When to flare?

[d123 1]

That is not my intention. My intention is to learn and by safer. I like big canopies and I like to choose my winds. I see a lot of segregation based on jump numbers to a certain extent this is good.

I see tandem guys doing weird patterns and when I do something like that I hear it's not safe. How come is safe for them? How about for the student?

You and dragon2 told me that i've said was BAD. I've open an invitation to explain what was bad. I've received again it's BAD. This feeling of segregation kinda fill my glass. In the end IT WAS ME. I've ment vertical speed and not horizontal speed.

I'm not saying you are bad or I'm good all I'm saying is that I'm willing to learn and I need some assistance some explanations. When one posts in the Canopy control he get messages why do you post something trivial like that in the SWOOPING FORUM? There is a silent segregation and today it was my worse day.

I apologias if I gave you bad vibes or I've simplified you life to a post that is not my intention and I know how it feels.

I want to learn !!!!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Morrison79 0]

Are you saying you got a 260 to stall like that on landing. Your profile says you fly a 230 loaded at 0.93. How long did you hold the toggles down for?

[d123 1]

The 260 was a rent from that DZ. Actually it is used as student gear. I've bought the 230 2-3 weeks ago. Haven't jump it yet.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Morrison79 0]

I understand that, what I was asking is if you got the 260 to stall like the one in the video?

[d123 1]

Deep breaks for almost 2 sec. I didn't see it stall I've just fell on my back. Local instructors told me about my mistake. One my friends has that on tape.

I've done stall before with back risers as part of my training but I never succeeded with toggles on our navigators.
On PD9 260 it was easy. Next jump I've stalled twice in the air. Contrary to some opinions PD 9 Cells still has a flare.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Scoop 0]

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If you're blatantly bullshitting in the hope of looking knowledgable then thats wrong.

Sorry Scoop, you are misreading AFFI totally. He IS knowledgable. Do a search and read a number of his posts.

Hi Pops. I wasn't suggesting he was. I was making a general comment that if a person should be bullshitting in order to sound knowledgable when they don't really know then that would be wrong and dangerous. I know AFFI is knowledgable. I can't argue with the jump numbers & ratings

[dragon2 2]

Just about every sentence you wrote doesn't make sense. I didn't feel like typing all that out.

You're talking about winds when they do not matter, stall point for different wings when there is a lot more to a stall point than the TYPE of wing (most student wings CANNOT be stalled due to longer steering lines) etc. Just some examples...

This is a classic example of why the first poster should go talk with his own instructors!

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Baksteen 84]

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I've done stall before with back risers as part of my training but I never succeeded with toggles on our navigators.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't student canopies usually have elongated steering lines?

IIRC the purpose of that is to make them harder to stall, but on the downside it means some of the flaring power of the canopy is lost.
However, given the ample size and low WL on your average student canopy, it seems a good trade.

Maybe that's why you have difficulty stalling the Nav but not the PD? It may be worth asking the local rigger about it, if you're really interested.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[phoenixlpr 0]

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IIRC the purpose of that is to make them harder to stall, but on the downside it means some of the flaring power of the canopy is lost.

Hehe. How do you know that? Because someone has told so? You dont have to stall a canopy to land it soft.

[Baksteen 84]

No, sorry, that's not what i meant.

I meant that theelongated steering lines make sure that a canopy becomes hard(er) to stall in the air.
I wasn't talking about landings.

When I first got off the Manta (size oil tanker) I transferred to a Falcon 215 which didn't have elongated steering lines.
After opening I had (stupidly) trained myself to "pump brakes..release..pump brakes..hold..where is everybody/where am I".

With the Manta that was no problem, but when I did this with the Falcon I started "shaking" in my harness after a few seconds.
Hang on..that's not right..
Then I looked up, and saw that the canopy had stalled. Oops.
Lesson learned: Nothing wrong with floating in deep brakes to orient yourself after opening, but with this canopy you have to release the brakes some to keep from stalling.

If I had not held the brakes up high, maybe I might have stalled the canopy way lower, say when turning in for final (which i prefer to do by a flat turn) unexpectedly increasing my vertical speed, and risking serious injury.

---

But tell me something, isn't a flare basically a kind of "stall" executed at the right height/time?
Very crudely speaking, during the first few jumps you slam the brakes from 0% to100% a few feet before landing, and hold them there until you're back on terra firma and your wing has collapsed beside you.
for those who do not read the entire thread, this is not advice on how to flare, this is a question

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[phoenixlpr 0]

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But tell me something, isn't a flare basically a kind of "stall" executed at the right height/time?

No. Flare is minimizing vertical descent and than minimizing horizontal speed before touch down.
You should fly your wing as long as it is possible.

