Execution

[pyke 0]

I am inviting all sorts of wrong interpretation and a boat load of shit from you guys and gals, but here is my .02$
It was determined in 1995 that McVeigh was guilty and should be put to death by lethal injection. It was proven in the "fairest justice system in the world" (as it is billed by the justice department). So, why the HELL does it matter if 3000 pieces of paper turned that haven't been sifted through by his defense attorneys as to whether or not he did it!!!
Kill the fucker!!! He not only acted out the most violent act of internal terrorism against the US, but imagine the lives of the people he affected by doing it. Waves of his actions are still being felt and will be for years to come.
Now, don't get me wrong, I am all for giving man their due credit against the system judging them, but hell, it WAS proven "beyond a reasonable doubt", so what is going to be in these pieces of paper that gets him off???
I don't like the idea of trying to find a scapegoat for a crime when the guilty go free (LHOswald[debatable on another thread], Rubin "Hurricane" Carter, etc), but c'mon people...the man has admitted his involvement and is now trying to capitalise on his death (selling the rights to an internet co.) and HE EVEN ASKED TO BE PUT TO DEATH.
I once heard in a movie that if you put two men suspected of committing a crime in prison and wait until the next morning....only the guilty man will wake up rested. The reason, he knows he did and got caught, so he will get some sleep. The innocent man will stay awake all night wondering why this has happened to him.
Does McVeigh ever look like he is unrested????
Kia Kaha,
Pyke
NZPF A-2584

[SkySlut 0]

Now, am I correct in understanding that they are going to televise his execution??? I think that he should pay for what he did...the guy deserves is, but if they are going to show him being put to death...that is a whole new issue in itself...
-Slut
"I'll jump anything!"

[pyke 0]

It's official...
He will not be put to death on Wednesday, May 16. The justice dept. are making it sound like they are doing it in the face of justice...try "spitting" in the face of justice!
Anyway, guess this will be another continuing saga. And when they have their time to go through these documents...then what...will more stuff surface around the date for the next execution???
what a load of shite and a waste of OUR money!!! I read a statistic in school while researching a paper. It takes $500,000 to execute a person in our legal system, with all the bills and motions and the like that surface to put him to death, this figure becomes close to 3-5 million. Conversely, it takes 750,000$ to keep a prisoner alive on death row a YEAR. Do the math quickly and you realise that if we had killed the fucker in '96, we would have saved over 2 million ALREADY.
"a fair and speedy trial" Whatever!!!!! Try "a largely publicised, opinionated, long, drawn out, waste of tax dollars trial that will in the end...keep you alive in jail wishing you were dead!" I think we should change the Constitution.
Peace
Kia Kaha,
Pyke
NZPF A-2584

[Doasfu 0]

Alright, against my better judgement I'm going to jump in here. We are talking about killing a human being. I know he's not a good person, and I know that most people think he deserves to die, but this is a human life that is going to be ended. Doesn't he deserve a complete defense? Even though it may seem trivial, these are documents that the FBI was required by law to hand over to the defense, and they did not do so.
Yes, this case seems as black and white as they come, but just because this man is hated does not mean he should not be given the same protections under the law that we are all entitled to.

[SkySlut 0]

I personally dont really care...the guy never bought me a beer. The interesting thing to me is that this guy wants to be executed. I would think that would constitute some mental problem, but for him he wants to die so he can become some sort of martyr. Which I think televising this thing would be exactly what he wants. Anyways, you ever hear this guy speak??? He speaks in Star Wars lingo in regards to the government...the evil empire & the rebel alliance and all that crap...the guy is off his rocker.
-Slut
"I'll jump anything!"

[Iflyme 0]

And the USA accuses other countries of human rights violations... you don't have the right to take a life - no one does.

