New Rigger Equipment

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

For example, clamps.

They are not allowed to be used on certain canopies or it voids the TSO.

We do not teach their use as such and some of these guys that use them take longer to learn packing without them than say someone that never used them.

This come from someone that also is a FAA DPRE examiner and trained people from all of the world for many years.

MEL

And on the other hand there manufactures that specify the use of clamps. When there is a conflict between what the canopy manufacture says and what the container/harness manufacture says you are to follow the container/harness manufactures instructions. See attachments.

Sparky

Sparky,
First, the AC that you quoted is no longer active.

Second, ACs are not regulatory.

Third, the manufacturer's instruction quote "recommended" tools, not "required" tools and as you well know is a major difference in regulatory language.

Forth, the canopy manufacturer's are pretty vivid in their instructions on not to use clamps.
See below From Fight Concepts Reserve manual:


7
INSPECTION INSTRUCTIONS
NOTE: THE INSPECTION OF A FLIGHT CONCEPTS
INTERNATIONAL, INC. RESERVE CANOPY PRIOR TO
BEING ASSEMBLED INTO A PARACHUTE
HARNESS/CONTAINER SYSTEM, OR DURING THE
REPACK CYCLE CAN ONLY BE DONE BY THE
MANUFACTURER OR AN FAA CERTIFIED SENIOR OR
MASTER PARACHUTE RIGGER. ADDITIONALLY, TO
INSURE THE CORRECTNESS OF THE INSPECTION
PROCEDURE, THESE INSPECTION INSTRUCTIONS MUST
BE FOLLOWED EXACTLY.
DO NOT USE ANY TYPE OF CLAMPS TO TEST, PACK OR
MAINTAIN THIS PARACHUTE SYSTEM. PLACING CLAMPS
ON PARACHUTES IS DETRIMENTAL TO THE PARACHUTE
FABRIC. THE ACCEPTABLE PRACTICE FOR TESTING
FABRIC IS THE THUMB TEST. THIS TEST CAN ALSO BE
ACCOMPLISHED BY GRASPING THE FABRIC IN EACH
HAND AND SNAPPING OR POPPING THE FABRIC
VIGOROUSLY.

http://flightconceptsint.com/forms/reserve2006.pdf


Also the part about voiding the TSO is written into their ACO manual and can be confirmed by calling Flight Concepts.

Lastly, it is just a trend to use clamps and absolutely not necessary to use use them to achieve a good pack job.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Quote:
Flight Concepts (Was Glide Path previously) is just one manufacturer that forbids the use of clamps on their products.

I am aware of this. But since you use the wording "just one" I am wondering if there are others that you know of?

FFE is another one and I THINK Precision was on that platform also.

Quote

I've never seen anyone hang a canopy for inspection without using clamps, is this allowed?

Absolutely a great question!
I think if you only use clamps with soft rubber jaws and clamp the tail seam only; you should have no issues with FCI's policy.

Actually, that is the way I do all canopies in my loft.

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[RiggerLee 61]

I'll take the opposite side of the argument.

It is true that Red is anti clamp. So be it. It's his product. But that is far from a universal feeling. I should point out the difference between doing pull test with clamps which is some what damaging to fabric, and is still advocated by some manufacturers, and the relatively benign uses of good rubber tipped clamps in the packing process. I like my clamps. It's like having an extra hand. Can I pack with out them, yes. Is it as easy, no. I suppose if I finally figure out how to grow an extra arm, maybe two, I'll give up clamps for good. Maybe not even then. I like to get up and take a piss some times. But until then I think I'll continue to take advantage of what is essentially an extra hand, at least when it's permitted.

And you should see the mondo supper large clamps on steroids that I use with the 1200 sq ft canopies. They're like the standard orange clamps but twice as large.

TOOLS. Tool use separates us from the animals. I feel abandoning that concept is tantamount to a betrayal of all that we have achieved in the last one million years.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[leon.hill 1]

masterrigger1

Quote

For example, clamps.

They are not allowed to be used on certain canopies or it voids the TSO.

We do not teach their use as such and some of these guys that use them take longer to learn packing without them than say someone that never used them.

This come from someone that also is a FAA DPRE examiner and trained people from all of the world for many years.

MEL

And on the other hand there manufactures that specify the use of clamps. When there is a conflict between what the canopy manufacture says and what the container/harness manufacture says you are to follow the container/harness manufactures instructions. See attachments.

Sparky

Sparky,
First, the AC that you quoted is no longer active.

Second, ACs are not regulatory.

Third, the manufacturer's instruction quote "recommended" tools, not "required" tools and as you well know is a major difference in regulatory language.

