The new skydiving trend?

[2shay 0]

Skydive dallas allows only 180's and below in their main landing area, and if you want to do more you land in another area. This is effective, but obviously it will not prevent all mistakes and bad decisisons. Everyone needs to educate other jumpers and themselves as much as possible. Accidents happen, we must educate.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[ladydyver 0]

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So, do you state that a WL BSR can solve attitude an problem?

That is not what I said. I said - "do a search on 'wingloading BSR' in these forums." Why do a search on those words? Because a search using those words would turn up several threads in which the concept of requiring canopy control courses has been discussed. Which was what the person I was replying to was asking about.

Do you think it would be beneficial for the S&TA's to be encouraging canopy control courses at the DZ annually? I don't know if it would help or not....we had 15 students graduate last year...all are jumping this year. I just was wondering if it was at least offered that maybe it could be used as a resource for people....although I do understand that cost does play into it. I don't know...I guess I am just searching for answers to help solve the problem. To protect me and the ones that I love I guess I will just keep pushing for jumpers to educated themselves.....and to constantly keep my head on a swivel.

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[dontiego 0]

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Skydive dallas allows only 180's and below in their main landing area.

Not like I know much about swooping, but...
If you do a 180 landing, then you would be flying exactly against the pattern (you are with the wind in your back where the others are in final direction into the wind) before starting your turn, won't you?

Isn't that more dangerous than a 270?

edit for clarity

"We call on the common man to rise up in revolt against this evil of typographical ignorance."
http://bancomicsans.com

[phoenixlpr 0]

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If you do a 180 landing, then you would be landing exactly against the pattern (final direction into the wind) before starting your turn, won't you?

I hope at least you know what you want to ask.

If you land with a 180 degree hook, your setup is starting in the opposite direction of final of the normal landing pattern.

[yardhippie 0]

This is a bit if a general response to a few posts here, and to Ian's analogy of traffic control at busy airports.
I have stepped up my involvement at the DZ I spend most of my time at. I will continue to step up that involvement until I stop seeing stupid shit or the send me packing.

Just as with ALL diciplines of skydiving swooping is here, and its not going away anytime soon. While separate landing areas second passes or low passes for them only segregates that particular portion of skydiving. That creates resentment and animosity amongst our family. How many of you have been on a two or three way freefly dive when a large RW formation was on an Otter and you ended up with a long spot? Then you say: "damn RW folks, hosed our spot"

Oh well, thats the way the sport works. WE as a GROUP, have determined that the safest exit order is for that group to be out first. We understand that.

We must do the same with landing patterns and canopy piloting. We often preach plan the dive and dive the plan, but how many of YOU on those larger dives have continued to plan after the break off portion of a dive? Is that not the remainder of that dive? Shouldnt that be part of the plan? Shouldnt EVERY SINGLE JUMPER, be aware of how many others on that dive had larger or lower wingloadings than themselves so you can plan for when in the vertical separation you should be?

We all have to understand what those other pilots are thinking. We have to have something more detailed than: "left-hand pattern, hangar on the ______". If our heads are on a swivel, like they should be, we can easily see the tiny HP canopies coming out of the sky. The large squares are even more obvious.

I know I have a fairly high deployment altitude, 3500', and I also have a very high WL. I know that I need time for: potential malfunctions, stowing my gear, getting prepared for entering the pattern, AND seeing what the other traffic is doing. BUT, even if im 1000'above some other jumper with a WL of 1.4, its not going to be possible to hold in brakes and stay above them. Hell, I can deploy at 14,000 and still land just after the tandems.

I understand that this means I cannot always make some great turn for a swoop. I also know that it is so common for someone on a less agressive canopy at a lighter WL spiral down to my level. That is unnacceptable. If I was the higer canopy, and I could hold in brakes to maintain that vertical separation I would have to do that.

If you've ever seen the planes land at ATL airport (there are 5 parallel runways there), you'd see that no two planes land at the exact same time, and its one of the busiest airports in the country.

The 'problem' is not about these pilots should be HERE, and they can only do THIS. It is about education, and understanding. We ALL have to pay attention to those we are sharing the sky with, we HAVE to have a PLAN. Why is it so hard to take 30 seconds to discuss who has what WL, where they like to deplooy, and what type of landing they are anticipating on performing. Thirty seconds people, talk to each other. Make a plan.

As far as performance landings in bigway dives, I believe its up to everyone on the dive to determine what is safely possible and what is not. There is no golden number of where you can say: "nothing more than a 90 or 180 or whatever." its an evaluation. We are able to save our lives again and again. Look at the facts, listen to your peers, assume nothing, because complancency kills.

