moodyskydiver 0 #51 August 16, 2002 What a crock of $%*# !!! She thinks she was mistreated b/c they didnt provide an interpreter,yet she jumps 3 TIMES!!!! If it were that big a deal about the "oh I didnt feel comfortable w/o an interpreter" crap then why in hell did she make herself uncomfortable by doin it 3 times?!!!! Sounds to me like she just wants to screw someone outta $$$ IMHO. Sorry for ranting...I know American Sign Language (hell my sister is an interpreter!)and have been around deaf people a good bit and this is just BS! Also to answer an earlier question: yes,there are some DZs here in Texas that are starting to provide jump material and training in Spanish and as far as I know,a few other languages too. OK sorry for bitchin'. This was just my .02 worth. "...just an earthbound misfit, I." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #52 August 16, 2002 QuoteTax Credits and Deductions To assist businesses with complying with the ADA, Section 44 of the IRS Code allows a tax credit for small businesses and Section 190 of the IRS Code allows a tax deduction for all businesses. The tax credit is available to businesses that have total revenues of $1,000,000 or less in the previous tax year or 30 or fewer full-time employees. This credit can cover 50% of the eligible access expenditures in a year up to $10,250 (maximum credit of $5000). The tax credit can be used to offset the cost of undertaking barrier removal and alterations to improve accessibility; providing accessible formats such as Braille, large print and audio tape; making available a sign language interpreter or a reader for customers or employees, and for purchasing certain adaptive equipment. The tax deduction is available to all businesses with a maximum deduction of $15,000 per year. The tax deduction can be claimed for expenses incurred in barrier removal and alterations. To learn more about the tax credit and tax deduction provisions, contact the DOJ ADA Information Line (see Information Sources for the numbers). For what it is worth, the DZ probably could have gotten some assistance (perhaps after the fact) in paying for the interpreter. Steve, QuoteI'm white, therefore don't see myself getting financial aid from the United Negro College Fund. There was actually a case in Maryland years ago where a white guy applied for a black race-based scholarship, got it, and won in court to keep it. They laws may have been changed, but there is still hope for us heavily-opressed straight, white, educated males. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #53 August 16, 2002 there is still hope for us heavily-opressed straight, white, educated males. --------------- Just so we're clear, I wouldn't fight to get money from the NAACP, or the UNCF...nor would I fight for a parade for straight people, nor would I insist that I get a larger airplane at the rental price of a smaller one. My point is that I could easily file these complaints on the basis on which this suit seems to stand. It's just plain ridiculous. Here's a question...if a licensed skydiver comes to a drop zone, should the drop zone be required to have an interpreter at all times while the jumper is there? What if he or she has a question, or gets hurt, etc.? -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #54 August 16, 2002 QuoteAnd if you can't get your wheelchair over that big curb, screw it This brings up a different thought. Why the fuck are the handicap parking spaces closest to the building? They're the one with wheels! Seriously, my 11 year old niece is deaf. She does receive special assistance in school in regard to speech, etc. However, her parents have never considered her "disability" (she doesn't even think she has one) is anyone elses responsibility. Hell, they even paid for the highway signs that were installed outside their home that say "Caution, deaf child". _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #55 August 16, 2002 QuoteJust so we're clear, I wouldn't fight to get money from the NAACP, or the UNCF...nor would I fight for a parade for straight people, nor would I insist that I get a larger airplane at the rental price of a smaller one... My point is that I could easily file these complaints on the basis on which this suit seems to stand. It's just plain ridiculous. Me neither, and it is ridiculous. But for those that did, I can enjoy the irony without supporting their idiocy. As for the interpreter for a licensed jumper, hell if I know. I guess they'd have to work something out between them. It would be better than going to court. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #56 August 16, 2002 I can enjoy the irony without supporting their idiocy. ----------- That's a great way to word it...that's funny. ----------- It would be better than going to court. ----------- Anything is better than going to court. :) -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #57 August 16, 2002 >and I'm sure paraplegics with use of their arms could perform a > decent skydive (probably could do an awesome head-down, too) > and use a round canopy or maybe even a square with some good >forgiving F111's that are out there. Dan Fairchild is paralyzed from the waist down, and he jumps a Stiletto (190? 