creation or evolution, which do you believe

[rhino 0]

O.K. Picture this...


And God created the HEavens and the earth,,

BAM!! It was... Fossils and all.. So much for the theory of evolution.

Rhino

[grega 0]

i most certenly believe in evolution!

but maybe human braines are not trained enough to understand the, so called "big bang" maybe we don't have our logic "logical enough" to understand it... who knows. time will surely tell! i just hope to live that long

"George just lucky i guess!"

[SatchFan 0]

How can anyone argue against evolution?? Is somebody going around and burying all those fossils to play a joke on us??

[goose491 0]

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i think i kinda believe in both.

Can't really. They're mutually exclusive.

An unstopable cannon ball hitting an unbreakable wall... That's mutually exclusive. Creation and evolution are not. Who's to say that he/she/it created us in his/her/it's image but we're not done yet?... Or that the final product is planned but it takes time to develop. Who's to say that evolution was not part of the major plan of creation? If life is an "experiment" as many beleive, than "evolution" is the series of variables... All experiments have variables.

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and also, if i'm correct, the bible says god created earth in 7 days, so my question is, what is a gods day?? who knows, a gods day could be a billion years to us, or it could be 2 min.s to us.

If you don't believe the Bible in it's literal sense, then the entire thing falls apart. It's either -exactly- as stated, or it just doesn't make sense. So, the days as referenced in the Bible would be one sunset to the next sunset. Period -- end of discussion. Unless of course, you just don't have faith in the word as it is written.

Yeah but you cannot take NUMBERS literally in the Bible. There is a study called numerology. If I were to tell you that I was going to a party and that there was gonna be a million-billion people there, you would understand that there are going to be many people... not actually "a million-billion". That's just a thing we people say. In the bible, you will read the number 40 and should understand that the author ment the same thing. Fourty was like saying "a million-billion" back then. For example, Jesus did NOT spend 40 days and 40 nights in the desert. He just spend a whole wheck of a lot of time there and the historians of the time recorded 40/40 to let us know... Times change and that is the human flaw of the holly book. Other examples.. Why is 666 Satan's number? It's not, it's just that back then, 6 represented evil and 3 represents perfection... 666=perfect evil!

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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Creation. Man was created by a God. ummm, how can you falsefy that? You have to take it at face value. You can't investigate the reasoning behind it.

I cannot falsefy it but you can certainly investigate the reasoning behind it. Science itself prooves that there is a force unknown behind the creation of life. Familiar with the chaos theory? The Natural State of things is Chaos or disorder and the only way to bring order about is through Work.

Example 1: If you plant a bunch of trees in perfect rows (Work), withing a few years (maybe many) those rows will have gone to sh*t for the new trees growing wherever the seeds happen to land (Chaos). The only way to get your perfect rows back is to cut down some trees (Work).

Example 2: "Your bedroom is always a mess!!!" (natural state=chaos). If you'd put some effort into it now and again, it wouldn't get that way! (Work=order)

Thus, life itself is proof that there was a conscient effort to create order. Look at what determines all for living beings, DNA. What a perfect little jig-saw puzzle. All the little pieces fall together perfectly!

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[rhino 0]

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How can anyone argue against evolution??

Ang God created the heavens and the earth.

Check out this site.. This man was an athiest SCIENTIST turned christian by his own scientific research.

http://www.creationworldview.org/_docs/articles.htm

Rhino

[BikerBabe 0]

First, one of skygod7777's questions:

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and evolution. if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes around if we "evolved".

Evolution doesn't mean that once one genome or species is "used up" it just dies off. Read some of Steven Jay Gould for a good scientific, yet accessible view on human evolution. Basically, we branched like a tree from a common ancestor, something that was primitive ape and human, and evolved from there. Chimpanzees as they they exist now were not around when this happened, they, too, evolved from a common ancestor. In biblical terms, both apes and humans have the same "Eve", if you will.

As for Paul...I think they are anything but mutually exclusive.

I, too, believe in both...

