hand sewing a bar tack for toggle loop

[Couloirman 0]

I have thick dacron lines on a new canopy and need to sew my steering toggle loops in position because I cant pull it through a second time to finish the no sew fingertrap method, it is just too thick. Anyone here hand stitched their toggle loop instead of bar tacking and have any advice? Type of thread, and method of stitching would be greatly appreciated. Not that this is rocket science, but I figured someone here might have some advice for me. There is a whole lot of line fingertrapped up inside all the way up to my brake setting, so I doubt it is going anywhere but I'd rather be safe than sorry and have not hand sewed something like this before so any advice is appreciated.

Are there any good tutorials online on how to hand sew a bar tack? Think a standard backstitch is good enough? Any specific type of thread I need to use?

[PhreeZone 15]

Is there a reason that knotting it at the toggle would not work instead of a bartack? The knot allows you to adjust it down the road as the uppers start to shrink.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jonathan.newman 1]

There is a knot that is often used to tie dacron lines to the reserve toggles without a fingertrap. I will try to describe it, but also point you to the manual for your container, as it is probably in there. It is simple and secure, but leaves the running end of the line sticking out of the grommet.
Pass the free end of the steering line through the grommet from back to front. Bring the free end around the right side of the toggle and again pass it through the grommet from back to front. Now bring it around the left side of the toggle and pass it a third time through the grommet from back to front. Tie a surgeon's knot (double overhand) in the free end and snug it against the grommet to anchor everything in place. Then tie an overhand knot and snug it against the surgeon's knot.


Simple, huh? Read your manual, ask a rigger.

To answer your original question, I have not had good luck hand-tacking a fingertrap. I tried to do this on a replacement loop for a packing power tool. I used a backstitch and it eventually unravelled.

You don't need a bartack sewing machine, but you do need some kind of sewing machine. You can make four passes with a straight stitch machine or a couple passes with a zig-zag machine. You're looking for three-ply bonded nylon thread, T69. Coats and Clark brand sells extra-heavy duty upholstery thread that fits the bill.

Why don't you ask a local rigger to help you out? I can't see it costing more than $5. The riggers I know wouldn't even charge that.

The no-sew fingertrap works well on thin hollow-braids like spectra.

[fcajump 153]

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I have thick dacron lines on a new canopy and need to sew my steering toggle loops in position because I cant pull it through a second time to finish the no sew fingertrap method, it is just too thick.

First - keep in mind that this method was developed when 99% of canopies used that thick dacron lines. I've got them on my canopy and yes, it can be done... its just not easy. Get with an old timey rigger and he'll show you how.

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Anyone here hand stitched their toggle loop instead of bar tacking and have any advice? Type of thread, and method of stitching would be greatly appreciated. Not that this is rocket science, but I figured someone here might have some advice for me. There is a whole lot of line fingertrapped up inside all the way up to my brake setting, so I doubt it is going anywhere but I'd rather be safe than sorry and have not hand sewed something like this before so any advice is appreciated.

Second - once you know that you've got the right place, a bar tack will work and look better. Find a rigger with the right machine and they can do it right.

Next - As to the right place, remember that all that finger trapped line shortens the actual length of the line. You may find that it is shorter than you thought unless you actually measured it for total length. (removing a bar-tack is a real pain in the ass... better to measure it, then use a temporary tack and test jump it before you bar-tack.)

Finally - temporarary tack (or, to answer your original question) I have done it using super-tack. Sinple stitch up and back ~1-2" and tie with a surgen's knot/locking knot. Best advice on this... see your rigger. (note a theme here??)

Advice is free.
Following free advice without full understanding and skill can be costly.
Use it at yor own risk.

JW

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Are there any good tutorials online on how to hand sew a bar tack? Think a standard backstitch is good enough? Any specific type of thread I need to use?

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[jerolim 7]

You can use home - sewing machine for Dacron (it is wide enough).

You can imitate bartack. Use zig-zag stitching on finer trapped part and E thread.
Measure bartack width, step lenth and adjust sewing machine to copy that. It should be 5-7 stitches per inch.

Don't use straight stitching because dacron streaches and it will break the thread.

[councilman24 36]

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I have thick dacron lines on a new canopy and need to sew my steering toggle loops in position because I cant pull it through a second time to finish the no sew fingertrap method, it is just too thick.

