Hangliding safer than skydiving? Huh? What?!

[christoofar 0]

Okay... I'm venting.

Why do whuffos think that hangliding is somehow safer than skydiving? I'm only asking this here because I've heard this crap for the third time this week.

Hangliding involves:
o) No reserve wing. You're stuck if the canvas for your wing tears.
o) Tough takeoffs and landings on steep terrain. Anyone successfully hanglide on a flat plain with a nice little runway?
o) Lot o' accidents. They aren't an eventuality like in skydiving, they are a certainty.
o) Lots of experience. I don't know anyone who hanglides that doesn't already have lots of hours in a glider. What makes these whuffos think they are going to know how to spot thermals and rise on them?

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

) No reserve wing. You're stuck if the canvas for your wing tears

They have reserve canopies in many of the newer rigs. Kinda cool actually.

Just like anything that involves flight, there is risk, the whuffo thoughts are probably due to the stigma of actually leaving the plane instead of "taking off" with something.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[nigel99 144]

A few years back some guys from our club tried hang-gliding, all broke bones within the first few attempts.(I seem to remember the collar bone was the favourite)

I doubt its typical but it sure gave hang-gliding a bad name at our DZ

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[jfields 0]

Quote

spot thermals and rise on them

That is a slower way to altitude than a Cessna.

[skreamer 1]

How can you compare the two? You can't equate one skydive to one hang-gliding flight, because from takeoff to landing under canopy can take as little as 30 min for one skydive (jumping from a turbine). On the other hand one hang-gliding flight can probably last much longer. Maybe hang-gliding is safer, but I don't know because I don't understand on what basis you can compare the two.

However I do know that take-offs in relatively small planes can be dangerous and I choose to take-off in a heavily loaded small plane very often. Most skydivers probably worry about bouncing or hooking it in, personally I am most worried about an accident on take-off (heavily loaded plane probably with lots of fuel in the tanks). You are trusting your life to the people who built the plane, the people who service the plane and the man/men flying the plane, you don't have any control over the situation.

Will

[Deuce 1]

They have reserve canopies in many of the newer rigs. Kinda cool actually.

AggieDave you just like those ballistic parachutes cause they get launched with an explosive charge!

EJECTEJECTEJECT! BAMM!

People think hangliders are safer cause they can see the contraption before they get in it. Our contraption(s) are all folded up and hidden away and require an act of faith. You gotta jump out of the plane without seeing the parachute.

People think that the hang glider is intact now, so it will remain intact in flight. Not me. Maybe a paraglider, but there's no aluminum sparred hanglider in this boy's future.

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Quote

People think hangliders are safer cause they can see the contraption before they get in it. Our contraption(s) are all folded up and hidden away and require an act of faith. You gotta jump out of the plane without seeing the parachute.

Good point, Deuce. I packed my first rig last weekend, and then deployed it on the ground. Knowing how the canopy actually deploys makes it all less mysterious to me, and therefore reduces the anxiety a bit.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

AggieDave you just like those ballistic parachutes cause they get launched with an explosive charge!

Actually, yes, you are correct with that statement.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[pop 0]

this is funny you brought this up. i had a converstaion just lioke this with a whuffo at my gym yesterday. we were talkoing about those gocart looking like things that take off and have a canopy over them. and the whuffo was saying that he could handle doing that because it didnt require jumping out of something.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[skydiverek 55]

Quote

How can you compare the two? You can't equate one skydive to one hang-gliding flight, because from takeoff to landing under canopy can take as little as 30 min for one skydive (jumping from a turbine). On the other hand one hang-gliding flight can probably last much longer.

Duration of sport activity (hand-glide flight OR ride in the airplane and skydive) does not matter. What matters is that you (as one person) commit the same amount of time to each sport. Lets say, you do these two sports on weekends only. Each weekend you commit whole Saturday to hand-gliding and whole Sunday to skydiving. Number of flights/skydives does not matter. What matters is that you are EQUALLY involved in both sports. Now you can compare risks (and predict if you are more likely to die on Saturday or Sunday).

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I think I'm at greater risk driving to the drop zone than I am while skydiving (not that I know I'm at risk whenever I step on an airplane, let alone jump out of one).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[scottbre 0]

Quote

I think I'm at greater risk driving to the drop zone than I am while skydiving

Think what you want. Doesn't make it true.

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[VivaHeadDown 0]

A small misconception...paragliding is safer than hanggliding because you are familiar with a parachute. Truth, paragliders are very different from your canopy, with a much higher aspect ratio. That means that collapses of all types are a part of every flight.
As for your guys who went and broke their necks trying to hangglide, I'd bet there was no formal training.
They've got the same scam skydiving has. USPA=USHGA, average of $1200 to train in each, rating systems with licenses, gift shops with T-Shirts. Check it out, it's no different really, and the more you know the better time you have. Anybody can fall from an airplane, but it takes skill to maintain altitude with an unpowered wing.
Skydiving is still my number 1 favorite, but sometimes the bank account is dry and I still need to fly, so there you have it.

Don't Confuse Me With My Own Words

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I still think that driving my car everyday is one of the riskiest things I do.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[skreamer 1]

Quote

What matters is that you are EQUALLY involved in both sports. Now you can compare risks (and predict if you are more likely to die on Saturday or Sunday).

Exactly how do you plan on quantifying 'Equally involved'??? How long do you hang-glide for on a Saturday? What sort of skydiving are you into and how many jumps would you make on an average Sunday? How small is your canopy and how well do you fly it? How well maintained is your jump plane and how good is the pilot flying it?