To answer many of your points, and many of the other points on this thread, as a Christian, I believe in God and Jesus. However, I also take the Bible as a guide on how to live my life...NOT a science or history textbook. The authors of the bible never INTENDED it to be taken as a science or history textbook. I believe that evolution is part of God's unfathomable plan for us. The creation story, IMHB, was given to placate a bunch of curious minds...people who were curious about something that they could never comprehend at their current stage of mental or technological development. It's like going back in time and asking an ancient Hebrew person to explain the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Or it's like trying to imagine the concepts of "infinity" or "nothing".

Right there in Genesis it says that God gave us free will, and with that a rational, thinking mind. Why the heck would He give us such a powerful ability if He didn't want us to use it? He also didn't tell us all the answers when we asked, like any good teacher or parent.

Consequently, I believe science is our way of discovering (and uncovering) more and more about the God who put us here. Quantum physics, molecular biology, cosmology, all of those ARE God.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[happythoughts 0]

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Creation.....

I don't believe we evolved from monkeys or dolphins..

This is where faith comes into play. If you ask me for my "logical reasoning", I would tell you to read the bible...

Rhino

If we evolved from monkeys, then why would there still be monkeys?

[rhino 0]

http://www.creationworldview.org/_docs/articles.htm

I said I DON'T believe that silly.. This url will answer your questions..


Rhino

[happythoughts 0]

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Can't really. They're mutually exclusive.

Actually, it's the same explanation. Two explanations using the concept of infinity.

Evolution - stuff has been around and it changes. Eventually, after 5 billion years, you get here. The universe has been here for an infinite amount of time.

Creation - God created stuff. It has been around for a long, long time. God has been here for an infinite amount of time.

How else do you explain the universe to a bunch of camel jockeys? They couldn't even explain trichinosis, so they just said "God says you shouldn't eat pigs because you ignorant butt-munches don't have refrigeration." Made it easier.

Why plant at this time of year?
Explanation 1 - the rotation of the planet controls the beginning of the planting season...
Explanation 2 - the Earth is flat and the Goddess Eastre commands us to hold a fertility dance around a maypole, hide eggs, and plant starting tomorrow.

Hmmm... Which is easier to explain? Depends on the target audience, doesn't it?

[happythoughts 0]

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http://www.creationworldview.org/_docs/articles.htm

I said I DON'T believe that silly.. This url will answer your questions..

Rhino

I know what you meant. That is just my favorite question. It is just a joke.

[Iflyme 0]

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And God created the HEavens and the earth

The concept of "blind faith" frightens me ...

As our ability to investigate our environment -- from sub-atomic particles to the large-scale structure of the universe -- grows, it is becomes clear that we have incredible potential for discovery ahead of us. But our species is young ... there is much more to discover. I believe that one day we will understand what happened in those first nanoseconds of the Big Bang.

But we don't necessarily have "forever" to answer these questions. There is an asteroid out there on an intercept course with this planet. In the past year alone, there have been a couple of "near misses" ... our species will be wiped out if we do not get off this planet, and spread our "seed" to other worlds.
Tell me this: Why would a "God" put us here, and give us so much, only to destroy us as we grow???

Try to imagine how the dinosaurs would have evolved if 65 millions years ago, an asteroid hadn't spoiled their party!

Evidence of evolution? Supergerms ... bugs that quickly evolve to resist particular antibiotics.

[wmw999 2,150]

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If we evolved from monkeys, then why would there still be monkeys?

For the nig-noggery, of course!

I evolved from my father, and he's still around, too.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[happythoughts 0]

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"Science itself prooves that there is a force unknown behind the creation of life. "

Nah. There is an exception. You are talking about a "Prime Mover". If you are sitting in a room with dominos in it. They come in one door and out the other. You see dominos falling. Did someone outside the room push over the first one? A "Prime Mover"? Some all-powerful God who put it in motion? Nope. The universe has always been here, in motion, for an infinite amount of time.