170?) at a somewhat high loading - he's got to be over 200 lbs. He still hooks, though not too aggressively, and he has a padded "butt plate" to help protect his spine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #58 August 16, 2002 Yeah and I saw a guy on Real TV that had had lost both legs in a mid-air collision with another skydiver. He has two very stick-like false legs that (while wearing a jumpsuit) allow him to still do RW no differently than before.Good for him! My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #59 August 16, 2002 >Skydiving really isn't the issue at all. It is, in that there are some activities where a physical disability renders one essentially unable to do the activity. All the help in the world won't make it any easier for someone with no arms and no legs to go through AFF. Now, if they wanted to spend the money to have Ted Strong build them a harness that would keep them in, and do a few tandems - heck, even get a restricted A license - that would be great. But I can't see how it would be anyone else's responsibility to do that for them. Deafness - same thing. It's possible to do. Learn to read, and use the written material provided, or just read the white board. Learn to read lips. Take a friend with you who can sign - I once taught a FJC through a translator. If the DZ objects to any of this, they have a pretty good grievance. But for the person to object because they don't feel like doing _any_ of the above, because it's just too much trouble? That's taking advantage. One of the reasons that this bugs me is that I know several 'disabled' people who would be insulted if anyone suggested they were handicapped. Ailish, who had one hand, and played women's basketball and volleyball in college. Jay, who had no legs, but was a better skydiver than most of the people in Tent 1 at Quincy '95. Harry, who I jumped with this year, who was both deaf and had only one arm. Compare these people to someone who's just terminally stupid, and it's pretty clear which one needs more help to live a normal life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #60 August 16, 2002 QuoteOne of the reasons that this bugs me is that I know several 'disabled' people who would be insulted if anyone suggested they were handicapped. Ailish, who had one hand, and played women's basketball and volleyball in college. Jay, who had no legs, but was a better skydiver than most of the people in Tent 1 at Quincy '95. Harry, who I jumped with this year, who was both deaf and had only one arm. Compare these people to someone who's just terminally stupid, and it's pretty clear which one needs more help to live a normal life. When I used to work for USAA, my boss was blind. He developed the condition from glaucoma and lost all his sight by the time he was in high school. He was (and still is) a programmer for the company for the past 17 years, and is typically more productive than sighted people becuase his interpreter (anyone that uses JAWS for Windows knows about this stuff) is turned up to mega-auctioneer speed. He can fly through his email faster than Clay can make nonsense postings about his penis. I'm even certain a blind person could perform a normal skydive (solo) thanks to the ingenious things we have like dytters and radios. We have come a long way since the 1970s. For most people out there, the only thing keeping you from doing what you desire is willpower. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #61 August 16, 2002 I'm even certain a blind person could perform a normal skydive (solo) thanks to the ingenious things we have like dytters and radios. ---------- We had a blind person skydive out at Perris this past weekend. He is not limited to solos...in this case he did an 8 point 2 way (and yes, he was active in it, it wasn't just the other guy turning points around him). I have also heard of him doing larger ways...he just pulls in place and is radioed down. He has around 1500 jumps, over 500 of which have been since he lost his sight completely. It is pretty cool to see. (no pun intended) :) -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #62 August 16, 2002 QuoteCompare these people to someone who's just terminally stupid, and it's pretty clear which one needs more help to live a normal life. I agree with you. But the law is more forgiving in this case, and is geared to help those who aren't willing to put in the effort of the people you mentioned. Even idiots deserve the accommodations, because that is what the law says. The people who lead full lives without the accommodations because of their perseverance and intelligence are the ones who get my respect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #63 August 16, 2002 QuoteWe had a blind person skydive out at Perris this past weekend. He is not limited to solos...in this case he did an 8 point 2 way (and yes, he was active in it, it wasn't just the other guy turning points around him). I have also heard of him doing larger ways...he just pulls in place and is radioed down. He has around 1500 jumps, over 500 of which have been since he lost his sight completely. I'm sure the emergency procedures would have to be specialized since you can't see things like torn fabric, closed end cells, and other canopy traffic. But, there are work-arounds for almost all those situations. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #64 August 16, 2002 QuoteThe people who lead full lives without the accommodations because of their perseverance and intelligence are the ones who get my respect. Uh. My sister, who is deaf and has cerebral palsy, earned a bachelor's degree in business thanks to both her perseverance and those legally required accommodations. They're not crutches; they help some people do things other people take for granted. My sister, while very smart, could not have lip-read and taken notes for 15 hours a week. Let's not lump everyone in the same category.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
algboy 0 #65 August 17, 2002 $400 paid out for the sign language interpreter-- $195 income for the tandem jump-- $205 "loss" to the Disability Nazis-- Free publicity for other Disablity Nazis to come to your dropzone and skydive, too? ..............Priceless “Keep your elbow up!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
algboy 0 #66 August 17, 2002 Just a followup thought: I wear contacts, should the DZ have to provide me with special goggles? My mom is environmentally sensitive. Should the DZ provide a "de-scented" KingAir for her and make sure every jumper is wearing no cologne? Should we provide gondolas up to Mt Rushmore for braillle readers? I mean where does this "equal access" h@rsesh!t end? Skydiving is not a need--it's a want--and one people can live without. In this schizophrenic world, all "wants" become "needs" and eventually become "rights." I say fight the good fight--make a stand!“Keep your elbow up!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #67 August 17, 2002 I'm aromatically-challenged. I think I should be shielded from the infrurious odeiferous aeroexcrementations from oblivious people! (aka farting in the plane) POWER TO THE PEOPLE! THE A.C.L.U. SHALL STAND BEHIND US! DOWN WITH THE AEROEXCREMENTATION IN OUR SKYDIVING PLANES!!!!! ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #68 August 17, 2002 QuotePOWER TO THE PEOPLE! THE U.C.L.A. SHALL STAND BEHIND US! the University of California, Los Angeles shall stand behind us? Uh.. can we pass on that?I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #69 August 17, 2002 Sorry... I had "drain bramage." (corrected) ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #70 August 17, 2002 QuoteI wonder about those dropzones close by the border, like in El Paso, San Marcos, SPI, Eloy, Perris... will they be sued because they don't have Spanish-language Tandem and AFF courses? These students have no way of communicating with the DZ staff Sorry to burst the thought, but most large DZ's have staff from different countries. When called upon they provide trasulation duties........for no fee!!! There was a case against the red cross once for the same thing, only this person wanted to be a life guard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whatme 0 #71 August 17, 2002 [ Start of Ranting] I just read all the postings. I cannot believe after 3 tandems she is going to sue. When I did my tandem all they showed me to do is arch and how to put my feet up when we left the plane. There really isn't much else to know. As for ADA even people with sexual dysfunctions can be covered under that act. Now what does that tell you about ADA. I think it should go back to when it first started and only cover people with real disabilities and not cover what every Tom Jane and Harry gripe about. As for her I agree that she should have someone go with her that she gets to intrepert and the dz should not have to pay.[end of Ranting] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitysurf808 0 #72 August 17, 2002 QuoteThat is my home dz (that is where I learned to skydive). That is where I met gravitysurf808. And the lawyer is our brother and fellow skydiver. I just want to show support for Skydive Hastings. It is the best student dz I've ever been to. I learned a lot there and will always call it home. There is some awesome family there. GOT MUCH LOVE FOR YA SKYDIVE HASTINGS!! GO KICK SOME ASS IN THAT COURTROOM!!!!!! Right on Hohonukai. Couldn't be more behind you. I actually used to be an instructor/jm at Hastings and even managed the DZ for three seasons. During my time working there I've always seen the DZ try to be as accommodating as reasonably possible towards anyone who's physically challenged and want to participate in our sometime physically challenging sport. A few examples: As I recall we took up paraplegic tandem passengers