[popsjumper 2]

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...I was not trained about the stall and I've found out the hard way.

So what I hear you saying is that you downsized your canopy and didn't get any instruction on, and implying that you didn't ask, how different it might be from your student canopy? Is that correct?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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But tell me something, isn't a flare basically a kind of "stall" executed at the right height/time?

Please do not think in those terms. A stall implies that the canopy is not flying. To re-emphasize phoenix's statement. You really don't want to stall the canopy on landing. You want to fly it all the way to the ground...ideally, with minimum horizontal and vertical speed, of course.

(swoopers: don't go there for young jumpers, please)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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...Hi Pops. I wasn't suggesting he was. I was making a general comment that if a person should be bullshitting in order to sound knowledgable when they don't really know then that would be wrong and dangerous.

Got me.

I ASS-UMED that you were speaking directly to him since his name was in the subject as being replied to.
All's well in Mudville.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Baksteen 84]

Yes, I didn't put that very well.
It's kinda hard to explain what I mean but don't worry, I usually have very soft landings.

Let me try again.
As I understood, in a flare, like Phoenix says, you minimise descent and horizontal speed just before touching down - initially by going from 0% brakes to 100% brakes.

A stall (please: at high altitude!) can be induced by "flaring" your canopy, and keeping your toggles all the way down. like when flaring normally you minimise horizontal speed and, initially, descent, but as the wing is held in the "misshapen" form you have pulled it in the descent rate picks up again, and can/will become much higher than the normal descent rate.
(stall for too long and you may get a mal)

I haven't explored the stall very much yet, as I am not jumping my current canopy for that long yet, and I am just curious.
But maybe this belongs in a different topic, to avoid confusion.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[phoenixlpr 0]

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A stall (please: at high altitude!) can be induced by "flaring" your canopy, and keeping your toggles all the way down. like when flaring normally you minimise horizontal speed and, initially, descent, but as the wing is held in the "misshapen" form you have pulled it in the descent rate picks up again, and can/will become much higher than the normal descent rate.
(stall for too long and you may get a mal)

You'd better read this:

The Stall By Brian Germain

[Ether 0]

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't student canopies usually have elongated steering lines?

That's certainly been my experience on the student canopies I've jumped. It took several (5+) wraps of the steering lines around the hands before I was able to get any kind of stall at all, and even then the wingloading was so light (~0.5) that I wasn't even able to get the tail to touch, let alone get the "big ball of crap" that I was going for.

PS. Thanks for the discussion; I picked up a few new tidbits from this thread!

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[phoenixlpr 0]

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That's certainly been my experience on the student canopies I've jumped. It took several (5+) wraps of the steering lines around the hands before I was able to get any kind of stall at all, and even then the wingloading was so light (~0.5) that I wasn't even able to get the tail to touch, let alone get the "big ball of crap" that I was going for.

Was it your task to do? Has it been given by your instructor?

If the shit hits the fan, how would you cut your crap away? Thats just like a nomination for Darwin award!

[Ether 0]

Demonstrating a stall (at high altitude) is one of the requirements for a CSPA solo certificate. Of course I didn't keep my hands wrapped in the lines.

edit: added link

edit again to add: There's a difference between "inexperienced" and "idiot". Please could you presume that low-number jumpers are the former rather than the latter? Thank you.

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[CrazyL 0]

Young jumpers please read and heed:
(swoopers: don't go there for young jumpers, please)

[denete 2]

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If the shit hits the fan, how would you cut your crap away?

Hey phoenixlpr, that's a good question.

How would you cut your crap away?

- David

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[DSE 5]

I'll bet he sure as hell wouldn't have 5+ wraps around his hands when he does.

[CrazyL 0]

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That's certainly been my experience on the student canopies I've jumped. It took several (5+) wraps of the steering lines around the hands before I was able to get any kind of stall at all, and even then the wingloading was so light (~0.5) that I wasn't even able to get the tail to touch, let alone get the "big ball of crap" that I was going for.

Was it your task to do? Has it been given by your instructor?

If the shit hits the fan, how would you cut your crap away? Thats just like a nomination for Darwin award!

Have you ever done crw? got into a wrap? I'm a crwdog and a canopy staller and have done 5+ wraps of brakeline to make a narly stall happen. Darwin recipient, maybe. How i've avoided 'going in' for such lewd acts of stupidity is to be done playing stupid above the decision altitude. When i've done the brakeline wrap on my hands, my ep's changed a bit to avoid 'going in'. what has to happen in this situation is to get the line removed from hands prior to decision altitude, obviously. then the ep's are back to normal. Been in 8 wraps and no cutaways because of wrap, wraps were cleared above decision altitude. Time and space and decision altitude is part of why I have'nt recieved the Darwin award yet for taking such risks.