[pyke 0]

I agree with you wholeheartedly Doasfu, a human being does deserve a COMPLETE defense, but the man admitted his involement (could be wrong, but that is how it came across to the public). And, if he wants to die, then hey, who are we to stand in his way.
as far as skysluts interpretation of being a martyr, I don't possibly know how he will be martyrised...aside from the family and friends of those intimately affected by him, and the history books, this guy's gonna disappear in the memory of the public in a year, so if he has some grandiose illusions of being immortal, he'll find a rude awakening in the afterlife (which ever side he ends up on).
Kia Kaha,
Pyke
NZPF A-2584

[cdunham 0]

Gosh, Pyke, you seem awfully amped about this. Did you know anyone who was killed in the bombing?
I only ask because if someone I knew was there, I would probably want to see the guy tortured to death, publically. That is an emotional response, not a rational one.
Otherwise, don't you find it a bit barbaric that in this day and age we are still killing people for killing people? Or worse yet, justifying it based on cost? The United States, land of the free, home of the brave, sits with Iraq and Singapore (among a few other notables) as the last countries to put people to death. Now that the Grim Reaper is in the White House, I guess it makes sense that we will turn it up a notch.
I've seen enough death this week, thanks.
My $0.02.

[SkySlut 0]

as far as becoming a martyr...you should hang out up here in the sticks, man there are a lot of gun-toting psychopaths up here and in the US. True they are a minority, but remember what happened with Waco??? Those nuts up in Minnesota or wherever when nuts. Didnt some other organization go ballistic on the anniversary of Waco, too or was that McVay and his bombing...anyways point being, there are a lot of people with screws loose and I think that this execution could be a rallying call for them. McVay honestly believes that his death will bring out "the rebel alliance to fight the Evil Empire" (or whatever nonsense he believes in). Hey, the US has its issues, but if you dont like it move to Canada...there is no reason to go bombing innocent people & children. He's just a jackass.
-Slut
"I'll jump anything!"

[Pammi 0]

Against my better judgement also, I am only going to say that if people had done to them what they've done to others' only then can they come close to understanding the depth of their actions. I think getting a shot and going to sleep is a far cry from what the people getting it have usually done to their victim(s) and their families. If it had been one my children in that daycare, they'd have to lock him up to keep him safe from me.
Just my personal feelings.
"The question is not whether we will die, but how we will live."
http://trak.to/skydivechick

[mikefarmer 0]

You crybabies that want to whine about taking a life don't have to be involved. Stay home and pretend everything is rosey in the world. If you don't want your tax dollars used to execute this man, I have the plan for you. Spring the bastard, give him a ride back here to good old OKC, then get the hell out of town. After that, we can all forget about this nonsense and go jump.
Mike
Hey, I'm not packed,
what's in that one?
Never mind, I'll jump it!

[pyke 0]

cdunham, I didn't know anyone in the bombing. I am motivated by all the time and energy we put into something that in the end should be dealt with swiftly.
Take the OJ case for example (another can of worms entirely, but bear with me). Taxpayers spent millions of dollars mounting a case and over a full year, trying to dot every I and cross every T to be sure justice was served, and in the end, the justice system looked like it was bought.
I am an economist at heart, but I still believe in the notion of an eye for an eye. I think about it only in terms of what is it going to be like when he meets his maker and his conscience is clear because he had a good defense team??? That isn't justice. That is hypocrisy. We believe everyone should have the "right" to a fair and speedy trial...EXCEPT if you were either rich or were going to further the career of the hotshot lawyer who took you on as a defense case. Then you deserve the longest, most expensive thing our government can provide. It's a crock. What about the local car thief? He gets suspected, tried, convicted and processed in a matter of months. That may not be fair, but it is speedy. Just because he attacked a federal site, doesn't mean we have to prolong this.
And, as far as taking a humans life...my only answer is I think his ONE is ample compared to the 50+ he took.
Kia Kaha,
Pyke
NZPF A-2584

[Doasfu 0]

Quote

I agree with you wholeheartedly Doasfu, a human being does deserve a COMPLETE defense, but the man admitted his involement (could be wrong, but that is how it came across to the public). And, if he wants to die, then hey, who are we to stand in his way.

