gemini 0 #76 February 13, 2003 QuoteShe is a teacher. She endures petty administrators just as clueless as many military leaders. She endures low pay and working conditions worse than many military REMFs. Let's see she has a low paying job with limited respect. Yep, just like a military job. She can quit anytime and do something else. Ummhh can't do that in the military. She can refuse to move. Can't do that in the military. She can go home at night. Sometimes can't do that in the military. She can sleep with Justin at night. Sometimes can't do that in military. She gets a warm bed. Nope not always. List goes on and on. Don't get me wrong. I also agree that most teachers (and policemen/firefighters/EMS) workers are unappreciated and underpaid. However I disagree that all are. Those serving in Administration are usually underqualified and overpaid because they are bureaucrats with a bureaucratic mentality JUST like a military bureaucrat. Quotewithout the pretty military medals and victory parades You are not supposed to get medals for doing your job! The one's that really count are given for heroism and valor. When 58,000 teachers die "in the line of duty for their country" over a ten year period then you can include them in the same sentence with the word patriot. A good citizen is not equal to a patriot. By the way as a Vietnam vet, I didn;t get any parades either! But I enlisted, I did my job with the tools I had and I tried to do my best regardless of the frustration and crap dished out by others. Sounds like to me you gave up and became part of the problem! Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #77 February 13, 2003 QuoteFinally, Everyone resents the one guy who, speaking out of conscience, urges the "crowd" to do what is right even though it is costly -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone else thinking Billvon here ? Actually no, I was thinking of George W. Bush. I do agree that Speer wrote an excellent essay and something to re-read as Michele stated. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #78 February 13, 2003 Gemini, I wasn't saying that teaching is exactly like the military. While there are similarities, there are also vast differences. I was illustrating how people can serve their country in different ways. The same is true even within the millitary. QuoteI also agree that most teachers (and policemen/firefighters/EMS) workers are unappreciated and underpaid. However I disagree that all are. I don't think I said "all", as I don't think that either. Nor do I think the top military officer ranks are underpaid. I feel most for the lower enlisted folks. QuoteWhen 58,000 teachers die "in the line of duty for their country" over a ten year period then you can include them in the same sentence with the word patriot. Is dying the qualification for patriotism? In that case, nobody posting in this forum qualifies, including you. I also disagree with the concept that military service is itself inherently more patriotic than many other forms of service to the country. Who does more for our country, a non-infantry enlisted slacker who scrapes by with minimal effort and no promotions, or a excellent teacher who inspires children and gives the only point of stability in the lives of some troubled children? There are patriots in the military. There are patriots outside the military. As much as I dislike politicians, I'd hope that many members of Congress and the Senate are patriotic. Lots of them were never in the military. Teachers, firefighters, police, and just about everyone else CAN be patriotic. What about a scientist that was born blind, but works for a defense contractor, building the better widget that may save some GI's life? They can't enlist. I'm not saying they all are patriotic, as I'm not saying all in the military aren't. It is actions at the individual level, not group affiliation, that determine patriotism. QuoteSounds like to me you gave up and became part of the problem! Aside from the unecessary personal attack, your comment doesn't make much sense. Because I didn't stay career military, I "became part of the problem"? Or is it because I use my brain enough to see value in the actions of many, rather than a cut-n-dried view of military moral superiority? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #79 February 13, 2003 Which of the founding fathers of the US said that the first job of a patriot is to protect the country from it's own government? Who is more patriotic, the man who goes to war, or the man who doesn't because he thinks the war is unjust? Also, do people in the military fight for their country? Or for the people that live in it? Is it really the same thing? To anyone who answers, please address my questions. Thanks! -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #80 February 13, 2003 QuoteWhen 58,000 teachers die "in the line of duty for their country" over a ten year period then you can include them in the same sentence with the word patriot. A good citizen is not equal to a patriot. So I guess it was impossible for women or minorities to be patriotic until they were allowed into the military? And none of the people who worked like dogs during WWII to supply the war effort. Or anyone who goes without or gives up some piece of luxury