Newbie Questions

[fred 0]

I'm a complete newbie. Forgive me if these have been asked before, or please direct me to the proper place to look. If you must flame, do so, but I'd rather you just ignore my posts.
So, my first jump was on saturday. I went through the training and did a static line from 3500. The whole story about the jump is here (for at least a week, after that, find the 'August 5, 2001' entry). After the first jump, we went ahead and got our second out of the way (Hell, if we didn't have things to do that night, I might have gone for three.)
Well, I'm hooked. We're going next weekend, and pretty much planning on making it a weekly thing.
But I have a few questions, or at least curiosities.
1) I got a bunch of, "You'll probably jump first" comments at the DZ. Hell, they even took out a scale. I'm 6', weight 200lb, is it really that big for a skydiver? Looking around at the other divers, it didn't seem like it, but I'm really wondering if dropping 20# would make my life as a skydiver easier.
1b) What does it mean that I "have to ask for an 8 or 9"? Does that mean I have a larger canopy due to my apparent obesity? Or does it describe something else about the parachute? Do I have to pay attention to this if at some point in the future I'm interested in buying (possibly used) equipment?
2) After the jumps, my arms were really tired. Now, I have good upper body strength, but it wore me out. My friend who jumped with me didn't understand at all. I have some theories: First, he says he crabbed along on the way down, while I was trying to see how fast I could get the thing to spin. Second, I weigh more. Does this mean it takes more effort to pull the, er, steering things (what're they called?)? Or is it possible that I'm pulling the straps in such a way that it's taking more effort?
3) At such a low level, how many jumps could you actually do in a day? Is it advisable to take time off between jumps to let everything sink in? Or can I do what I want to do and go balls-to-walls-get-me-jumping-lots-so-I-can-freefall?
4) As I mentioned, even on my first jump, I was a bit of a daredevil while I was floating down. I wanted to put that canopy through its paces. My question is: is it possible to do anything with such basic controls (just the turn straps), that would cause a major malfunction? Or once the canopy is open and stable does it necessarily stay that way? I'm not talking about doing low turns, but I'm wondering if going from flares to tight spins to flares, etc., could put me in a position I don't want to be in.
5) Is there any sort of an on-line glossary that will explain what ya'all are talking about? Sometimes you use terms that I don't yet understand, and I'd like to be able to look them up. The rec.skydiving FAQ didn't really help.
I'm sure there's more, but I'll see how these go over before I ask my more asinine questions.

[PLFKING 3]

Hey Fred --
Welcome to our world !

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If you must flame, do so,

We try not to do that a lot here.....

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I'm 6', weight 200lb, is it really that big for a skydiver?

No, I'm 6'1", 205.....abd there are a LOT of jumpers out there both taller and heavier than me.

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) What does it mean that I "have to ask for an 8 or 9"?

I have never heard of this (unless it's a reference to harness size, or something)

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After the jumps, my arms were really tired.

If you were trying to spin it a lot, this is natural. Most first-jumpers would just cruise along, and make gentle turns, for fear of collapsing a canopy, or twisting it up, etc.....on my first jumps, I was afraid i would "do something" to it to cause myself harm, so I was very docile. If you were really working it, that would explain the tiredness. Burying a toggle requires some strength, especially to hold it there.

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At such a low level, how many jumps could you actually do in a day?

I would think 2-3 would work. This is all new, and you should give yourself some time to reflect on what you did right or wrong before the next jump. You should try to jump as often as possible, however, while you're a student, so you can remember what you're learning, and stay current on your emergency procedures, and the practicing of same.

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is it possible to do anything with such basic controls (just the turn straps), that would cause a major malfunction?

If you're jumping a Manta or something equally large, it will be hard for you to input enough to get in a lot of trouble, but of course, anything radical COULD develop into something you don't want. The big thing here to remember is moderation while you're learning. Also, while practicing up high with your flares and stalls, be sure to let the toggles up slowly after burying them -- if you release them quickly, you could encounter some problems. You always want to be in control of your canopy.

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Is there any sort of an on-line glossary that will explain what ya'all are talking about?

