pchapman 261 #26 October 28, 2013 normiss How'd that work for Larry Elmore? Well, if you cut away low and don't pull the reserve (and don't accelerate to AAD firing speed until 1.5 seconds to impact)... it isn't much going to matter if it is a Racer like he had, or something else. But I only skimmed the dz.com thread to familiarize myself with the case. (Ref.:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4490907) If you want to talk about the benefits of optional equipment like RSL's or MARD's, fair enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #27 October 28, 2013 It still appears to be an AAD vs. extraction force issue. He made it to reserve line stretch. Me, I added 300 ft to my Cyrpess firing altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #28 October 28, 2013 TMPattersonJr*** Remember this jumper in Quebec, on his back, with the bridle and pilot chute fully extended, with no launch of the reserve. He had to grab the bridle with his hand and pull to get the reserve extraction. Check the video on You Tube. Yea, this guy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKVAtjfGjp0 Better analysis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYQ6iP8zlg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 1 #29 October 28, 2013 irishriggerit is a Javelin NJK, reserve is a optimum 143 [...].I believe sunpath recommend optimum126 as max. I'm no expert by any mean, I wouldn't even say that I am decent in knowledge, but shouldn't this be a problem? If the manufacturer recommends a certain maximum size, it means they did extraction tests and so on with a bigger one, and they failed. Why would I expect it to work in my case? That's exactly why they say PD Optimum 126 MAX. If you stuff a bigger reserve, it might or might not work, for sure it is less than ideal, right?I'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catyduck 0 #30 October 28, 2013 Di0 If the manufacturer recommends a certain maximum size, it means they did extraction tests and so on with a bigger one, and they failed. Does it? I thought it was, they have done tests for the recommended range. Outside of that, you are on your own. Due to number of variables, different types of same-size canopy, impossibility of testing all conditions, etc. Definitely curious now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #31 October 28, 2013 catyduck*** If the manufacturer recommends a certain maximum size, it means they did extraction tests and so on with a bigger one, and they failed. Does it? I thought it was, they have done tests for the recommended range. Outside of that, you are on your own. Due to number of variables, different types of same-size canopy, impossibility of testing all conditions, etc. Definitely curious now. IIRC...they TSO qualify it with what works best. One rig design, one canopy. I've never heard of a manufacturer 'testing' every possible configuration - even IN the 'recommended range'. THAT would be a logistical nightmare & up the cost considerably per rig. ~~not directed specifically at you catyduck - but it's great to see this kind of discussion going on, and that it raises curiosity & possible concern. Too often it seems, many are trusting blindly when they really should be more aware. Certainly rigs are more stylish and fit better than ever before...but, that's not their primary function. Remember - the LAST thing you need at 2000'...is PRETTY gear! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #32 October 28, 2013 normissIt still appears to be an AAD vs. extraction force issue. He made it to reserve line stretch. Larry? Isn't he the guy who was witnessed cutting away extremely low? I'm sorry normiss, but do you know of a gear manufacturer that gets their reserve out no matter how low you cutaway? I know I'm new, but I don't know of any. This is a really poor argument to use, and doesn't appear to have anything at all to do with reserve extraction force. Do you know of any cases of a Racer with an AAD firing at optimum altitude and the reserve not opening? If so, please present those. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #33 October 28, 2013 normissLarry had the same belief and it failed him. Don't put all your eggs in one manufacturer's basket. Or container for that matter. What does this even mean? We ALL put "all of our eggs into one manufacturer's basket". Do you know of any "combo rigs" that have systems designed by multiple container manufacturers? We ALL wear ONE manufacturer's rig when we go up there. We choose ONE container and then do the best we can with it. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #34 October 28, 2013 Racers and reflexes and teardrops are a little odd because, assuming it cuts cleanly and there are no hang ups of the loops in the cutter, they are the only rigs on the market that actually function properly, read that "as designed", when activated by a loop cutting aad like a cypress or vigil. In fact they might even function better then normal. I'll explane. There's a story about a racer. Duran a number of years back had a couple of racers. Short story was that on a bad repack the rigger seems to have gotten some fabris caught in the top loop. In all fairness this really shouldn't happen if you're competent but the possibility has always been out there. As I recall they were recommending in England for a while that you close the rig, pop it, and hand sew the loop togather so that it's not a big open loop that can catch things. In any case duran had to hand deploy his stuck pilot chute and wound up with a very short reserve ride. The interesting thing is that by cutting the loop you actually eliminate this danger. So Oddly enough it's the only rig in the world that actually opens better from an aad firing then a manual deployment. Admitedly this is an odd ball scenario but I've had it happen on a recovery system where I was trying to use a similar quick loop system so the shit does happen. Now contrast that with an external rip cord where the loop is actually trying to lock the container closed when cut by the aad. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pacific 0 #35 October 29, 2013 RMURRAY" so the question is should every rigger check this from now on?" agree on a test method and YES. Maybe you should make a poll and have experienced riggers vote. That is, if you believe this to be a valid test. If it fails, then what? Does a rigger refuse the pack job? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #36 October 29, 2013 It was reported that his AAD fired at it's correct altitude yet there was a delay in the reserve clearing. How is that not a fair comparison? I am not intentionally attacking any brand in particular, my intent is for us to all understand it's possible with many gear combinations. Nor was my intent to piss you off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catyduck 0 #37 October 29, 2013 airtwardoIIRC...they TSO qualify it with what works best. One rig design, one canopy. I've never heard of a manufacturer 'testing' every possible configuration - even IN the 'recommended range'. THAT would be a logistical nightmare & up the cost considerably per rig. Thanks, airtwardo. Yeah, I'm sure I didn't mean every possible combination ("now, let's dig up this canopy that ceased production in 1990, but hey, it's the right size..."). But I'm surprised they aren't required to test the extreme ends, the soft-soft and tight-tight fit with a representative canopy pair. My first reserve ride was a total mal on a friend's stuffed or overstuffed (pretty sure the latter) rig. Threads like this are scary. I have not seen this particular question discussed, so: Is there any danger in choosing a container size to allow a soft fit on your desired reserve size? (within manufacturer specs...but if they only have to test one size, how do you know which one...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #38 October 29, 2013 catyduckIs there any danger in choosing a container size to allow a soft fit on your desired reserve size? The pilot chute may not compress enough to launch well. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #39 October 29, 2013 Quote Remember - the LAST thing you need at 2000'...is PRETTY gear! Seems I heard that once before.... pretty sure you ripped that off one of those decrepit old washed up has been dz bums, and that old man is crazy as a loon.... few stitches loose on the old webbing, you know.... LOL LOve YA... J.S. you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #40 October 29, 2013 QuoteIt still appears to be an AAD vs. extraction force issue. He made it to reserve line stretch. I got no cat in this fight, but I just read the AAD report, he deployed @ 2900 and stopp @ 2001, then cutaway under 500ft and without a skyhook, the AAD fired and he went in with the reserve handle in the pocket. I fail to see the fault in the extraction, the bag was out and canopy was starting, when the deployment starts at 200 ft and at terminal, well um, gee kind of hard to over look the main failure on that accident. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4502306#4502306 There is a lesson in Larry's death, it's not a new one, we've all known about it for yrs, and train to avoid it, or we should be, yet time & time again we lose friends like Larry in the same way he was lost.... he won't be the last, I wish it was, but that facts are what they are. If we want to talk about extraction force issues, then lets talk about hand deploying a reserve like on that wings rig over the summer that is on video.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #41 October 29, 2013 normissIt was reported that his AAD fired at it's correct altitude yet there was a delay in the reserve clearing. How is that not a fair comparison? With Larry? You're completely incorrect, if the thread is at all accurate. I checked the thread this morning after you posted, and the report was that the cutaway was extremely low, and the AAD activated just above the ground. I assume you know that AADs have a RANGE of altitude they fire in, not just one altitude. It went through 700 feet at too low a speed to activate, then the cut happened, causing the speed to increase to activation speeds. There's no indication that his was a case of an AAD firing in the 700' range. This is what the witnesses reported. The AAD report eventually showed impact 1.5 seconds after the cut, which