jfields 0 #76 September 11, 2002 QuoteWell, you could just do a stint in purgatory. I do. It is called a "job". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #77 September 11, 2002 Disorganized "faith" will do the trick too. -------------- It is only with the introduction of the orgainized, though, that the "disorganized", as you call it, is an issue. If everyone can live and let live, no problem. That is not possible, though, when you have religions who preach that they know the one and only true secret to whatever is out there and everyone else is wrong. If religion had not been introduced, there would be no Athiests either, only Agnostics. I wonder, then, if they would kill eachother for their beliefs when nobody knew what they believed. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #78 September 11, 2002 QuoteI do. It is called a "job". In my case, that would be hell! _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #79 September 11, 2002 QuoteTo me, all religions are kind of the same when you boil the fluff out of them. It is all summed up with two words: "Be Good". Actually, in true christianity, it is not about doing good or burning in hell, because anything less than perfection leads you to hell and no one can possibly be perfect. This is why Jesus is so important to the faith b/c since he paid the 'price' for sins by willingly dying for them, he alone can justify someone. So it is about faith in Jesus and what he did on the cross, not about doing good although that is something a christian should do. This is one of the main things that make christianity so radically different from the other religions of the world. Outward expressions of good are worthless unless the inward character and heart of a person is rightly aligned. Examples from the text: "We are all infected and impure with sin. When we proudly display our righteous deeds, we find they are but filthy rags... " Isa 64:6 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Ro 3:23 Finally: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;" Eph 2:8 Notice that the salvation comes through faith and is a gift. Hence you can't earn it by merely doing good. This is confirmed in many parts of the text. Doing good is a byproduct of your life of faith and a sign that you are a christian. In short, there is a difference that is very significant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hohonukai 0 #80 September 11, 2002 QuoteWho here does some form of praying regularly and what type of prayer do you say? Do you only pray when you want something? Do you pray when you see someone else is in need? Do you do it as a daily or weekly practice? Yes, I do pray, and the answer is no:yes:yes to the rest of the questions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #81 September 11, 2002 QuoteWell, you could just do a stint in purgatory. ------------------------------------------------------------ I do. It is called a "job". Tee hee ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #82 September 11, 2002 I would have to agree with breaking it down to "being good". It is not the acceptance of Christ alone that is going to save someone. If that were true, then one would not have to continue repenting for their sins after the initial acceptance. Christianity is not a "get out of jail free" card. If you screw up, you can be forgiven, but you can't go out and kill people thinking, "oh, I'll just repent and it'll all be ok". Further, if you accept Christ soley for the purpose of gaining entrance into heaven, it turns the acceptance itsself into a self serving purpose, which is sinful in nature. So, now one has to as forgiveness for accepting Christ, and unless he or she is now doing that because they really want to be good, then he or she needs to ask forgiveness for that, because that is sinful too. As long as salvation is the goal, it will always be contradictory and sinful in nature, and since the acceptance of Christ is centered around salvation, I would venture to say that it IS NOT all about the acceptance of Christ. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygirlpc 0 #83 September 11, 2002 Yes, I pray, very regularly! What kind of prayer? For me it is about a relationship with God. So when I pray I just talk to Him! Most of the times when I pray I'm either thanking God or just talking to Him. If you like to call that the "adult equivalent to an imaginary friend" so be it. I do think that it is interesting how many of you pray on the way to altitude. I thought that most skydivers were so into taking risks that they would never think of asking a "greater power" for protection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dove 0 #84 September 11, 2002 I have always prayed nightly. Not to ask for anything material in my life but to thank God for all I do have, to ask for forgiveness for any wrongdoings, and special prayer for family or friends or those in need. And ever since my freefall collision I say a little prayer on the plane. Just thanking God for the jump and asking for safety, altitude awareness and fun. Just reconnects and centers me before I jump. It was all God when I pulled in unconsciousness 8/26/01. Even though I had a cypres, that's no guarantee and I might not have survived the landing unconscious. So thanks again, God, for that 2nd chance. dove Fall in dove. