kkeenan 13 #1 July 24, 2007 Today is the anniversary of the death of Ted Nelson. For any newbies or those who don't remember, Ted was the jumper who progressed like crazy through downsizing of swooping canopies, and told everyone who tried to advise him differently to fuck off. He was killed in a bad swoop attempt. The DZ.com discussion was very educational, and is located here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2346556 Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #2 July 24, 2007 Quote For any newbies or those who don't remember, Ted was the jumper who progressed like crazy through downsizing of swooping canopies, and told everyone who tried to advise him differently to fuck off. He was killed in a bad swoop attempt. Sadly that doesn't narrow it down too much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #3 July 24, 2007 So what's the point of bringing this up again? If it is supposed to be educational, then you could have introduced it without the trashing of the dead victim's reputation... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derekbox 0 #4 July 24, 2007 Didnt his reputation trash itself? The real victims are those left behind, his family, loved ones and friends. The point is pretty obvious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #5 July 25, 2007 I see a PM from a pissed off Auntie in your future.....Be safe Ed www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speer 0 #6 July 25, 2007 John, While I salute your desire to avoid impugning the reputation of Ted, I have to ask, at what cost? I'm fairly certain that Kevin's intent was not to "pile on", but was likely driven rather by a desire to reduce the carnage. I don't know Kevin, and didn't know Ted, but I'm no stranger to regret over inability to effect change in those I was responsible for. We humans are a queer species... especially those of us who seek out activities which place us in a position of increased risk. A certain amount of confidence is a requirement for success, however, like any strength, an excess can lead to tragedy. I see Kevin's post as an attempted wake up call to those who have tipped the scale of sensibility beyond their accumulated experience and ability to respond appropriately in a life threatening incident. For some, the price paid to learn humility is not severe, for others like Ted, the cost is ultimate. By the grace of God, I have survived my own idiotic decisions and missteps. While I would not wish to increase the suffering of Ted's loved ones, I'm afraid I come down on the side of Kevin in seeing that a blunt reminder that insolence can and will kill serves the greater good. I also believe it is a greater honor to honestly use Ted's mistake in pursuit of reduced injury and death, and I hope family and friends of Ted see this thread as such. There is a sadness which bites very deeply when a friend, loved one, or some one your are advising does something stupid which results in tragedy... and I suppose that changes those who experience it forever... others will never understand the mindset which develops in the aftermath of such preventable loss, where those who were involved are sincere enough to ask themselves where they went wrong, and what more could they have done to get through to the victim... I'm very sorry for those I was responsible for, yet failed to set an appropriate or effective example for... no doubt that's in part the source of my sig line... Russ Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #7 July 25, 2007 I have this to say... Blue skies Ted May your memories keep others from the same fate...and I totally think this is Kevins point even though I dont know him Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tedsauntcindy 0 #8 July 25, 2007 Bodypilot was right. You are getting a PM from an upset aunt of Mr. Nelson. All I can say to you is it is too bad that nobody would care to remenber the anniversary of your passing. Ted accomplished more in his 29 years than you will in a lifetime, Mr. Keenan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #9 July 25, 2007 QuoteBodypilot was right. You are getting a PM from an upset aunt of Mr. Nelson. All I can say to you is it is too bad that nobody would care to remenber the anniversary of your passing. Ted accomplished more in his 29 years than you will in a lifetime, Mr. Keenan. That seems like a pretty clear personal attack to me. I agree with Kevin.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tedsauntcindy 0 #10 July 25, 2007 Ah yes, the "clear personal attack" defense! I'd say there is less personal attack in my message than Kevin's You folks love to judge others. I think this entire thread should be deleted and ask the moderator to do so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #11 July 25, 2007 QuoteAh yes, the "clear personal attack" defense! I'd say there is less personal attack in my message than Kevin's You folks love to judge others. I think this entire thread should be deleted and ask the moderator to do so. Nope. Sorry, but the rules around here are pretty clear; if you screw up and die we will dissect your actions, statements and attitudes without mercy. Unfortunately Ted left a lot to dissect. Basically he became the poster boy for arrogance being a killer. It doesn't mean we didn't like him, it doesn't mean we don't miss him; it just means we are willing to use him as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,464 #12 July 25, 2007 >You folks love to judge others. That's because our sport kills us rapidly if we do not learn from the mistakes of others. Understanding