Hey Pyke,
I agree with what you're saying here, and he did admit guilt. However, he asked to be killed after being convicted at the original trial. He may have chosen to forsake his appeals, but that's not the same as allowing himself to be killed on the basis of a faulty trial, however miniscule the fault may have been.
Don't get me wrong, I think he's guilty and I think the conviction will be upheld. Although I am against the death penaly, even in this extreme case, I have no doubt he will be put to death. But even in spite of his admission of guilt, he has the legal right to examine the evidence against him, and five days just is not enough time to do that.
Dan

[MC208B 0]

The grim reaper in the white house? Give me a break! Just because Bush was gov of Texas and Texas executes more people than other states, he didn't sentence all that scum to death, the courts did. As for old Timothy, he admitted he did it and the part about the "collateral damage" i.e. children really sucks. He should be strapped to a chair and about a quarter pound of C4 administered instead of an injection! Not to change the subject, but it's a beautiful day, I'm leaving work and heading to Mollala for some jumps, later.

[pyke 0]

MC208B, you suck. I am at work in corporate hell and I can't even go out to jump after work because I have to wait for my reserve to arrive to give it to my rigger (currently switching my old reserve to my main and have bought a new reserve)
Kia Kaha,
Pyke
NZPF A-2584

[kbuesching 0]

Good judgement aside...

Quote

... human life that is going to be ended.

- There is nothing human about this guy.
- The man is guilty.
- He wants to die.
- The only reason that there was an appeal at all is because it is automatic when there's a death sentence involved.
- Should someone look over those papers and see if there's something that'll get this guy off? YES, but then kill the bastard. He earned it.
... and BTW... Lethal injection is too kind. He should suffer the way those children did... maybe drop a truckload of bricks on him so he'll know what he put them through before he meets his maker.
Nuff said
KB

[PalmettoTiger 1]

Quote

Which I think televising this thing would be exactly what he wants.

My understanding is that it's not going to be publicly televised. The confusion is because there are too many family members of victims that want to witness the execution. Usually executions are witnessed by a representative of the press, a representative from the prison system, and religious representative chosen by the condemned. Also, the condemned's family and the victim's family are given the option to view the execution. With 168 victims in the bombing, there's not enough space in the witness room for all the affected people to see it. So they're using closed-circuit (i.e. non-broadcast) TV to allow every family member a chance to witness the execution.
Pyke, as for the Justice Dept's decision to delay the execution, I think it's a good move. You don't want to give ammo to the other crazy militia groups - "Hey, they railroaded him! It was a conspiracy! Evidence was withheld until after he died!" Etc. etc.
Blues, squares,
PTiger

[cloud9 0]

Quote

And, as far as taking a humans life...my only answer is I think his ONE is ample compared to the 50+ he took.

April 19 1995 9:03am a bomb went off in the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Ok. Killing 168 people.
Please don't forget these victims!!

[SkySlut 0]

Now why were all the networks clammoring to be one of the two network anchors that were allowed to cover this??? I remember that McVay wanted it to be televised, I just didnt know if they were actually going to do it or not. I guess that the networks are all excited just because it is such a big deal.
-Slut
"I'll jump anything!"

[cdunham 0]

Damn, I really don't read this board to get into political debates, but I just can't help myself.

Quote

And, as far as taking a humans life...my only answer is I think his ONE is ample compared to the 50+ he took.

So how many would be too much? Two? Fifty? What if the bombing was a result of a conspiracy of 200 people all acting equally? Should they all be put to death? Is the death of 250 people somehow better than fifty or fifty-one?

Quote

I still believe in the notion of an eye for an eye.