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Example 1: If you plant a bunch of trees in perfect rows (Work), withing a few years (maybe many) those rows will have gone to sh*t for the new trees growing wherever the seeds happen to land (Chaos). The only way to get your perfect rows back is to cut down some trees (Work).

The universe isn't in any "perfect order". This sounds like a proof for evolution. Plant of bunch of trees, the weak ones get crowded out and die. Only the ones "naturally selected" will exist.
DNA changes too. When Europeans went to Hawaii, the locals didn't have any natural defense against measles and hundreds died. Just measles. DNA and human bodies do adapt and change.

[jtval 0]

CREvolution? thats the best way to sum up my theory!

My photos

My Videos

[happythoughts 0]

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If we evolved from monkeys, then why would there still be monkeys?

For the nig-noggery, of course!

I evolved from my father, and he's still around, too.

Yeah, but your dad is another person.

What if you were the first person to evolve and the rest of your cousins/uncles/aunts were still monkeys? (If this is too personal a question, don't answer. ) You bring a date home. "Uhhhh... this is my dad... yeah, he likes to fling poo... there's my brother... yeah, he's eating lice off my sisters back... ".

Talk about an embarrassing date.

[goose491 0]

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"Science itself prooves that there is a force unknown behind the creation of life. "

Nah. There is an exception. You are talking about a "Prime Mover". If you are sitting in a room with dominos in it. They come in one door and out the other. You see dominos falling. Did someone outside the room push over the first one? A "Prime Mover"? Some all-powerful God who put it in motion? Nope. The universe has always been here, in motion, for an infinite amount of time.

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Example 1: If you plant a bunch of trees in perfect rows (Work), withing a few years (maybe many) those rows will have gone to sh*t for the new trees growing wherever the seeds happen to land (Chaos). The only way to get your perfect rows back is to cut down some trees (Work).

The universe isn't in any "perfect order". This sounds like a proof for evolution. Plant of bunch of trees, the weak ones get crowded out and die. Only the ones "naturally selected" will exist.
DNA changes too. When Europeans went to Hawaii, the locals didn't have any natural defense against measles and hundreds died. Just measles. DNA and human bodies do adapt and change.

I think you may be missing my point in these examples. The fact that the Universe isn't in any "perfect order" is exactly my point! That's the CHAOS theory. The natural state of all things is DISORDER. Your argument that the weak ones get crowded out and die supports evolution (Which I already agree with). The point of the example however is that you will not find trees growing in perfect rows anywhere on the planet unless someone planted them that way AND maintains them that way. This shows how "order" comes only at the cost of "work" or "effort".

Your example with the dominos is a great one! However, the Prime Mover is not the most important part. It's about how the Dominos got into a perfect line in the first place. Donimos are nothing until you PUT them in order Thus, the dominos could not be in a straight line (order) unless someone place each one where it is supposed to be (work).

DNA changes yes. But if each piece of the puzzle is not perfectly matched with the next, the order is not correct and life does not exist the way we know it. There was work or effort put forth in combining the acids and proteins in the correct combo to begin with.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[narcimund 0]

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God, to me, is Planck's constant. He is the Heisenburg uncertainty principle.

Oh, major wet spot on my chair now...

More and more I'm thinking Mikkif is my long lost twin sister. I've got to go ask my mother some piercing questions...

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Cajones 0]

Maybe god just created us a moment ago. With all of our memories, and history, the internet, y'know - everything - and none of us existed before 5 seconds ago. Maybe it's just an experiment of a huge super-computer in a lab somewhere in the "real" world, and we're all just a bunch of ones and zeros in this huge computer, and we'll cease to exist when the user switches from Sims to Final Fantasy. Maybe we're just here to worship our creator, and all of the other things we do are just a waste of precious time we should be using to sing songs and praises for our creator.