I would strongly advise you to read the "Safety and Training" forum on this site -- it helped me immeasurably when I was a student, and still does to this day. One of the best things about this site is that the folks are willing to share their mistakes in the hopes that it will help others, and I've always been grateful for that.
The PLF Emir

[freaksister2 0]

Hi Fred! Well, I am not an instructor or jumpmaster or anything. I am a low time jumper - a year in the sport and 60 jumps (this is NOT a lot). But I will at least give you a kind word and tell you a couple of things I hope will help. I read your post and went and read the story about your first jump on your website.
First, nobody here will flame you! If they do I'll not only flame 'em back but I'll go kick their ass in person!! hehe This is not. rec.skydiving! We do get in little petty arguments and have little tiffs once in awhile but nothing too major so far and hopefully it will stay that way. Anyway, we like to be able to say that newbies can come here and be welcomed right in.
There are several things in your post that concern me. The number one thing is: the questions you have about what is safe to do under your open parachute and what is not. You need to seek the advice of one or more of your instructors. One thing I noticed in your jump story was the question of whether you could flare while you were in a spin. I would say don't try this at all but defnitely not under 1000 feet! Don't try much of anything under 1000-500 feet except really pussy-feeling turns. SLOW, gentle turns. Probably heard that before but it is the biggest killer of jumpers. Other stuff that you can do under a *particular* kind of parachute will vary on the kind of chute. Fortunately you'll be under big docile canopies as a student and hopefully for your first rig too! Which brings me to part 2!
I would say that you are NOT a fat, big or otherwise unusual jumper by normal standards, if you are six feet and 200 pounds! Several guys on this website would probably be bigger than you! AggieDave, Bwilling, etc. I jump with a guy who is six four and weighs about 235, and we can actually fall TOGETHER!! ;-) (and I am NOT that size, trust me!) I don't know what those people at your dz meant by a # 8 or 9 but maybe that is just their way of numbering student rigs. Most dz's number the rigs. An 8 or 9 might have the bigger chutes in them, and they want you to be safe so they say, better get the 9 (if it has like a 288 sq.ft canopy in it or something). I would sincerely hope you don't get the wrong impression by your JMs! If you want to lose twenty pounds, fine but I wouldn't say it is necessary. Most likely, any comments about your stomach were all in jest! Skydivers LOVE beer and you will see some HEALTHY beer bellies among them!!
Thirdly, a book that will help you immensely is "The Skydiver's Handbook" by Dan Poynter. I think the website is like http:// http://www.parapublishing.com but you can also buy it through Amazon.com. Just do a search. This book is almost universally recommended as an indispensable book for beginners or even more experienced jumpers who have never read it. Best of all for you, it has a glossary of common skydiving terms. I know there are some places on the internet you can find them too but off the top of my head I can't remember them! Does anybody out there remember the URL to that old website you could link to from rec.skydiving? Sigh...DUDE, no matter what, I highly suggest getting The Skydiver's Handbook. I got a copy from the dropzone. You might do the same. Also, download a copy of the SIM (Skydiver's Information Manual) from the USPA website http://www.uspa.org It is like twenty bucks if you buy it but can download it for free. Also, don't be afraid to ask us what things mean. We'll try to help.
Finally, please communicate with your instructors and experienced jumpers at your dz. A #1 rule though: I was always taught to take your instructor's word over anyone else's, even someone who has five thousand jumps! (hehe in other words, don't listen to me?! LOL) If you want to know what gear to buy or what turns to do under canopy ask the people in charge!! That is their job and they should NEVER EVER mind helping you out!
Oh, P.S. I don't know about the arm thing. My arms get sore after making jumps, but (AGAIN) might ask your JM! I am not trying to pawn you off, just re-inforcing that they are the best people to ask questions! Not the ONLY just the BEST! Also, make as many jumps in one day as you are comfortable with. The more the better is usually the consensus. I think as a student you will probably get exhausted after about four but I have seen a guy do his entire AFF in one day (8 jumps)! Try to at least make two. One of my JMs told me once, if you only afford four jumps a month, then make them all at the same time, not one each weekend! Don't jump if you are sick (especially with sinus problems) on medication, are extremely tired. You need all your faculties!
Have fun! I did static line also, and you'll be on freefall before you know it!
Welcome to dz.com!
Hope we can help you out!
Sis