Forth, the canopy manufacturer's are pretty vivid in their instructions on not to use clamps.
See below From Fight Concepts Reserve manual:


7
INSPECTION INSTRUCTIONS
NOTE: THE INSPECTION OF A FLIGHT CONCEPTS
INTERNATIONAL, INC. RESERVE CANOPY PRIOR TO
BEING ASSEMBLED INTO A PARACHUTE
HARNESS/CONTAINER SYSTEM, OR DURING THE
REPACK CYCLE CAN ONLY BE DONE BY THE
MANUFACTURER OR AN FAA CERTIFIED SENIOR OR
MASTER PARACHUTE RIGGER. ADDITIONALLY, TO
INSURE THE CORRECTNESS OF THE INSPECTION
PROCEDURE, THESE INSPECTION INSTRUCTIONS MUST
BE FOLLOWED EXACTLY.
DO NOT USE ANY TYPE OF CLAMPS TO TEST, PACK OR
MAINTAIN THIS PARACHUTE SYSTEM. PLACING CLAMPS
ON PARACHUTES IS DETRIMENTAL TO THE PARACHUTE
FABRIC. THE ACCEPTABLE PRACTICE FOR TESTING
FABRIC IS THE THUMB TEST. THIS TEST CAN ALSO BE
ACCOMPLISHED BY GRASPING THE FABRIC IN EACH
HAND AND SNAPPING OR POPPING THE FABRIC
VIGOROUSLY.

http://flightconceptsint.com/forms/reserve2006.pdf


Also the part about voiding the TSO is written into their ACO manual and can be confirmed by calling Flight Concepts.

Lastly, it is just a trend to use clamps and absolutely not necessary to use use them to achieve a good pack job.

BS,
MEL

This is the response I was looking for.

I don't need someone to tell me "if you use clamps, it voids the TSO." I want to see where it tells me this. I work for the military as a rigger and everything I do because I work for the military has to be on point. When I have to research something to answer a question, sometimes they don't want to just hear it out of my mouth, they want a tangible instruction or AC to back up my answer.

There is a plethora of knowledge on this forum that I use regularly and when I don't understand something I ask. Thanks to everyone on this thread, the OP may or may not be getting his rigger certificate, I would just like him to be well informed of all the facts. Not just "hip pocket" trained.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

It is true that Red is anti clamp. So be it. It's his product. But that is far from a universal feeling.

It just depends!

If you ask the people that use them, they probably are in the same boat you are.

On the other hand if you ask people that do not use them, which is probably the majority of riggers BTW; you would get the opposite answer.

Quote

I should point out the difference between doing pull test with clamps which is some what damaging to fabric, and is still advocated by some manufacturers, and the relatively benign uses of good rubber tipped clamps in the packing process.

Yes the pull test is recommended (not required) by at least one manufacturer.
That said, there have been at least two incidents where a reserve canopy has failed in the area of a pull test.

I, as a ASME Level III NDE (Non Destructive Examination/Testing) person, with 34 years in this field, highly disproves of any such test.

The reason is that it is considered a destructive test by it's own design, not a non-destructive test as it is improperly called by these same manufacturers.

Also, if the clamps cause damage during packing, the use of them would not be relatively benign.
If you look at the clamps usually illustrated in the manufacturer's instructions, they are not soft rubber tipped.

Quote

I like my clamps. It's like having an extra hand. Can I pack with out them, yes. Is it as easy, no. I suppose if I finally figure out how to grow an extra arm, maybe two, I'll give up clamps for good. Maybe not even then.

That is just fine as long as you do not pack the canopies that do not allow clamps to be used.

To sum it up, it is all about technique.

BTW, some of the best pack jobs I have ever came across was from someone that only had two arms and did not use clamps.

Quote

TOOLS. Tool use separates us from the animals.

Negative.
That would be intellect and the ability of reasoning.



MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[gowlerk 1,915]

Quote

If you look at the clamps usually illustrated in the manufacturer's instructions, they are not soft rubber tipped.

Interesting, especially the comments on pull testing, which I have always thought to be too destructive to use without a clear reason to. However, if you are talking about the clamps pictured in the FAA manual and the RI packing manual the clamps used are clearly "Pony" brand soft rubber tipped 4" clamps. Originally intended for wood working without marking finely finished surfaces.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[piisfish 135]

If clamps were THAT destructive, wouldn't we see more catastrophic failures on BASE canopies ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi Mark,

Quote

The reason is that it is considered a destructive test by it's own design, not a non-destructive test as it is improperly called by these same manufacturers.

I could not agree more.

JerryBaumchen

[RiggerLee 61]

For the record I'm not a fan of the clamp test. I do my best to doge using it when ever possible preferring my calibrated thumb.

Where did this idea actually come from and how did they establish this standard, which I think is too harsh? I know it dates back to the acid mesh issue. I once heard that it was stolen verbatim from the balloon industry. But why would they think that it would be ok to apply that to a much lighter fabric? It's just a little before my time. Could somebody clarify the history particularly how the 40 lb standard was established?

I do try to avoid this test. I'm going to set my pride aside to ask this question I can't find mention of it in their manual. What is the deal with the new optimum fabric? Are they advocating testing it in the same way? And are there any differences in the standards? If they are advocating a 30 pull for the PD reserve are the testing the optimum to the same? I should do a better keeping up my knowledge.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi Lee,

Quote

Could somebody clarify the history particularly how the 40 lb standard was established?

I'll try. It was back in the acid mesh problem era. Nobody knew what the H*** was going on. Someone in PIA found the balloon guys had this test and they jumped onto it. It was something in a world of nothing.

I was the 2nd person in the US to get FAA Approval for an Alternate Means of Certification ( or whatever it was called ) to recertify SAC canopies and I just went with it.

I had two types of results on the SAC canopies; they failed at a very low ( 8-10 lbs of pull ) or they showed absolutely no damage to the fabric.

Hope that this helps,

JerryBaumchen