Lots of possibilities out there. If Seti finds signals from another sentient race, maybe god designed that, too. He doesn't mention it in the bible (nor does any of the authors), but he forgot about fossils, too. Islam doesn't mention it, but if there is someone out there, Islam tells you to accept and love them. Buddah would seek to understand them. The cows wouldn't care if they did or did not drink milk or prefer steak over chicken.

I'm with the cows on this one. We have found order in our chaos. We continue to unlock the secrets of the world around us and beyond. We have knowlege of where we come from. Our race is evolving right before our very eyes. Not just that we're getting taller, or smarter. We are becomming more aware. We are all connected. At our silvery umbilical cord or our relationship with "god" - we are in this together. Why should we decide before we have all of the evidence?

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[KawiZX900 0]

i read somthin to the tune of 3 pieces of the thread here, and after the evolution moth/london thing a little neuron fired and i remembered reading about that a decade ago, then I had fun scrolling thru the thread just fast enough that i could not read anything, yet knew it was there to read. which was quite a bit of fun actually. kinda like holding a toggle down, but not. sadly.

Accelerate hard to get them looking, then slam on the fronts and rollright beside the car, hanging the back wheel at eye level for a few seconds. Guaranteed reaction- Dave Sonsky

[billvon 2,435]

>I don't believe we evolved from monkeys or dolphins..

Do you believe that Cro-Magnon man (i.e. us) evolved from Neanderthal man? How about the fossil records that show humans in between both phenotypes?

I suppose that could be interpreted as another instance of god creating a false fossil record to trick us, but like I said before, I don't believe in a trickster god.

[billvon 2,435]

>If you don't believe the Bible in it's literal sense, then the entire
> thing falls apart. It's either -exactly- as stated, or it just doesn't
> make sense.

This isn't true for anything else. If a medical text that millions of doctors used to cure people contains an error due to incomplete/erroneous information, is the rest of the information voided? Are all those people un-cured?

I think the bible is best judged by its effects, not its contents. Just about every religion out there has tenets of faith that are provably false, but that doesn't invalidate the religion. The important thing is that a great many people believe in the bible and it works for them, even if it contains a lot of errors (as does nearly everything written by man.)

[rhino 0]

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The concept of "blind faith" frightens me ...

Their is nothing BLIND about faith.. Look at the link and you will find scientific evidence..

Faith is LEARNED, nothing about my faith is blind. Not having faith is blind in my opinion..

I would rather have faith and be wrong then not have faith and be wrong..


Rhino

[rhino 0]

Actually Bill their is a missing link of time in tha fossil records...

[billvon 2,435]

I took a look at that site. It's pretty silly. Some examples:

He claims the universe is about 6000 years old. Stellar background microwave radiation temperatire, Doppler shift on departing stars, and the very speed of light prove this false on a universal perspective. (i.e. even if god created the whole universe at once 6000 years ago, and put all the stars in place, 'aging' some artificially to make them appear older than primary sequence, we wouldn't see most of them since the light hasn't gotten here yet!)

Here on Earth, the Oklo natural nuclear reactors have been shut down for about 2 billion years, and since then, their fission products have been breaking down according to the accepted laws of physics. Unless you propose that god assembled a spent nuclear reactor underground, and primed it with all the fission breakdown products in the perfect proportions to trick us, then the earth is a lot older than 6000 years. Again, you can believe in a trickster god - I don't.

He also just doesn't understand physics. For example:

"Space is not a true vacuum. As light travels across space it will eventually hit a gas or dust particle. When it does, the object will heat up and re-emit light at a "warmer" or "redder" wave length, thus making the light appear as though red shift had taken place, when indeed it had not."

This just doesn't work. Re-emission of infrared radiation does of course occur, and looks nothing like Doppler shift.

This is one of those cases where a scientist publishes something silly, and he is taken seriously because there are people who desperately want to believe what he says. There have been all sorts of scientists like this - ones who 'proved' the black race was inferior, ones who 'proved' we will never fly, ones who 'proved' that man could not live in space or make a rocket that would work in space. They seem to last as long as it takes to actually fly, or get to the moon, or have a black guy become secretary of state.