What about "two wrongs don't make a right"? (Oooh, I should get a debating medal for that one!). Seriously, though, what does this buy us as a society?
There are traditionally four answers to this. First, the bad guy is now completely and absolutely decommissioned. There is zero chance he will repeat his crime. Second, it serves as a deterrent to future crimes by showing the Bad Things that happen to Bad People. The third is that it provides "relief for the victims' families". Finally, there is the argument that you made about the cost of incarceration vs. execution.
To answer these in order:
1. Decommissioning the Bad Guy. I think we can assume that criminals on Death Row are reasonably secure, and not a further threat to society. Yes, there is a chance they could work out an escape, witness the recent case in Texas that resulted in the death of police officers. However, the chances of this are quite small, and the numbers of people that are killed by escaped lifers is miniscule compared to the number executed. Please don't compare the "value" of these lives, I will never buy that argument.
2. Deterrent. Do I even need to address this? This is a very broken argument. If anything, the publicity and noteriety associated with Death Penalty cases is an incentive to some. In any case, the general mental disorder that exists in the moment of most capital crimes would seem to be in conflict with rational thought processes weighing pros and cons (so to speak). Also, if we really wanted to show the cost of crime, we would make the executions public, graphic, and horrifying. That's what hangings and beheadings have traditionally been about. We want to make it some sterilized procedure because if we really saw it, we would see how truly perverse it is (and rightly so).
3. Relief to the Families. This is the emotional reaction that I referred to in my first post. What it really means is that we get to take revenge. Like I say, I would want this if it was my family that was hurt. In fact, I would want to take the matter into my own hands, in certain cases. As public policy, however, this leads down a slippery slope to anarchy via vigilantism (sp?). The OKC solution that a previous poster suggested.
4. Cost. This is the ultimate inhumane argument. What value do you place on human life? Even if you believe that capital punishment is moral on other grounds, how much is it worth to ensure that we don't kill an innocent? Are we willing to let a few slip through in the name of economic efficiency? My God!
Anyway, we add nothing new to the debate here. This has all been gone over a million times by people more steeped in it than us. At the end of the day, we as a society have decided that killing is OK in some circumstances. I only hope that we evolve beyond that some day.
Carl
P.S. Can we get back to the pull-out vs. throw-out debate?

• Quote

[Doasfu 0]

Quote

- There is nothing human about this guy.

Dehumanizing someone to allow ourselves to kill them is a dangerous path to tread upon.
Dan

[SkySlut 0]

humans are just self-glorified monkeys...
-Slut
"I'll jump anything!"

[pyke 0]

Quote

April 19 1995 9:03am a bomb went off in the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Ok. Killing 168 people.

sorry cloud9, I knew it was a lot, but I didn't want to be more false than I possibly have been.

Quote

I only hope that we evolve beyond that some day.

AMEN. But this is unlikely with such heinous acts of "animal" brutality still going on.
Sorry to get political on you guys, I don't mean to - especially on a friday, but DAMN, this shite pisses me off.
I know we aren't going to settle anything on a ng about skydiving, but god, enough already. Kill de sum bitch and get it over with.
Anyway, definately throw out...it's more fun to pack!!
Kia Kaha,
Pyke
NZPF A-2584

[cdunham 0]

Quote

I know we aren't going to settle anything on a ng about skydiving, but god, enough already.

I agree.
Pull-out. Safer.

[cloud9 0]

Quote

Damn, I really don't read this board to get into political debates, but I just can't help myself

You bring up many interesting points. The same as most of those apposed to the death penalty. However the one you guys never seem to be in touch with is this.
In this country many people who are convicted and senteced to death have their death sentence commuted to life. Case in point Charles Manson.
Many people in this country who are sentenced to life have their sentence reduced to something less then. Like 20 yrs. I personaly arrested a man in Ponca City Ok for the shotgun execution of his wife. He recieved a life sentence and served just under 10 yrs. He is back on the street.
Do you want these people living next to you? Your family? your kids? I truely hope your answer is no!
You can't erraticate bleeding heart liberals, so you will never stop a large percentage of the prison population from getting out at some time.
And no Charles Manson has not been released. However he has had parole hearings and could be released!! Where is going to go if that happens?
Last but not least. The Governer or President have the authority to pardon prisoners. Its an unfortunate fact that this discresion has been abused. Look at the last days of Bill Clinton!!
Well Hey its the weekend down here in the south the skies are blue the winds are right, and I'm outta here. Keep em flying.
Bleau skies