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dove 0 #85 September 11, 2002 Oh - I forgot to mention that I am a firm believer in the power of prayer. When I shattered my leg in January it looked AWFUL. So many little pieces! The doc scheduled me for a plate and 7-12 screws as well as a full/partial miniscectomy (removal of "shock absorbers" in your knee). The surgury lasted 4 hours and the surgeon was amazed that it went as well as it did - only 2 HUGE bolts and a bone graft and all of my miniscus was fully intact. Almost impossible with a shattered tibial plateau like mine. He was delighted and bewildered. I had asked so many to pray for me especially just at the time my surgery was scheduled. No doubt in my mind that had something to do with it. Never underestimate... Oh - and just like skygirlpc, my prayers are more like conversations with God. I don't just pray to Him, I share with Him. I like it that way. Fall in dove. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #86 September 11, 2002 You're 'breaking down' is logically flawed. It is an example of the classic error of mistaking the properties of an object for the object itself. For example, most people feel really good then they go out of their way to help someone. However, usually, the reason they helped someone was not to feel good. The feeling good part is a result of helping, but not the goal itself. That is what you are confusing. You are also mistaken about salvation being a "self serving sin." Is it a sin to choose to live, rather than to die? If that is the case, perhaps skydiving is inherently sinful since we have to choose the 'self-serving' purpose of pulling every jump. Pulling acknowledges the truth of impending death if one does not pull, just like accepting Christ does the impending eternal death. Now, I grant you it is certainly not noble to accept based on that alone, but as the Bible says you just have to "believe" to be saved. If you have a problem with that then just reject Christianity. However, don't equate salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ with merely being good. In that case you are wrong as the bible itself says that one is "saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and that it is a GIFT so you can't be all proud that you were GOOD enough to be saved." ((paraphrased) see my above post for the citiation) QuoteAs long as salvation is the goal, it will always be contradictory and sinful in nature, and since the acceptance of Christ is centered around salvation. This is a philosophical argument for the incoherence of salvation based on a contradiction from the notion that acceptance of Christ is inherently selfish which would then be a sin. AND? That still does not argue against what my original post was about which was that Christianity is not about being GOOD to be saved but rather a relationship and belief in Jesus Christ. This does not jive with your original statement about breaking it down to "being good", because even if you are right then a Christian is inherently *SINFUL* by the very argument you give and therefore can't be good so your argument is also incoherent. About the "oh, I'll just repent and it'll all be ok". thing: Do you really think that if someone believes in Jesus for their salvation and chooses to submit to the will of God that they would say that? I venture that they were not really saved. Again, don't confuse results with the object itself. I end with some text about that as well: "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" -Romans 5:21 to 6:2 There's your answer straight from the horses mouth. If you need to know more I suggest reading Romans 5 - 8 in the new testament. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #87 September 11, 2002 QuoteYou are also mistaken about salvation being a "self serving sin." Is it a sin to choose to live, rather than to die? If that is the case, perhaps skydiving is inherently sinful since we have to choose the 'self-serving' purpose of pulling every jump. quite a statement. would this also include astranouts, miners, race car drivers, etc...i believe if you do not pull on purpose, intentionally comitting suicide, then that's wrong, but judgement is final at god's command. QuotePulling acknowledges the truth of impending death if one does not pull, just like accepting Christ does the impending eternal death. pulling is utilizing the good sense god gave you to keep from dying. QuoteNow, I grant you it is certainly not noble to accept based on that alone, but as the Bible says you just have to "believe" to be saved. actually the bible says (in jesus's words) "no one comes to the father, except through the son" so acceptance of jesus christ in your heart as your personal lord and saviour is what jesus's request is, it is an invitation to eternal salvation. QuoteIf you have a problem with that then just reject Christianity. while i feel you are a "brother" in christ, this statement is judgemental, and harsh. but nonetheless, your opinion. why not offer an opportunity to surrender and be submissive than to say "reject christianity?" QuoteHowever, don't equate salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ with merely being good. the bible is also "crystal" in this area as well: "it would be easier for a camel to pass throught the eye of a needle, than for a rich man depending on his good works to get him into the gates of heaven" QuoteIn that case you are wrong as the bible itself says that one is "saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and that it is a GIFT so you can't be all proud that you were GOOD enough to be saved." again, harsh, and judgemental. IMHO. many more souls could be won for the kingdom through kindness, than being judgemental or offensive. god also says "ask, and it shall be given" so being "saved" or "born again" is just a request away, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. so many have a hard heart because of the "get on your knees, or be damned and go to hell" mentality/attitude of the old "hard liners" as a christian, i know that i'll never be perfect, and i accept the fact that i am by nature sinful and unclean, and i am "chief of sinners" as well, so i am no better than anyone else, nor will i ever be. but i do know compassion, kindness and love will get through way before the "get on your knees" thing. take care everybody.