[PLFKING 3]

Yes....I forgot all about Poynter's book (hard to believe since I've read it cover-to-cover about 6 times now)...it has a HUGE amount of info in it.
And now that I recall, Sis referred me to that book almost one year ago to the day, when I made my first post to these forums.....the time sure flies when you're having fun !
And Sis is serious when she says she'll kick anyone's ass who flames you....I know she'll do it ! (I liked Freaksister #1 better, tho........)
The PLF General

[Michele 1]

Hey, welcome to the sky, and welcome to the boards. As a very new jumper, I still have no idea what the heck I'm doing, although these boards have taught me immense amounts of technical as well as real-life stuff.
And all the rest of what PLF and Freaksis said (especially about the book - invaluable).
Best rule of thumb? Stay smart, and ask all the questions. Ask them here, and ask them of your jumpmasters; and if you get different answers from people, trust your jm's. They are in the air (and the plane) with you, they are there for you, that's what you're paying them for, so use them as the best resource. DOn't be concerned that you have asinine questions. Those sometimes are the most important ones.
Finding your limits is really fun, but finding them out once you're past them is not fun. It can be painful. And it is scary.
I think some of the soreness happens because of adrenaline dump. I am a black belt, but I get more tired and sore from one jump than from a 4 round tournement. There's something about the adrenaline dump that happens in the sky that is unique (this is just my very unscientific opinion - what do I know?) and can cause muscle fatigue and mental fatigue without you ever really knowing it. Take a break between jumps, and really pay close attention to your body. You may be able to take it. I can't, at least not yet (as these guys can tell you, though, for me it is far more a mental thing than a physical thing).
Those steering things are called toggles. They are important. They are our friends Be safe, be smart, and fly.
Ciel bleu-
Michele

[pilotdave 0]

I'm also a newbie with 30 jumps, and I jump a canopy with probably a lower loading than you (around .6), so that might make a difference. But, I've pretty much tried everything I could think of with the canopy. On my latest few jumps I started playing with the risers to see what they make the canopy do. I have had some "weird" stuff happen, but nothing dangerous. Nobody has really been able to explain it to me yet, but occasionally when I do a hard turn I'll end up swinging forward, so that i'm spiralling down with my back to the ground. When I was using rigs with a ripcord and spring loaded pilot chute, the pilot chute would sometimes end up in front of the canopy, wrapped over the nose. It's pretty wild because I never see it coming. I expect to start off slowly, and end up in a diving spiral. It realy freaked me out the first couple times but now I realize i can just let up on the toggle a little and everything is ok. A friend of mine with about 10 jumps gave himself line twists while under canopy during a hard turn. I'm not sure how he ended up doing that. It's never happened to me. I'm no expert but I think with student canopies, you can feel free to play around all you want, as long as you're plenty high. I dont think it's possible to do something so bad you'd have to cut away, but just give yourself room to just in case.

[Albatross 0]

O.K. here we go I am definitely with Sis on this one #1 thing is ask your instructors. They are here to make sure that you are safe and that you learn. Ask them everything that you wonder about even if it seems stupid because in this sport panning and thinking of everything before hand is what will make you an old skydiver.
The numbers are likely the way that the DZ keeps track of the rigs and they will probably get larger with the main size. Right now you want to be jumping a very large rig 280 sq ft + for the first few at least. As for hurting yourself under canopy, YES YOU CAN. It is possible to give yourself line twist by making hard reversing turns (going hard right then hard left) but is hard under the docile canopies that you are flying. So most likely anything that you want to try try high say 2500+ that way you have an out. The only thing that you don't want ot do is get radical below 500' until you have a good feel for the canopy. As for the comment about being in front of the canopy that is bacause you are suspended and the canopy doesn't always move at the same speed as you do. IF you are diving and then flare you keep going fast and the canopy slows and sometimes you swing past it.
Remember that there is never a dumb question except for the one that you didin't ask and you need the answer to in the air. Keep posting the questions.
Flare Damn it!!!!!
Albatross

[rainman 0]