I had a close call this past weekend. Those that have seen the video, know how sickening it was. The other jumper was a good friend of mine and we nearly collied on level in perfect weather below 1000'. We got lazy, we both made assumptions about what the other was going to do. We had been on the same level every jump that day, and it nearly got us. We SHOULD have had a plan.

If there is enough intrest I'll post the whole story, but for now Im done.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[skinnyshrek 0]

Everyone can debate about different landing patters for swoopers high/low wing loading. What is wrong with say lets just set up and and land.
It really is easy. The different types of wing loading is not killing people. I shoot video, i fly a loading of about 1.9-2. When videoing the big ways, you don't think i sink quicker than some of the other jumpers on the load. I love to swoop, come in fast. There is a time and place for it. You will always see me flying in a straight in approach when other canopies are around. How many fatalities have been involved lately with jumpers coming in straight. Flying their canopies in a normal way?
What is killing everyone is swooping in traffic. You can debate all you want about 90-180 and 270's The fact is. There is no safe hook turn in traffic. If you have a canopy you can't land without swooping then either upsize or do a canopy course.
As for Rw/freefly. I don't understand the long spot theory. I shoot tandem videos. always the last one out. Is it a problem because people with smaller canopies who do freeflying can't get their final swoop in. I am confused on this one.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[billvon 2,435]

I'm confused about your post.

>How many of you have been on a two or three way freefly dive when a
>large RW formation was on an Otter and you ended up with a long spot?

Many small RW groups are the problem, not the larger formations. When we do 16-ways out of an Otter, the last few people in the plane are guaranteed a good spot. When we have 3 4-ways and a few 2-ways - then the spot gets long. Solution would be to take it around.

>Shouldnt EVERY SINGLE JUMPER, be aware of how many others on that
>dive had larger or lower wingloadings than themselves so you can plan for
>when in the vertical separation you should be?

?? How would this be possible? I'm doing pretty well if I can remember a six point 8-way; do you really expect a jumper to remember the loadings of 22 other people on a load, and be able to identify those loadings as related to canopy color and opening altitude? We need a simpler system than that!

>We ALL have to pay attention to those we are sharing the sky with,
>we HAVE to have a PLAN.

I agree! We need a simple plan that's easily implemented and followed.

>Why is it so hard to take 30 seconds to discuss who has what WL,
>where they like to deplooy, and what type of landing they are
>anticipating on performing. Thirty seconds people, talk to each other.

Because it would take far more than 30 seconds to identify what sort of landings each of 23 people want to do, what their loadings are and how high they will pull - and it would take skydivers with much better memories than they have now.

>As far as performance landings in bigway dives, I believe its up to
>everyone on the dive to determine what is safely possible and what is
>not.

I agree here. And what is safely possible is a standard pattern. What's not safely possible is "land however you like." That has been proven to kill people. Even when people think the area is wide open and there is almost no other traffic there, jumpers doing 270's and 360's have injured and killed other jumpers with some regularity (unfortunately.)

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Because it would take far more than 30 seconds to identify what sort of landings each of 23 people want to do, what their loadings are and how high they will pull - and it would take skydivers with much better memories than they have now.

It seems that not only HP canopies and higher WL , but also big turbine jumpships are part of the problem.

[billvon 2,435]

>It seems that not only HP canopies and higher WL , but also big turbine
>jumpships are part of the problem.

Yep, especially at DZ's that have multiple aircraft.

[yardhippie 0]

I understand your confusion on my post, I was trying to make two points instead of one, and managed to ramble on without completing my thought.
I'll try to make sense of it.

I was thinking of the "segregation" of HP pilots vs. "typical" pilots. That segregation would only further divide our sport. We all have to work together to decide on what is going to work. No one dicipline has all the answers. Sorry, I ramble sometimes. And for the record, I agree, take it around, which, I was on one of the otters that had fun jumpers on it for one attempt of those big ways, we got a second pass.

I agree there is no way possible you can remember every single canopy, every singe wing loading, but is a series of 3-4, yes/no, questions too tough? For example.
Who here has a WL under 1.4? Raise of hands.
1.4 - 1.8?
1.8 and above?
That shouldn't even take 30 seconds and at a minimum give everone and idea of whats on that load. Im not claiming it would fix anything, but just that little tidbit should help everyone know that they would have x number of jumpers loaded above 1.8 falling out of the sky past those who are loaded lighter.

I spose I should have been a bit more detailed, but I didnt want to write a book here. In response knowing about each others landings. This, IMHO, comes back to the plan, having a HP area, having a straight in area, having flight patterns prescribed for those areas, etc. So, if those things have been put in place knowing a rough number of who going to be performing a HP landing should let you know what amount of traffic you'll be encountering in each pattern.