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #88 September 11, 2002 You are also mistaken about salvation being a "self serving sin." Is it a sin to choose to live, rather than to die? If that is the case, perhaps skydiving is inherently sinful since we have to choose the 'self-serving' purpose of pulling every jump. ------------- Eternal life and life on Earth are two completely different concepts. You are confusing the two as a result of depending upon language for your interpretation, which in nature, limits the human understanding. ----------------- If you have a problem with that then just reject Christianity. ------------------- I am not rejecting CHRISTIANITY in the slightest, just modern interpretations. I believe that it has truth to it, but that the truth is hidden in the pages, not printed in bold letters and plain english. The bible itsself says in Jesus' own words, that everything is written unclearly and in parables so that one may not understand, but have to look to God for the answers. ---------------------- However, don't equate salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ with merely being good. ------------------ And what else is there? Follow this: If God sent Jesus purely for recognition and to be praised, and it is only through that praise that we may get to heaven, that is self serving on his part. We strive to be more God like in Christianity, correct? But doing something purely for praise is bad, right? So either that is true and we are wrong in our interpretation of what is right, God is not omnibenevolent, or we are off base in saying that praising him will get us to heaven. --------------------- This is a philosophical argument for the incoherence of salvation based on a contradiction from the notion that acceptance of Christ is inherently selfish which would then be a sin. ------------------------ I say again...If you accept Christ and are good to others for the sole purpose of going to heaven, then you are doing it all for a self serving purpose which is sinful in nature. 2 men walk down the road with their girlfriends and both see a bum. One of them says to themselves, "hey, if I give this guy a couple of bucks (say $10), it'll look good to my girlfriend and maybe I can get some." The second says to himself, "This poor guy, he's probably hungry. Maybe if I give him $5 it would help him out." Example A is accepting Christ to get to heaven. Example B is living through the love of Christ and making that transition in your life. They are two completely different concepts and to limit yourself by saying "it's all about acceptance of Christ" is flawed. ----------------------- This does not jive with your original statement about breaking it down to "being good", because even if you are right then a Christian is inherently *SINFUL* by the very argument you give and therefore can't be good so your argument is also incoherent. --------------------- This does not argue against what I am saying. Your arguement is saying that if I am right, then Christians are sinful, and we know that that's not true, so I must be wrong. We don't know that Christians aren't sinful in nature. The whole point of this discussion is to basically establish that, so using your own conclusion in the arguement itsself does not work. ----------------------- About the "oh, I'll just repent and it'll all be ok". thing: Do you really think that if someone believes in Jesus for their salvation and chooses to submit to the will of God that they would say that? I venture that they were not really saved. Again, don't confuse results with the object itself. -------------------- Again, I am not confused. There are those who would look at statements such as the one you made and assume that since they say the words "I accept Christ" that they are saved. I say again, IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT ACCEPTING CHRIST. The whole idea of this acceptance is based on salvation, and scaring people with images of eternal burning. It is a catalyst for a change, not the change itsself. To be clear: I am not (AM NOT) saying that Christianity itsself is wrong. I believe that there is truth to it. I don't believe, though, that modern Christians are completely correct in their interpretations of it. I think that by focusing too much on the religion, the relationship with God or whatever is out there is missed more times than not. I return to CS Lewis, who also said that it's not all about acceptance of Christ...he, being a widely accepted spokesperson for Christianity, said that he believed that there was something more that could be acheived through different means, meaning that some Christians, he believed, would go to heaven, as well as some Buddhists, Taoists, Hindu, etc. Acceptance of Christ is a superficial interpretation and way of explaining something that is much deeper. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #89 September 11, 2002 QuoteWe don't know that Christians aren't sinful in nature. we do know this. "we are concieved in sin, and by nature, we are sinful and unclean" thus the reason god sent his only son, jesus christ to die on calvary, for the sins of all men and women. we could litigate forever on religion, a lot of it is right, and a lot of it is wrong, and still more can and has been taken out of context, and still more has been lost in translation. bottom line: to be a christian, is to be "christlike" in nature, and action. well, we all know we screw up every day, no doubt about it. my philosophy is "try, with all your might to befriend your fellow man, to help when, and if you can, lead by example (which isn't easy, and almost ultimately unattainable) and love your fellow man as you love yourself. these are pretty basic "rules to live by" without having to resort to religion to "ascertain" who is wrong, and who is right, because humans and christians alike should not litigate christianity as it is an infinite subject, and often times more than not makes enemies out of friends. god gave each of us a "free will" to think for ourselves, thus each of us can, and do derive our own theorys about religion and life, it is also everyone's right to believe whatever they want to, and choose a lifestyle that some of us may not agree with, but it is their right. be assured that if you "do unto others" it will be done unto you, pretty much the ying/yang theory, good balances out evil. take care...be safe...--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #91 September 11, 2002 QuoteBOOBIES Yes. Blessed are the boobies. Thank you Lord, for the boobies, and the peace they bring me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,147 #92 September 11, 2002 ROFLMFAO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #93 September 11, 2002 QuoteBOOBIES valiant attempt clay! --Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #94 September 11, 2002 we do know this. ----------- Actually, we don't know that. That is exactly what we are reasoning to, and again, in an agruement, you cannot interject your conclusion into the arguement itsself. Your presumption is that Christianity is correct, which may or may not be true. If it is correct, then it is good in nature. If it is not, though, then we don't know what it is. We cannot, then, assume that it is good, and then build our reasoning to that end...you must reason through the religion and come to the conclusion that it is right/good or not, not the other way around. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #95 September 11, 2002 Quoteand the peace they bring me Is that "Peace" or "Piece" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #96 September 11, 2002 I prey upon skydiving women all the time... What's that? Pray! Ooops wrong thread... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #97 September 11, 2002 Quotewe could litigate forever on religion from my last post, to litigate is an exercise in futility. Quotebottom line: to be a christian, is to be "christlike" in nature, and action. my philosophy is "try, with all your might to befriend your fellow man, to help when, and if you can, lead by example (which isn't easy, and almost ultimately unattainable) and love your fellow man as you love yourself. these are pretty basic "rules to live by" without having to resort to religion to "ascertain" who is wrong, and who is right, because humans and christians alike should not litigate christianity as it is an infinite subject, and often times more than not makes enemies out of friends. god gave each of us a "free will" to think for ourselves, thus each of us can, and do derive our own theorys about religion and life, it is also everyone's right to believe whatever they want to, and choose a lifestyle that some of us may not agree with, but it is their right. be assured that if you "do unto others" it will be done unto you. also from my last post. i think this about sums it up, no matter what you believe...it's fairly generic--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #98 September 11, 2002 Ay, yi, yi. I asked a simple question and suddenly I am back in my Theology classes in College. That's what I get for asking this question of skydivers! Such deep thinkers. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #99 September 11, 2002 i strongly urge each, and everyone of you to visit: "Beliefnet" take care.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #100 September 11, 2002 Why does anyone think it is necessary to look to man for the words of god? Can you not hear the wind as you step from the door? Find meaning in sunlight, its there if you have eyes to see. Is the smell of the grass to obscure? Why bury the word in the ramblings of men, particularly men from the most fought over piece of land on earth? Every moment you spend reflecting, praying for or about something is a moment you are not living, a time when you missed the flow of life and instead focused on yourself. “You can never step into the same river twice” Religion is a method of control. The paths to the divine are infinite; blind faith in anyone else’s vision of god is the only true “sin”. look, feel and decide for yourself. The answers you quote from someone else’s mythology make you blind to any other idea of god. Just be. No intentions and light will come… (lately i find it at the edge of the door) ---------------------- "you could make a choice, but you never learned to think" -FW A part of the Machine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