Sorry man, there are just too many variables and I don't think there is any way to easily draw a basis for comparison. And I definitely don't believe that being 'equally involved' in both sports will provide this (especially seeing as I won't be taking up hang-gliding anytime soon). People will come to whatever conclusions make them feel better about the particular sport they have chosen, whether that is skydiving, extreme bowling, whatever...

Will

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Quote

I still think that driving my car everyday is one of the riskiest things I do.

Well slow down, then, Steve!! And use your turn signal!!

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Quote

Sorry man, there are just too many variables and I don't think there is any way to easily draw a basis for comparison.

Well, it could be done if you took a per capita index of deaths per year between the sports, injuries per year between the sports, and perhaps broke down the data very loosely for novice, intermediate, and expert participants in each. Perhaps you could do a comparison between the different license ratings for each. I agree that there are a lot of variables, but statistics can be constructed.
Do we right now have solid data for the number of deaths and injuries in either sport? Probably not, but a determined statistician could probably research this.
As to how to break down the experience levels, I am completely ignorant about hang gliding, and am still a student in skydiving, so even if I am unqualified to determine these, there are doubtless people who are.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[christoofar 0]

For a comparison to other sports, check the table printed on page 13 of the April 1990 issue of Parachutist. Here is a comparison of the risks of participating in various activities. It was put together by the U.S. Hang Gliding Association using data collected from various air sports organizations and melding it with data from the National Safety Council and other sources.

Activity Participants Fatalities Rate per 100,000
per year participants
All accidents 230,000,000 96,000 42
Traffic Fatalities 162,850,000 46,000 28
Power Boat Racing 7,000 5 71
SCUBA 300,000 140 47
Mountaineering 60,000 30 50
Boxing 6,000 3 50

AIR VEHICLES:
Air Shows 1,000 5 500
Homebuilt 8,000 25 312
General Aviation 550,000 800 145
Sailplane 20,000 9 45
Balloon 4,500 3 67
Hang Gliding 25,000 10 40
SKYDIVING 110,000 28 25


---

Now, this is old data... but 25 deaths per 100G is much nicer to digest than 40/100,000.

-C

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Chris,
Is this the chart printed in that issue of Parachutist? Not yet a USPA member, so I don't have a subscription to recent ones, let alone older ones. By the way, what are the other figures here? The 110,000 and the 28 under skydiving, for example.

Quote

SKYDIVING 110,000 28 25

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[billvon 2,400]

>Why do whuffos think that hangliding is somehow safer than skydiving?

Not sure of the stats, but I think they're on the same order of risk.

>o) No reserve wing. You're stuck if the canvas for your wing tears.

Most hang gliders have reserves, and they do not use "canvas" in their wings any more than we use silk.

>o) Tough takeoffs and landings on steep terrain.

Generally at a much lower speed than our landings. Most popular sites have very smooth, open launch points and flat landing areas. If anything it is a lack of skill on a skydiver's part that he cannot land on a slope.

>o) Lot o' accidents. They aren't an eventuality like in skydiving, they are a certainty.

Those words mean the same thing; in both cases, accidents are going to happen eventually in both sports.

>o) Lots of experience. I don't know anyone who hanglides that doesn't already have lots of hours in a glider.
>What makes these whuffos think they are going to know how to spot thermals and rise on them?

They don't, any more than a new jumper knows without a shadow of a doubt that he can safely land an unstable ram-air canopy on his first (or third) try with no direct assistance.

All these reasons that hanggliding is more risky sound like the same thing that whuffos say about us:

"Of course hanggliding is safer! You assemble a hang glider _before_ you take off, and parachutes malfunction all the time."

"Some skydivers don't use reserves when they jump off bridges."

"Those round parachutes are hard to steer so you land in trees a lot, especially if the pilot makes a mistake."

"Even those ram-air parachutes have no stability! They can collapse in turbulence."

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Okay... I'm venting.

Why do whuffos think that hangliding is somehow safer than skydiving? I'm only asking this here because I've heard this crap for the third time this week.

Hangliding involves:
o) No reserve wing. You're stuck if the canvas for your wing tears.
o) Tough takeoffs and landings on steep terrain. Anyone successfully hanglide on a flat plain with a nice little runway?
o) Lot o' accidents. They aren't an eventuality like in skydiving, they are a certainty.
o) Lots of experience. I don't know anyone who hanglides that doesn't already have lots of hours in a glider. What makes these whuffos think they are going to know how to spot thermals and rise on them?

1> Modern hangglider harnesses contain a reserve parachute in case your wing fails.
2> You don't need steep terrain to hangglide. Florida has some premier hanggliding schools. There are 2 really great ones up in Orlando. Aerotowing is becoming more and more popular and is quite safe.
3> You don't need experience to hang glide. Tandem hang gliding is common today and has quickly become the primary teaching method for hang gliding. Good schools will see a student do 10-20 tandem flights before letting them go solo.

When hang gliding started in the 70's it averaged 30 deaths a year. The last couple years that average has gone down to 3 deaths a year.

As for accidents not being an "eventuality" in skydiving, it seems like a lot of the regulars I meet have had a broken bone or two.

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Now, this is old data... but 25 deaths per 100G is much nicer to digest than 40/100,000.

See http://www.ushga.org/media/USHGAComment.pdf page 11 for more recent stats on hang gliding fatalities.