I belive that, even with our current group's memories , if a DZ has a prescribed traffic managment pattern, LZs, in addition to the do's /donts we have in place now. We can virtually eliminate the chances of this happening again.

Truthfully, big ways scare the living shit out of me. Thats why I dont do em. I dont like being in traffic with 40 others wondering where Im going to end up with all this traffic around me.

We say things like: you must do a straight in approach for big ways, well then you must define what that approach is going to look like, b/c some pilots might make a long sweeping 90 onto final to gain some speed. then you have to define how many is a "big" way. This definitions, if you posted a poll, will vary wildly. Then to say that you can perform a HP landing, but what if I went way the hell over there. For instance the far end of either landing area at Dublin. No one landed there unless the spot was bad, yet there were trucks to pick up those that did land there. Even the folks landing straight in were cramming into the two pieces of real estate right there by the taxiway next to the wind sock. Granted none of them caused this incident, but its still not the safest thing to do.

I know there was twice I aborted HP landings last weekend b/c I deemed it unsafe. I just wish we all did that.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[skinnyshrek 0]

Don't take this the wrong way hippie. Why does wing loading have anything to do with the skydive or landing? Why do you need to seperate based on wing loadings? Wing loading is not killing the jumpers, its the hook turning in traffic that is. I have been in the air with 80 canopies. At no point was a wing loading factor discussed. Everyone came in, by the book in traffic. Some in tight areas too. All kinds of wingloading on this jump. At no point did i see anyone do anything more than a 90 if that.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[billvon 2,435]

>Who here has a WL under 1.4? Raise of hands.
>1.4 - 1.8?
>1.8 and above?
>That shouldn't even take 30 seconds.

Fair enough.

Now let's say you do that, and you find out that 7 people are loaded under 1.4, 7 are loaded 1.4 to 1.8, and 7 are loaded 1.8 or above. How does that help you?

Let's say you open and see someone on your level. He has a black canopy with a green center cell. How does knowing the average wing loading on the load help you determine how to fit into the pattern?

On jumps where I know most of the people (say during a training weekend) I will set up to land with Adi and Dave because I know they will be two of the first down, and we separate ourselves so that the faster/heavier canopies land first (often by spiraling down or hanging on fronts.) This usually works pretty well. It's not perfect (they may be using their second rig which has different canopies in it) but it seems to work well enough.

On jumps where I _don't_ know everyone I go by canopy size. If there's a very small canopy in front of me I'll let it land first. If there's a larger canopy going slowly, I'll often pass it and land before them, so that I'm down and out of the way for the traffic behind _them._ I can tell what's going on mainly by how big their canopy looks and how fast they are going.

>If a DZ has a prescribed traffic managment pattern, LZs, in addition to
>the do's /donts we have in place now. We can virtually eliminate the
>chances of this happening again.

I agree there. A standardized pattern (and ability/willingness to fly it) is key.

>Truthfully, big ways scare the living shit out of me. Thats why I dont
>do em. I dont like being in traffic with 40 others wondering where Im
>going to end up with all this traffic around me.

Funny, because I feel the opposite. The scariest loads for me are the boogie loads with 40+ people in the air, all from different groups, landing wherever they want. The safest loads are the organized bigways where you know exactly what pattern everyone is going to fly and where everyone is going to go. I've landed with 400 other canopies with less drama than we see every weekend at Perris when two otter loads are trying to land. Again, the key is a standardized pattern and competent pilots.

>I know there was twice I aborted HP landings last weekend b/c I deemed it unsafe.

Personally I never do more than a 90 degree front riser hook when I am landing with other traffic, because in my opinion that's the most aggressive maneuver that still fits in a standard 90-90 pattern. Often I'll use nothing more than double fronts when I'm set up in such a way that I have to come straight in.

[yardhippie 0]

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Don't take this the wrong way hippie. Why does wing loading have anything to do with the skydive or landing? Why do you need to seperate based on wing loadings? Wing loading is not killing the jumpers, its the hook turning in traffic that is. I have been in the air with 80 canopies. At no point was a wing loading factor discussed. Everyone came in, by the book in traffic. Some in tight areas too. All kinds of wingloading on this jump. At no point did i see anyone do anything more than a 90 if that.

Im not, just a different way of looking at things.

Take the autobahn in Germany for example. No speed limits in portions of that road, yet there are very strict rules for travelling on it. No passiing on the right, car in front has the right of way, etc, but out of respect for other drivers the slower cars move out of the way. So we have both HP and slow car working together.

When I apply that idea to canopy piloting, our wingloading affects our speed. If we develop a plan, lets do it right. Faster more nimble canopies can easily negotiate traffic, enter the pattern earlier, and land earlier. Mind you in this discussion, im not talking about the HP landings. the relieves the amount of traffic in the air, freeing up the space and time for other pilots. that in and of itself should make for a safer landing pattern.