Hiya Fred,
Welcome to the wonderful world of skydiving!
There's not much I can add to the good advice that's already been given here, but I'll try anyway!
I've read the story on your site, and I almost wet myself! My colleagues are now totally convinced that I am a nutcase! Are you a standup-comedian or something?
I am 6'2" and 200 lbs, and although I sometimes am a bit envious of those fly-weights that jump a sleeping-bag sized canopy and fly it like a student canopy, I can assure you that I know many skydivers that are taller and/or heavier than I am.
Also, *most* people I talked to didn't do everything like they were drilled on their first jump. ( I remember counting, but I counted so fast that I could still touch the JM if I wanted to by the time I had reached '3') It's good knowing you can easily walk away from an unflared landing, but I would suggest you give this 'flaring' thing a try. Remember, even if you have ten instructors talking to you on ten different radio's, it's still your behind up there in the air, and if you think you're 7' off the ground, just wait one more second and flare! Just remember not to let up on the toggles when you find you've flared too high.
Have fun, stay safe!
Ramon

[PhillyKev 0]

Being a newbie myself (32 jumps) I have to agree with everything said above. This was all advice that I received and worked well for me.
Regarding reading material, don't forget about the rest of dropzone.com besides the forum. Go to the home page, then click on safety and read all the articles listed there. There's even a glossary of terms.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[PhreeZone 15]

Welcome to DZ.com!! Have few jumps myself (163) I can only recommend that before your next jump you sit down and talk to your instructors about any canopy questions that you might have. I wish I had listened to my instructors more closely when they were there devoiting all their time to me. I had to spend a lot of time and money to learn skills that I could have picked up on from my JM's.(Accuracy on landings I have learned that what works for one person might not work well for another so always ask for a second opinion if your not sure about something. The difference between going home alive and going home in a body bag might be your willingness to ask a question and learn something that was not directly taught to you in your FJC. There is no such thing as a stupid question in this sport. Stupid actions yes, stupid questions no.
I never took a static line course or jumped a Cessna so I cant help you there but if you really want to learn about this wonderful sport hang around A DZ as much as you can to observe and ask questions. BTW the people making a high speed landing have lots of jumps and dont even THINK about turning under 200 feet unless your instructors tell you too or you need to turn slightly to avoid an object. We've had enough deaths under a good canopy to last forever.
Blue Skies!!
BTW Sis why the new account?
Do I HAVE to do another raft dive???

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[freaksister2 0]

new account b/c my mum's computer doesn't load the new version of dz.com properly. i can't log in. so when i am not at home i have to use freaksister2.
sis

[fred 0]

Thank you all for your input. You sure are a friendly bunch.
First, I know that I need to ask my JM/Coach these questions. Unfortunately, the questions didn't really come to me until long after the jump (I was still in an adrenaline-induced haze). While dz.com is available 24/7, my JM is only available when I'm there.
Since the jump, I just can't stop thinking about it. My concentration is shot, I just keep hearing, "Get out and hang!" It made working today very difficult. My friend thinks we'll be out there again sometime midweek, which means my first freefall could be as soon as saturday, assuming I don't screw up my practice ripcord pulls.
I got a line twist on my first jump (I think that's the correct term, like twisting on a swing? Not a major mal, but enough to raise the pulse of a first-time jumper), and I think that's a bit of a blessing. At least I know what to expect.
Anyhow, some specific questions. First, thanks for the reassurance that I'm not a bohemoth when it comes to my weight. I'm still curious about whether there are advantages to being lighter. If I'm under a larger canopy, does that mean that I can't turn as quickly or ...? I don't know what else...
Rainman, thanks for the kudos on my story. I try to be funny, but usually fail. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Well, I'm off to read the rest of the site. And to rehearse my practice pulls. And to dream about going up (well, down) again.