is WAY below 700'. Their exact determination, according to the thread and the report from Vigil that John Sherman posted, was about 220 feet for activation altitude. This is also what pchapman posted to you before I posted. The Racer reserve is not supposed to deploy in just 200 feet. So my argument is that the following 2 things are not the same: 1. My reserve only reached line stretch because my pilot chute does not produce enough drag force to pull my reserve out of the container as fast as it should, or at all. 2. My reserve only reached line stretch because I activated it so low that despite deploying as designed, there was not enough altitude remaining. I see your comments in Larry's thread, calling him a friend and writing that you're going to increase your AAD activation altitude, so I don't think you ever properly understood what apparently happened to him. Increasing your activation altitude will neither help you to avoid his fate, nor will it honour his memory. What will help you is what so many others here have taught me: 1. to stay altitude aware 2. to not invest your remaining time/altitude in a malfunctioning main 3. to set an audible alarm at your cutaway hard deck and to obey it (I have one at 2,000 feet and another at 1,000 feet meaning "last chance to survive, moron!") "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnSherman 1 #42 October 29, 2013 The Racer didn't fail Larry. Per the AAD data Larry had 1.5 seconds between cutaway and impact. Racers take 2 second. ALL rigs should be checked for extraction effort and if it requires more than 18 pounds don't certify it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #43 October 30, 2013 My apologies John, I clearly and foolishly remembered this one way off. I still say the extra 300 ft on AAD is worth it. Apologies to all for my horrendous memory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter.draper 0 #44 October 30, 2013 I found the video of the high extraction force ... it is here http://youtu.be/VpF-LtrMfYo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #45 October 30, 2013 irishriggerI have been reading and listning about aad fires and the reserve not inflating in time, then i came across this rig and it has really opened my eyes! the scale i have measures 35lbs and it was not enough to extract this freebag with the main inside and riser cover closed.i do not believe that this reserve would have inflated in time, had the person had to rely on his AAD to save him. I have advised the owner to get a smaller reserve, at the moment it is an Optimum 143. my question is should every rigger test a rig like this for every repack? I do not believe that every rigger checks this,so should it be made compulsary? I have a skyhook. I don't have to worry about this. EDIT: Nevermind. skyhook has nothing to do with the situation at hand. LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
irishrigger 31 #46 October 30, 2013 glad to see you corrected your statement, having a skyhook is irrelevant, the rig i posted pics of is also has a skyhook. The issue is when you have a total or an aad fire,with the main container and riser covers closed,then you could have a serious issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtbox 0 #47 October 30, 2013 not to sound like a douche but why was this combination ever packed? If the manufacturer says X is the max size reserve and then the rigger packs in an X+1 doesn't that make the rigger liable? Don't get me wrong, the responsibility ultimately lies with someone choosing to purchase/jump such a combination but at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffCa 0 #48 October 30, 2013 normiss My apologies John, I clearly and foolishly remembered this one way off. I still say the extra 300 ft on AAD is worth it. Apologies to all for my horrendous memory. I agree that an extra 300 feet is worth it. Some deployments might be delayed, but it also buys a little extra time to set up for a safe landing. I pull above 3,000 feet anyway, so a firing height of 1,000 feet should never result in a 2-out for me. The big-man apology is appreciated. Racer didn't deserve to get that pinned on them. "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter.draper 0 #49 October 30, 2013 dirtboxnot to sound like a douche but why was this combination ever packed? If the manufacturer says X is the max size reserve and then the rigger packs in an X+1 doesn't that make the rigger liable? Don't get me wrong, the responsibility ultimately lies with someone choosing to purchase/jump such a combination but at the same time... In the case of the rig in my video, it was assembled and packed by the manufacturer, I was doing the first inspection after purchase.... sometimes it's not just overstuffing the container, it's a design issue too. Riser covers holding the side flaps closed, stiffened flaps inhibiting the freebag, the main pressing onto the reserve through the bottom reserve wall all retard the reserve extraction incrementally..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #50 October 30, 2013 Your reasoning is exactly why I think that. Again, sorry for being a hammerhead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