Now if we consider pilots who want to make HP landings, first and formost HP pilots must give right of way to lower canopies. No discussion. Second, they must respect everyone else as they move into the pattern and begin their set up. IF, after all that let them play.

I know at our DZ that I and other pilots have worked out some resemlance to a landing order. You and I both know that there is no way in hell I could hold in brakes and remain in the pattern behind Brie for example. So we have a plan, she'll hold in brakes and let me on by. Others and I have similar plans, but like Bill said, this type of plan is not possible when you are making 10 jumps a day and on a plane with 22 others.

IMHO, wingloading is a factor to consider in the overall discussion of how to prevent this tragedy from happening again. As is flight patters, designated LZs, awareness, and environment.
maybe that makes more sense.

In the incident that sparked all this, that turn had no business there IMO. If you want to disucss more personal stuff I'll be glad to chat with ya via PM.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[diablopilot 2]

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Skydive dallas allows only 180's and below in their main landing area.

Not like I know much about swooping, but...
If you do a 180 landing, then you would be flying exactly against the pattern (you are with the wind in your back where the others are in final direction into the wind) before starting your turn, won't you?

Isn't that more dangerous than a 270?

edit for clarity

Yes, yes, and YES!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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>Shouldnt EVERY SINGLE JUMPER, be aware of how many others on that
>dive had larger or lower wingloadings than themselves so you can plan for
>when in the vertical separation you should be?

?? How would this be possible? I'm doing pretty well if I can remember a six point 8-way; do you really expect a jumper to remember the loadings of 22 other people on a load, and be able to identify those loadings as related to canopy color and opening altitude? We need a simpler system than that!

It is quite reasonable to remeber who is on your load and what you can expect in the way of canopy trafic at MOST DZ's. Boogies and busy DZ's with multiple A/C and lots of visiting jumpers are the exception, but most of the time I know who's on the load and what I can expect.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[yardhippie 0]

When you asked how does know WL help you, I think you answered your own question.

You evaluate the other canopies in the air and determine where in the pattern you should be. Have that little bit of info could help you to know about how many smaller or larger canopies to be looking for right? That bit of info coupled with your evaluation of size, etc of other pilots helps to fit you into what you think is your best position. Then you would have to determin if a HP can be performed in the designated place by your position in the pattern.

When you jump with the same people you do the same things that I do as I discussed in my response to Skinnys questions.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[crutch 0]

huge difference here between the autobahn and this discussion, where the speed is unlimited, there are no turns in the road, they are pretty straight shots. second, rear view mirrors play a huge part, when you see the lights flashing, you move to the right.

couple of things here to dwell on. one, if the landing areas are any where near each other, say a hundred yards, there are days when the patterns are going to cross (depending on the winds), especially the swoopers coming down very quickly from upwards of 1000' when they are entering their turns. second, the whole problem with swoopers is tunnel vision. think about it, you need to focus on entry and exit points, a get a little adrenlian shot from doing it (that is why we do it) then you start pulling some g's as you are doing the turns. all of these things cause a loss of peripheral vision.

if you want to do hp landings with more than a 90 degree turn into your landing, then jump by yourself, pretty simple. think about that also, you will be the only one in the air so you have the attention of the spectators to yourself, that is why we swoop right? if you want to do rw/freefly jumps with other people, no more than 90 degree turns in the landing pattern. that is what is going to happen here. on top of that, pattern education is going to be high priority for ALL canopy piiots.

blue skies,

art

[skinnyshrek 0]

Some good points. I believe the only way to HELP avoid similar situations is what Art is enforcing. If you want to do HP landings, do a solo or another landing area. When under canopy people should be evaluating every other canopy. Constantly keeping your head on a swivel.
Like i said. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WING LOADING YOU HAVE!

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[davadikian 0]

Lee
People aren't going to get it unless there forced to "get it". I mean for christs sake after the events of the last couple of months and the countless near misses people are still debating this???? WTF???

My wife described these events to her father who has never jumped and he could identify the problem. "270+ turns in traffic" aka "people who don't know when NOT to swoop" call it what you want!

Yet we still debate...

Art for what its worth I think your doing the right thing.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Take the autobahn in Germany for example. No speed limits in portions of that road, yet there are very strict rules for travelling on it. No passiing on the right, car in front has the right of way, etc, but out of respect for other drivers the slower cars move out of the way. So we have both HP and slow car working together.

I thought that actual practice is the guy flying along sits on his horn and flashers and the slow guy damn well better move over. If not, sometimes some very bad accidents happen. Which seems very much the same as the topic at hand. (save having the rear view mirror and segments lanes of traffic)