or even necessity so that someone in the field doesn't go without isn't patriotic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #81 February 13, 2003 >Sounds to me you gave up and became part of the problem! Using that logic, one could claim you quit and became part of the problem. I don't use logic like that. The only people who really become part of the problem are the people who vote with no real knowledge of who or what they're voting for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #82 February 14, 2003 QuoteIs dying the qualification for patriotism? I don't think you have to die to be a patriot. Let's see what Cambridge says: patriot noun [C] a person who loves their country and, if necessary, will fight for it. Most Americans love their country. They may not agree with the government, but they love their country. Many will not fight for it though. My point was that not everyone who works in America can be classified a patriot unless they are willing to fight for it if necessary. If you put 100 people in a room and ask me to identify the patriots, my first question will be "Who has served?" At least I know they were willing to fight if necessary. The rest I will never be sure of. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #83 February 14, 2003 Quoteone could claim you quit and became part of the problem Like Justin, I was not career military either. I took the out so I could go to college. I knew a lot of guys in the military who were misfits, criminals, and worthless, but they didn't keep me from doing my job because I wouldn't let them. All I meant to imply was that by doing nothing to correct an observed problem we all become part of the problem. Bill, I seem to remember you said something about people who don't vote. I thought you meant if they don't vote they are part of the problems we have. Justin, I apologize for the comment. I did not actually mean "you" in the specific. I should have been more clear. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefallfreak 0 #84 February 14, 2003 QuoteBy the way as a Vietnam vet, I didn;t get any parades either! Welcome home, brother. FFF "Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #85 February 14, 2003 QuoteIf you put 100 people in a room and ask me to identify the patriots, my first question will be "Who has served?" At least I know they were willing to fight if necessary. The rest I will never be sure of. Like Timothy McVeigh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #86 February 14, 2003 QuoteIt doesn't bother me when people criticize the US or other countries - free speech and all that. If it does bother you to hear other countries criticize the US, then don't criticize other countries. That's the deal. OK, you didn't answer the question I asked. Let me simplify. Why are you (as a moderator) chastising Americans for criticizing other countries when you constantly criticize the US and allow Non-Americans to do the same? I'm not asking if it bothers you when people criticize the US and I never said it bothers me to hear others criticize the US. Understand the question? "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #87 February 14, 2003 QuoteQuoteIs dying the qualification for patriotism? I don't think you have to die to be a patriot. Let's see what Cambridge says: patriot noun [C] a person who loves their country and, if necessary, will fight for it. Most Americans love their country. They may not agree with the government, but they love their country. Many will not fight for it though. My point was that not everyone who works in America can be classified a patriot unless they are willing to fight for it if necessary. If you put 100 people in a room and ask me to identify the patriots, my first question will be "Who has served?" At least I know they were willing to fight if necessary. The rest I will never be sure of. How does it figure in your definition if you get your well connected father to obtain a billet for you in the National Guard so you don't have to go to Vietnam? And then not turning up for your duty? Is that the act of a patriot?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #88 February 14, 2003 Gemini, Part of the difference of opinion is a difference of definition. Webster's: QuoteMain Entry: pa·tri·ot·ism Function: noun Date: circa 1726 : love for or devotion to one's country This is a much less militant definition, and one I choose as my interpretation. It says nothing of requiring a willingness to die. With this meaning of patriotism, many non-military people are included, and if we are honest with ourselves, many military people are excluded. As I stated earlier, I see it as an individual belief that defies easy categorization by type of service to country. QuoteJustin, I apologize for the comment. I did not actually mean "you" in the specific. I should have been more clear. Ah. In that case, I withdraw my reply to that particular statement. I thought you were directing it at me personally. No harm done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #89 February 14, 2003 >Why are you (as a moderator) chastising Americans for criticizing other > countries . . . OK, let me simplify - I'm not. You can criticize whatever you want here, and I will not try to stop you, or even yell at you, for doing so as long as you follow the rules. If you do choose to do so, then don't be suprised when others criticize the US. I will not stop them either. Understand? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #90 February 14, 2003 QuoteLike Timothy McVeigh No, he was a criminal and killed US citizens. But, in his mind he probably thought of himself as a patriot. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #91 February 14, 2003 QuoteHow does it figure in your definition if you get your well connected father to obtain a billet for you in the National Guard so you don't have to go to Vietnam? And then not turning up for your duty? Is that the act of a patriot? Let's not be so restrictive as to where a person served. Ask Al Gore this question. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #92 February 14, 2003 QuoteQuoteHow does it figure in your definition if you get your well connected father to obtain a billet for you in the National Guard so you don't have to go to Vietnam? And then not turning up for your duty? Is that the act of a patriot? Let's not be so restrictive as to where a person served. Ask Al Gore this question. Why try to change the subject. Al Gore is not leading us into a war right now, he has withdrawn from the race, he is irrelevant. I want to know if you consider the behavior I described to be the actions of a patriot, since you are the DZ.com expert on patriotism.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #93 February 14, 2003 QuoteQuoteLike Timothy McVeigh No, he was a criminal and killed US citizens. But, in his mind he probably thought of himself as a patriot. But according to you, if someone served you can automatically trust them and call them a patriot. I think maybe you might need to reconsider how you define a patriot. If there are exceptions to your rule that all those who served are patriots, surely there must exist exceptions to the rule that all those who haven't, aren't. You also didn't address the issue of those who have or are currently prohibited from military service. Blind people, deaf people, people with asthma, former drug abusers, open homosexuals. It is impossible for any of these people to be patriots? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #94 February 14, 2003 I am an American. I love my country. I think that the US does more good than harm, and generally has its heart in the right place. Am I a patriot? Maybe... depends on which definition you use. Would I say that I am just as patriotic as someone who decided to serve their country by putting themselves in a situation that more than likely would get them killed? No. Would I belittle what men and women of the armed forces HAVE done for the US and many other countries and people by saying that I am JUST as much a patriot because I can read documents that support my opinions and bicker about it in an "educated" manner on a website forum? Never. No matter what your definition... you and I are not on equal footing with someone who chose to stop talking, reading, and bitching and actually take action for what they beleived in. You have to take any argument here with a grain of salt. Sure some people really disagree on the issues, more likely I think most people would be bitching no matter what was going on. It gives them something to do. PS- If I hear any BS about what my definition of "action" is, I'll puke.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,129 #95 February 14, 2003 Trent, that was nicely put. Not that I necessarily agree with every last detail (this is dz.com), but I really liked the way you put that. Note the complete lack of sarcasm tags. Particularly the part about puking Wendy W. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #96 February 14, 2003 Thanks, Wendy! Just when I thought we all couldn't just get along!Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #97 February 14, 2003 >No matter what your definition... you and I are not on equal footing > with someone who chose to stop talking, reading, and bitching and > actually take action for what they beleived in. Nice post; I agree. I spent five years designing weapons for the military, which I see as my contribution to the defense of my country. I still don't consider that to be on the same level as someone who puts themselves in harm's way for the defense of his or her country. We owe the people who do that (and who have done that in the past) a huge debt; they make it possible for us to live in freedom and relative peace here in the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #98 February 14, 2003 QuoteWe owe the people who do that (and who have done that in the past) a huge debt; they make it possible for us to live in freedom and relative peace here in the US. Hear, hear! you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #99 February 15, 2003 QuoteI think we should quit the joking and just invade. We KNOW they have weapons of mass distruction. So Do WE whats your point Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #100 February 15, 2003 QuoteThat is why I love being South African - we have always been such tolerant, easy-going open-minded people. This is A Joke Right. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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