[Albatross 0]

The question of size of the canopy and how well it preforms is not an absolute one. How fast a conopy flys and how "sporty" it is is the combination of design and wing load. Some canopies are true squares and are stable but not too quick. Others are tapered or even eliptical and that makes then more agressive in their turns. It is kind of like having a sports car verse a sedan. They may be the same size and even hve the same horse power but they behave diferently decause of the way that they are set up.
Wing load is the weight per sq foot you are hanging from the canopy. This is a really critical factor and has a huge effect on how the canopy flys. Most geginers load a canopy at like 0.5 lbs/sq ft. On the other hand some extream canopy fliers load at 3.0 or greater. The load is one of the key factors in how fast the canopy flys and thus how fast it turns.
Flare Damn it!!!!!
Albatross

[Pammi 0]

Hey, all I have to say is welcome! I can't tell you anything that you haven't already heard hear, but feel free to ask us anything you like and we'll do our best. I want to reiterate what Freaksis said though, be sure to ask your JM these questions. They won't laugh at you, promise :) We were all newbies at one time. And even JM's will tell you to ignore what other skydivers at your own DZ tell you! I just listened politely, said thank you then did what my JM/coach told me regardless. They have jumped with you and they know you.
Good luck!
P
Merrick's SCR Ceremony

[mbolism 0]

Hi Fred! I did my first static line jump June 3, 2000. I felt pretty lost about a lot of things but the best advice I've found is what most of the people here have written, check out the safety and training boards, listen to your JM's and most of all-don't get ahead of yourself as far as being a student...I have 70 jumps now, and just downsized my canopy and started freeflying, but I don't try anything too risky or crazy. This is a sport that you have to survive in. It's not like anything else, and ignorance can kill you. I am soooo tempted to learn to swoop asap, and my boyfriend ( a much more experienced jumper) is very nervous about it, but that's good because it keeps me from doing something stupid. Hopefully the jumpers and JM's at your dz will look out for you and your safety the way mine have. Don't get ahead of yourself, no matter how tempting it is to try all the new, crazy things you see and hear other more experienced jumpers doing. You will be able to do them in time, but only if you take your time and learn in the correct sequence. There's a reason for going slow, practicing and learning. Just remember, all those swoopers and freefliers were just like you once, and someday you'll be there, but only with patience...trust me, I'm the most impatient skydiver in the world! On my third jump, my JM had to hold my legs in the plane because as soon as the door was open I started crawling out before he told me to!!!! All the patience and discipling will pay off-I promise! It did for me! For now, think conservative!!! Live to keep jumping and get better every time. Good luck!!! If you hear any terms you don't understand and need an explanation, e-mail me! Good luck and blue skies!
those who fear nothing may not live...those who fear everything may never live.

[mbolism 0]

I almost forgot...just hang out at the dz and watch and listen besides jumping! That way the adrenaline rush won't be there and you'll remember to ask all the right questions. Also, make a lot of notes to yourself. I love to look back at my logbook and laugh at the funny things I wrote. I put funny comments as well as stuff I wondered about. Someday you'll look back at it and crack up. Just remember, there are no stupid questions. One of the things you don't ask because it seems obvious may be the thing that saves your life! Oh, also, I still get strange muscle soreness in odd places. My boyfriend had a good explanation. He said no matter what you do on the ground, it will never compare to what the air does to you, it twists and turns and moves you and your whole body in ways you could never do on the ground. Add to that once you're in freefall for a minute, you're doing these odd body positions at 120 or more mph...! When else can you think of when you are in an arch with your arms out and bent with your thumbs about to go in your ears!?!? OK, no bizarre sex stories from any of you in response to that!!!!
those who fear nothing may not live...those who fear everything may never live.

[fred 0]