[d123 1]

THis will only steer the shit up but I'm to drunk to care, to old to ask permission and to stupid to stop... I'll rock the tree a bit just to see what falls...

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Just about every sentence you wrote doesn't make sense.
...............................
You're talking about winds when they do not matter
.....................................
This is a classic example of why the first poster should go talk with his own instructors!

Skydiving: Almost 1 year Off the student status. Officially no instructors but I'm looking for shit to learn. Former instructors: mix ideas about the wind changing case.

Paragliding: Not having my license. Instructors: wind changing is BAD! They couldn't quite explain to me why but that's their teaching.

Anyway,
One guy from here wrote something that begin to make sense to me about that wind change thing. It was right here on this forum and that's Billvon in the post called "Flying in Turbulence". Search for it. Read the original post.
This is a PM that I've sent to Billvon about that post in Jun.2007 For all the bullshit happy fingers out there I think that Billvon can confirm if he got an email like this one or not. I have it in my sent messages. Billvon forgive an old retard like me for dragging your name in here but I'm just to stupid.

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I've read your article from Safety&Training and I just wanted to thank you for the clear explanation. It cleared up a lot of things that I've beed instructed to do at a paragliding class and I didn't understood why they are true. My instructors told me just to take them as true.

Now I know why when I enter a thermal in the transition period I need to reduce the break input and/or to use the speed bar(front risers) in order to avoid a collapse. It's because my wing relative wind changed and now I have a higher angle of attack that can stall&collapse my canopy.

Thanks you Bill,
Jean-Arthur Deda.

Anyway, one debatable person could say: You know, that's freaking debatable because it's a thermal! And that's wind rising. Also that's paragliding and that's high aspect ratio wings and they are bad & shit, I mean I hear about collapse on those things all the time and besides things don't really scale!

OK, let's move on.
Gliding:

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When landing, wind shear is also a hazard, particularly when the winds are strong. As the glider descends through the wind gradient on final approach to landing, airspeed decreases while sink rate increases, and there is insufficient time to accelerate prior to ground contact. The pilot must anticipate the wind gradient and use a higher approach speed to compensate for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_shear#Gliding

debatable person: That's wikipedia and anyone can write shit there and it doesn't make it true. Hell, even I can write an entire poem right there on that page right now if I want and beside just a bit higher in that link they say about downdrafts in a wind shear and I'm sure that's what is causing the increase the sink rate.

OK, forget about all those things, kid. Use your common sense.

Walk with me on this one. Let's take a perfect horizontal wind but gusty. It goes from 40 km/h to 0 in less than one second. When the wind drops there's a transition volume, a gradient in wind. The wind gradient. I like that name. If the length of the wind gradient is smaller than you parachute chord I personally believe as an amator bullshiter (as other strong characters imply I am) that you parachute will collapse not only stall but collapse. Why? Take a look over the attachment. Now what's the relative wind speed for that wing in that condition? Not that easy now to say out loud a number!
That's a collapse. That collapse is not created from rotors or turbulence is just from the wind gradient itself.
In my simple and humble existence and at this point in time I believe that if the wind gradient is larger the effect will be less dramatic. Maybe not a collapse maybe just a stall or maybe just a change in relative wind of the wing that could make you sink. Something like Billvon suggested.

Moving on!
Let's take a DZ. An ideal DZ. No obstacles. LZ larger than time. A sweet 80 km radius of objects free landing zone. A yeah with "experienced" instructors that just don't believe that wind change can affect anything more than your horizontal speed relative to earth. Take some students that are teach by the same believes as you. Wind doesn't count. Wind is not even gusty at that point. Nothing bad. One student like me jumping with his shy wing goes and jumps trying to learn and get better. He flares low and fast. The wind drops fast as he flares. The relative wind of the wing is now 20 km/h and not 40km/h. As I flare nothing happens. I don't feel any resistance in the toggles as I usually do. I hit the ground hard as I'm just about half flare. I go in because the instructors from that DZ failed to teach me something and more than that because I usually flare fast and lower there's not going to be any lessons learnt. Any human there will assumed that I've just flared badly.

This is a classic example why people like should go to schools to get educated.

Now, to all the happy hunters out there:TRASH ME, KILL ME but mark my words: there's something going on the wind changes case and this thing is here to stay. Ignorance will not make it go away!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Have you ever done crw? got into a wrap? I'm a crwdog and a canopy staller and have done 5+ wraps of brakeline to make a narly stall happen. Darwin recipient, maybe. How i've avoided 'going in' for such lewd acts of stupidity is to be done playing stupid above the decision altitude.

I have not doen CReW yet, but I hope there is a difference betwwen an experienced CRW dog and a student.... Can you see some?