on numerous occasions. Average would be 2-3 per season. We even had one in particular (Terry) almost to the point of being qualified to obtain the first ever restricted A-License (in 1992). Unfortunately for him he had to go away for some legal stuff and a woman obtained hers just before him ( My since CONGRATS to her!!) or the time when.... A friend of a regular jumper who weighed 320+ pounds wanted to make just 'one' tandem jump. Defying our own 250 lb max we advised him to stay on stand by for a weekend when higher winds were forecasted. Once that weekend arrived we used our lightest Tandem Master. Jump went off without a problem. or the time when... A friend of my brothers who was stricken with some disease that I can't seem to recall but it rendered his body all bunched up and twisted in his wheel chaer wanted to make a jump. The tandem harness was almost not small enough, nor configured properly to contain him. We ‘accommodated’ and the jump went off without a hitch.(Oh and btw...thanks Dave C. for all your efforts with said jumps!!!) As was mentioned in the article we had trained via tandem method a few other people who were deaf. No complaints from them. We involved the use of a second staff member using text to write out questions from the passenger and answers from the tandem master while the TM demonstrated physically. The passengers usually had a close friend with them as well who assisted in this training. So I guess it's welcome to our society that we currently reside in. A society where I can smoke cigarettes all my life and then after I die of cancer my family can sue for and win millions because I wasn't told it was bad for me. Cough-cough-cough....ummm….DUH! What we all do every weekend involves considerable personable risk and requires for the sake of safety at least fair personal physical capabilities. We were asked to accept and acknowledge this by signature when we jumped for the first time. Reading this ladies interview (which btw how could this even happen if she cannot understand truly understand written text in English yet it was reported occurred over a text base phone system) it became apparent that her motive follows a 'poor me' now 'bend over backwards for me' attitude. I mean come on... Tandem Price- $199 Cost to DZ for a interpreter- $400 = DZ PAYING HER $201 for each jump that she makes. Wish I could've got my student jumps paid for by the DZ! UPDATE: My good friend who is also the skydiving attorney representing Skydive Hastings in this case has communicated to some of us that after the initial 2 day hearing before sending it to trial went "REALLY WELL" for Skydive Hastings. Nothing is guaranteed but I hope this is good news regarding final results of this joke of a lawsuit!! (Keep it up Mike D Just my longwinded emotional .02 . Thanks all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #73 August 17, 2002 It'll get thrown out. The media will get thier personal interest story. Legally the ADA (americans w/ disabilities act) says only "reasonable accommodation" must be made. The woman says in the article that she can communicate w/ text but she feels she communicates better w/ sign. If businesses were compelled to provide 'the BEST accommodation' or 'personally preferred accommodation' they'd be financially broke. I think once the civil rights commission understands that commuunication during a jump is signed it'll be thrown out. Her lawyer says he will claim skydiving is a "serious and complex" activity which warrants an sign interpreter to "feel she fully understands the instruction." Reasonable accommodation is to provide concise written instruction. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #74 August 24, 2002 Question: can't a dropzone simply refuse to do business with someone? I understand that the woman in question would probably still sue for discrimination, but it seems like there could be a way for the dz to simply say we do not want your business without making deafness an issue. For example, an airline pilot has the legal right to refuse passage to anyone. Does a jump pilot have the same legal right?A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skypeg1 0 #75 September 13, 2002 Quote$400 paid out for the sign language interpreter-- $195 income for the tandem jump-- $205 "loss" to the Disability Nazis-- Free publicity for other Disablity Nazis to come to your dropzone and skydive, too? ..............Priceless Actually, the Nazis exterminated people with disabilities. Look, this woman is a jerk and her attorney is stupid. The Dept. of Justice implementation rules are very clear--a reasonable accomodation related to communication does not have to utilize the "best" method; only an adequate one. Having said that, there are a lot of skydivers with disabilities--I happen to be one. But the overwhelming majority of accomodations requested are minor. But I could do without the "Nazi" references. "Don't look now, but your ideology is showing." Skypeg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