what other people do (and deciding whether or not it was the right thing to do) helps keep us alive. It's wrong to post about an incident like this and say "that guy was a big jerk." But it's quite different to post about an incident like this and say "this is what happened. We tried to stop him, but we just couldn't get through to him." >I think this entire thread should be deleted and ask the moderator to do so. One of the purposes of this forum is to discuss safety and training issues with an eye towards keeping skydivers alive. We have all met someone like Ted, and we have battered our heads against the wall trying to get them to slow down, lest they find themselves in the same sort of situation Ted did. It was one of the biggest problems I faced as an S+TA, and one of the biggest causes of injury and death in the sport today. Threads like this can be difficult to read especially if you knew the person involved very well. There can be a strong desire to "not speak ill of the dead" and to suppress any mention of what they did wrong, how they could have progressed differently etc so as not to besmirch their memory. However, that sort of approach will not help the next Ted learn from the mistakes made by this one - and thus we let threads like this stay up, since they may help save people from injury or worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 July 25, 2007 Perhaps, just maybe Ted can also accomplish something after death too. Mabe you're not familiar with the trends in this sport, but Ted dies because he did not listen to the words of those who had seen this type of thing before. He failed to see the examples laid before him. Maybe the celebration of his life, can include the small but fatal error in judgment he made so that others might live on. It's not a new trend in skydiving to use the death of someone that was cared about to help prevent others from making the same mistakes. Sticking your head in the sand, and trying to hide an accident, does nothing positive.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tedsauntcindy 0 #14 July 25, 2007 I am suprised...the Blue Skies forum is said to serve other purposes. And I have yet to read anything the least bit educational in this thread. Instead, kkeenan simply says Ted "fucked up". Is that a skydiving term of art? Oh, and the post that says that Ted's reputation trashed itself? That doesn't constitute a personal attack under your forum rules? HMMMM very interesting. You aren't interested in learning at this post. You are just folks wanting to feel superior. How sad. Hope that you find only blue skies...and not black death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #15 July 25, 2007 Cindy not a single one of us was happy about Ted passing...we only hope that others can learn from his mistakes... I was like Ted...I didn't listen...I got really lucky and only broke my ankle... it made me step back... some of us don't get fortunate like I did. We hope that by bringing this up we can keep others from making fatal mistakes and taking their time in swooping... that is all, it has nothing to do with feeling superior.... Cheers and Blues Cindy. Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tedsauntcindy 0 #16 July 25, 2007 Billvon, and which message is it that discusses what happened to Ted? I agree that reference back to last year's thread might be helpful to others. But just saying he "fucked up"? Yes, that will help many to learn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #17 July 25, 2007 Yes, we do judge others. That's called "self-policing" which we are expected to do. Sorry if reality is not to your liking but Ted's own actions lead to his unfortunate demise. To sugar coat the lesson AND reminder would not serve others well. QuoteThe Macho pilot Impulsive pilot "anit-authority" pilot Invulnerable pilot Resigned pilot Ted exhibited at least 4 of the 5 bad attitudes for flying. This is not just a skydiving thing it's a flying thing and many aviators before him have perished due to the same problems. Ted's legacy at least on this forum is that he was warned and then what he was warned about happened. It's not like saying I know there's going to be a car accident on the highway and then days later one happens and we say "see! see!" This is a matter of "this driver will get himself into a situation where raw luck will not get him out of because he does not listen to reasoned information." The accident happens with THIS particular driver and then we say "see, I told you so." Sad but true. I'm sure he was a nice guy. I'm sure he made you smile and laugh. I'm sure he donated his time to good causes. But as a pilot, he had serious problems. People tried to tell him about those serious problems. And he did not listen and so he got himself killed. Period.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tedsauntcindy 0 #18 July 25, 2007 I repeat...if I read any analysis of the accident, I could see the educational purpose. But saying "he fucked up" and "his reputation trashed itself does not present many learning opportunities. The bulk of this thread does not deal with self-policing..it is merely a reflection of grown men trash-talking like kids playing football. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OnYourBack 0 #19 July 25, 2007 The analysis is in the first post. A brief synopsis with a link to the full story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tedsauntcindy 0 #20 July 25, 2007 By the way, if Ted was so dangerous in the air, why was he allowed to continue to jump at his DZ? And why did other very experienced jumpers continue to jump with him and mentor him? Ted was encouraged to advance at an aggressive pace in this sport and that also contributed to his death. Perhaps we need some legislation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #21 July 25, 2007 QuoteWhile I salute your desire to avoid impugning the reputation of Ted, I have to ask, at what cost? I'm fairly certain that Kevin's intent was not to "pile on", but was likely driven rather by a desire to reduce the carnage. If the post was intended to be educational, then he could have accomplished the same thing, even using Ted's example, without trashing someone who's been dead for a year. It's unnecessary, and in poor taste. Furthermore, it discourages the reporting of other accidents which could be educationally beneficial, because no one wants to see their friends trashed they way Ted has been. So I could argue that his chosen method of attack here, is actually counter-productive. And in support of that, just look at the messages in this thread. Instead of talking about safety, we're arguing about proper debate etiquette. I guess this "trashing" is what each of us has to look forward to here in this forum, the next time we screw up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #22 July 25, 2007 QuoteBy the way, if Ted was so dangerous in the air, why was he allowed to continue to jump at his DZ? And why did other very experienced jumpers continue to jump with him and mentor him? Ted was encouraged to advance at an aggressive pace in this sport and that also contributed to his death. Perhaps we need some legislation? No-one forces you to read this forum. This is the USA - we have freedom to choose our way. Some do not choose wisely.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #23 July 25, 2007 QuoteBy the way, if Ted was so dangerous in the air, why was he allowed to continue to jump at his DZ? And why did other very experienced jumpers continue to jump with him and mentor him? Ted was encouraged to advance at an aggressive pace in this sport and that also contributed to his death. Perhaps we need some legislation? I hate to say this but I will... Ted made his own decisions... one of which was to pursue high performance canopy piloting. Ted came to us seeking an answer that he wanted...we didnt give it to him...others didnt give it to him... so he found those that gave him the answer he wanted... we all tried to warn him that there was a better way to pursue this dream of canopy flight... he ignored most of these warnings saying that he was different. suggestions he was given included don't downsize aggressively, get canopy coaching from a person like Brian Germain or Scott Miller of flight1 or which ever one was mentioned... and most importantly...take your time brother...rushing this is only a sure way to pound yourself into the ground... But he insisted that he was different than those that had come before him and sought his answers elsewhere... I got really sad when I heard of his injury and then his death...I had hoped to jump with him at some point. So Cindy, I understand your grief..I grieve as well for my losses, but getting mad when people start to discuss this as a reminder to others when in truth he did fuck up and it was his end...I wont agree with the trashing comment, but truthfully he did turn low and he did bounce off his forehead and it did kill him... and us reminding those that are trying to take his same route is honoring Ted and I am sure he would be pleased. Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #24 July 25, 2007 Quote This is the USA - we have freedom to choose our way. Some do not choose wisely. Really? That's funny cause I thought DZ.COM was more global and not specific to a given country. I mean it's founder is not American. I guess I should log off now since I am not in America. Did Ted make a mistake? Hell yeah he did. But what I don't get is why drudge up a "slam Ted" thread? What did he do so different than all the other fatalities (swooping or not)? I don't see the "so and so" one year aniversary thread popping up on a daily basis yet there are enough fatalities out there. I am sure swooping related accidents will continue to occur, but from what I can see the message of canopy piloting is getting out and many (not all) people are hearing it. If you look at the rash of recent fatalities, death is still occurring for many reasons, not just swooping. Assuming I'm even here one year from now, I'm looking forward to listening to people slam some poor old guy for not opening anything or how about slaming a friend who decided to take his own life? Oh and I have a friend of mine who passed away last fall, is someone going to start the slam "my friend" thread on the one year aniversary of his passing? Looking forward to that thread. Sure hope this Kevin guy never fucks ups. Can we reference this thread if he ever does? There are far too many judgmental people out there. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #25 July 25, 2007 Quote...kkeenan simply says Ted "fucked up". Please read my post. I said that Ted was killed in a bad swoop attempt. I provided a link to the original, very long discussion about the accident and its causes. This is where we hope that young men like Ted will learn the lesson that his unfortunate passing can teach. After one year, the lesson is no less valid and important. I was hoping to highlight that fact. Please believe that I regret Ted's passing, and I am very sorry for the loss to you and your family. Kevin Keenan_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
