

I think we've sort of gotten away from the issue here, which is that a group of women want to do something to raise money for breast cancer. From what I've seen of it so far, it will be a carefully planned, well done artistic shoot of, say, 12 of the JFTC members. Personally I'm all for it, and I wish them well. They seem to have some detractors, and that's fine - everyone has their own opinions, and can choose to participate or not based on their own feelings on the matter.

[freeflybella 0]

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But I don't feel the USPA calendar represents me. It's just a calendar with cool pictures.

It's a calendar of skydiving skydivers from a skydiving organization.
Makes perfect sense. But if the USPA only put out calendars of skydivers doing their laundry, while yes it would be funny - you'd be like "Hey, what does laundry have to do with USPA?"

Hey...you've tricked me into playing devil's advocate!

***I think we've sort of gotten away from the issue here, which is that a group of women want to do something to raise money for breast cancer. From what I've seen of it so far, it will be a carefully planned, well done artistic shoot of, say, 12 of the JFTC members. Personally I'm all for it, and I wish them well. They seem to have some detractors, and that's fine - everyone has their own opinions, and can choose to participate or not based on their own feelings on the matter. ***

And with that, I totally agree.

The issue I chimed in on had nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of the calendar - but with the wrongness of telling others who tell you you're wrong that they're wrong!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[misskriss 0]

http://www.calendars.com/product.asp?PID=1&MGID=-1&IID=11081

I wonder if these firemen feel "demeaned" for posing for this calendar? The proceeds go to the FDNY safety fund. Guaranteed they are showing much more skin than what will be used in the JFTC calendar. Because they posed doesn't take away from the fact that they are brave men and risk their lives everyday. Calendars have been used for as long as I know as a way of raising money.

Also see http://www.leukemia-lymphoma.org/all_page?item_id=218179 This movie was based on a very true story and the calendar even outsold the Brittney Spears calendar in the states. I applaud these women.


(excerpt from Q&A with one of the calendar girls)

Q: If you could give one message to the American public about Calendar Girls, the
calendar itself or your experiences with blood cancer, what would it be?


A: "We all learned an important lesson: If you have an idea, think it's a good cause and you believe in it, then do it. If we had talked about doing the calendar with others, they may have told us to forget it."

[MakeItHappen 15]

Futher information is at this url

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[mjosparky 3]

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Futher information is at this url

Did Flo Jo make women in track & field look bad or did she raise awareness of women athletes world wide? And she did it while looking sexy and feminine. Looking sexy and feminine does not degrade women, it is part of what they are, sexy and feminine.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Zenister 0]

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just maybe, you will ditch the T&A aspect and go for REAL skydiving photos.'

in that a calendar is a work of art i'm far more motivated to buy one (or 2 or 10 in addition to other donations) if it contains tasteful, artistic pictures of the female form, who are also talented, motivated, inspirational skydivers.

Because as much as you might hate it, JFTC is about saving that form from the ravages of a horrible disease, and i can hang any number of 'regular' skydiving pictures on my walls already that dont really reflect the goal i'm supporting when giving money to help fight breast cancer...[I]which isn’t objectifying women, but your raising money to fight breast cancer here, not brain cancer (which my uncle just died of btw so don’t pretend I’m picking my causes with sexist motivations)

is it about 'Women who are skydivers' or 'Skydivers who happen to be women'? there is a subtle difference...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mailin 0]

Way to beat a dead horse...

Why argue the merits of something you obviously have no control over - in order to bring attention to your bruised ego?

Live and let live, and die and let die.

Enough already.

Jennifer

Arianna Frances

[flyangel2 2]

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Why argue the merits of something you obviously have no control over

Or haven't seen yet? I'm not sure just how many times it needs to be said. This calendar is not about T&A as stated here and in other forums.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Michele 1]

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Or haven't seen yet?

And doesn't look like you will be participating in?

Jan, again, you are welcome to your opinion. You're not in charge of this, and really don't know what it's about, based on your comments, despite all the corrections we've supplied. If you're insistent and expectant that this is a T&A calendar, you will likely be very disappointed in the results. Sorry you can't respect others' opinions the way you're demanding respect for yours.

If you can come up with something that will generate more funds, rock on.

Ciels-
Michele

(Edited to add: please note where you placed this post, and understand why it's not been deleted whereas your first attempt was..."things in proper places", as my father would say....)

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[jlmiracle 7]

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Futher information is at this url

again, Jan, you are making fun of the people on the website which you have done in the past on rec.dot and is why this thread turned so ugly.

I hate to see people who willingly participate in something then go and bash it. Not even constructively.

One question for you Jan, why did you participate in All-women events if don't like the way the events are handled and by your posts, you don't appear to be into the "girl" things.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[katecooper 0]

STOP PICKING ON JAN.

She is entitled to her opinions and she is my friend.

jan taught me the inappropriatness of misusing term "girl" in public. I'm not 100% fixed on it, but I do understand now that this is an offensive description to many women.

I am not one of those people who finds the term offensive, and I personally don't mind being referred to as a "girl" but I've had the luxury of being in an environment where it is not used as a derogatory word.

Jan rocks.
So do the rest of you.

Now step away from the thread. Nothing to see here.

Oh, and yes, I'm taking part in the calendar shoot. I think it's going to be fun, and that's what it's all about. That and raising money for a good cause.

kate cooper
jftc 2005

[Keith 0]

I sent this as a response to an e-mail I received, and think it deserves to be posted here.

-----------------------------------
Women have been saying, and rightfully so, for years "These are our bodies, we'll do with them as
we see fit." I agree! When it comes to sex, date rape, abortion, sexual harassment And posing
for a fund raising calendar; NO ONE should have the right to tell Any woman what she can and can't
do with Her body. NO ONE should have have the right to say she can't have an abortion, and I
certainly don't believe that ANYONE should have the right to tell a woman she can't show any
portion of HER body in a calendar. It's Her Body!

I think a woman's right to choose is a Hard Earned Right, and I think making exceptions to that Right diminishes it.

Blue Skies and Regards,
Keith

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[mhartboca 0]

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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention do not call grown women 'girls'.
Same with 'chick'.
What about Babe?

I'm guessing that, as my friend Judy would say, "hot chicky babe" is probably outta the question?

Michael Hart