FYI, I did jump #3 today. We were hoping to go on tuesday as well, which would have worked out nice to put jump 5 and 6 on saturday. (They make us do our last practice pull and first freefall (hop and pop?) on the same day). As it is, I will either do 1 jump or 3 on saturday. Or, more likely, do two jumps on saturday and just repeat #5 on another day.
I hurt my shoulder on the jump, though. Not sure what I did to it. I have a feeling its related to my chest strap being too lose. I found the shoulder pads getting in my way on my turns.
Oh, and I did get my practice pull. Apparently my arch needs some work, but at least I got it. My friend wasn't so lucky. Although he was told that he had a beautiful arch, he didn't remember to pull until the chute was already square overhead.
I also had my first experience of not jumping first. I think I prefer being first out. Scooting around in that cessna is not fun. And when that door opens, my heart leaps, and as the second one out, I get that experience twice. I don't care for it.
And on another note, my JM today was quite a hottie, and that made the experience even better.
Some things didn't go so well. The wind was greater and the JM let us out too soon, so we were holding most of the way down. And I couldn't find the target for a 'long' time (it was, of course, behind me since I was holding, but for some reason that didn't occur to me. So instead of looking around like I wanted to, I kept scanning the ground. There was a storm front out coming across lake michigan that I would have liked to see, but I missed it.
I thought I was going to have a perfect stand-up landing, but I fell forward (into the peas, though!).
I found the experience of hanging out at the dropzone a lot more pleasant this time. Since it was a weekday, there were only a few people there, and it was easier to get into a conversation with some of the more experienced jumpers.
I'm very excited about this weekend though. The temperature is supposed to drop to the low 80's, which will make hanging around in the DZ a lot more comfortable.
Well, that's enough random thoughts about my jump. For those who'd still like to read my story of day one, I put it in the features section of my page, so you can read it here for all eternity.
Good jumps, all.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I hurt my shoulder on the jump, though. Not sure what I did to it. I have a feeling its related to my chest strap being too lose. I found the shoulder pads getting in my way on my turns.

I had the same misconception regarding the equipment during my studend jumps. Actually, the chest strap really only keeps the rig secure during FF then keeps you from falling out the front under canopy. The tightness of it has nothing to do with the shoulder pads, that's controlled by the leg straps. My shoulder pads kept coming up really high and the chest strap would ride up to under my chin after deploying. I kept tightening the chest strap more and more on each jump with no improvement. The problem was the leg straps were too loose. If the laterals are adjustable on the rig you're using, make the leg straps shorter, or find a rig with a smaller harness. That should fix the problem for you.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[fred 0]

Forgive my ignorance, but, "laterals"?

[mbolism 0]

They are on the sides, near waist-high hip level... they are like the leg straps, only they tighten the container vertically...ask your JM to check them before you jump again, mine had to tighten mine every time. It's probably not something you should do on your own anyway, because it's easier for someone standing facing you to do. Don't be afraid to ask...you'll be a lot more comfortable! Also, STRETCH STRETCH STRETCH before you jump!!!! If you've ever worked out before, do the same kind of stretches, that will help you not pull muscles, stc. while jumping. Remember, it is a sport! Have fun this weekend! I'm headed out to the dz in a little while!
those who fear nothing may not live...those who fear everything may never live.

[fred 0]

I'll add another newbie question.
On my right shoulder, there is something that looks like a metal clasp and a small ribbon. It's a bit difficult to get a good look. When we asked about it, the JM told us, "It's a safety device. It would take a long time to explain." We were in a hurry to jump before sunset, so we didn't push it. And by the time we landed, we forgot all about it.
What is it? What does it do?

[Watcher 0]

Reserve Static Line (RSL). The RSL, when you cutaway, the risers take that like clamp with it, the other end is connected to a metal loop that pulls you reserve pin for you. Im not a fan of the RSL cause if you need time to get clear of your malfunction the RSL does not give it to you unless you disconnenct it first, but that takes time you might not have.

[DZBone 0]

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"It's a safety device. It would take a long time to explain."

This is an unacceptable answer, imo, unless you have shown yourself to be dense, which I doubt.

[fred 0]

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This is an unacceptable answer, imo, unless you have shown yourself to be dense, which I doubt.

After all I've read on this site and other places, I think this is perfectly acceptable. There's plenty of emergency maneuvres that they don't teach newbie fliers (like myself). Considering how much of what they did teach me I forgot, I don't think that advanced techniques would have increased my chances of survival.
They'll explain it to me tomorrow, I'm sure.
(oh, I've been meaning to ask. Are any dz.comers from Michigan? I was at the DZ yesterday and they were all talking about Quincy, which turns out isn't far away.)

[Jessica 0]

I think it's pretty common not to explain the intricacies of AADs and RSLs to students, only because instructors don't want students to depend on them, or even know that they're there in some cases.
If I didn't understand skydiving, I might think, if I became unstable or disoriented, that the "automatic puller thingie" would do it for me, and not bother. You see what I mean?
On my first AFF jump, not only was I not told about any of the safety equipment, but I didn't even know I would have a radio until it was slipped on me during gear-up. I think I was better for it.