First - keep in mind that this method was developed when 99% of canopies used that thick dacron lines. I've got them on my canopy and yes, it can be done... its just not easy. Get with an old timey rigger and he'll show you how.

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Jim, I think he means the Jump Shack, et al, no sew finger trap, not the old figure eight tie on.

This link has the dacron method. It does not use a finger trap. As stated above a finger trap shortens the line and a finger trap to the brake setting eye is not appropriate.

http://www.parachutemanuals.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=40&func=startdown&id=411

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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[fcajump 153]

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I have thick dacron lines on a new canopy and need to sew my steering toggle loops in position because I cant pull it through a second time to finish the no sew fingertrap method, it is just too thick.

First - keep in mind that this method was developed when 99% of canopies used that thick dacron lines. I've got them on my canopy and yes, it can be done... its just not easy. Get with an old timey rigger and he'll show you how.

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Jim, I think he means the Jump Shack, et al, no sew finger trap, not the old figure eight tie on.

This link has the dacron method. It does not use a finger trap. As stated above a finger trap shortens the line and a finger trap to the brake setting eye is not appropriate.

http://www.parachutemanuals.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=40&func=startdown&id=411

Terry - thanks, got interupted while typing my reply and mixed to concepts...

Both the Racer and PD manual show the old Dacron line figure 8 method. which is the old tried/true meton. I've known many that have had problems tucking the final run through the grommet, but it can be done (see your rigger).

I have also used the bar-tacked / hand tacked loop method with Dacron and it works well but NOT with a knot tied in the loop (as is shown in the PD manual for microline where there is no bar-tack).

Again, I would recommend talking with your rigger, but doing a no-knot finger trap loop in the dacron line and then hand tacking does work, but I would again suggest using the hand-tack for temporary use only to get the fine-tune length right, then bar tack for long term use.

What I would NOT suggest is a no-knot/no-tack loop. This has too much chance of causing slippage/uneven flare or even lost toggles (inevitably at the worst of times).

#1 suggestion, get your rigger involved.

JW

PS - one thing I like about this forum... instant peer-review. Say something wrong/confusing/mis-leading and you've got your peers to help you clear it up.

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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[councilman24 36]

A few weeks after I bought my first ram air canopy, a used Strato Cloud, I picked it up out of the trunk of my car and a toggle fell off. This was after many jumps. Toggles had finger trap with no tack. One of my first rigging lessons.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 558]

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... the manual for your container, as it is probably in there. It is simple and secure, but leaves the running end of the line sticking out of the grommet.
Pass the free end of the steering line through the grommet from back to front. Bring the free end around the right side of the toggle and again pass it through the grommet from back to front. Now bring it around the left side of the toggle and pass it a third time through the grommet from back to front. Tie a surgeon's knot (double overhand) in the free end and snug it against the grommet to anchor everything in place. Then tie an overhand knot and snug it against the surgeon's knot. ... Read your manual, ask a rigger. ...

:

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Yes, the old "figure 8" method works best with fat Dacron lines.
IOW Start by passing the line from bottom (Velcro side) to top (non-Velcro side) of the steering toggle. Wrap it around one edge, then back (downwards) through the toggle. Repeat until the grommet hole is full of Dacron (usually 4 passes). Tie a large, ugly knot (hopefully on the non-Velcro side) then tie another knot to lock it.

[angryelf 0]

Sounds to me like you are trying to set up line release toggles on BASE gear which is why you don't want the knot. Jump Shack's technique is tough to do in 900lb dacron and may or may not slide out of the grommet/guide ring. Eric is right to bring up knotting the toggles but you are rigging for a different discipline (I based this off the fact that old school CRW dogs, BASE jumpers are about the only one's using heavy dacron now and you have speedgliding and BASE stuff in your profile).

I fixed several of these in Europe last year for guys who had always done slider down stuff, had line release toggles and hadn't thought through the fact that they had to untie the knot to get the line through the guide ring (therefore negating the whole purpose of WLO's).

Use heavy bartacking thread and a carpet needle (braided black stuff, some rigs use it to hold cable housings in place, etc.) sew at least 4 stitches into your finger trap, about an inch from where it enters the line. You should wind up with an inch long stitch that goes up the line, comes back to fill in the gaps and then both ends should be finished with a surgeons knot. Needle get at walmart, thread get from a rigger or Paragear.

Dacron does stretch. Bartacking will stretch with it (better than a machine bar tack will, I'll wager). If it is BASE gear, you will be replacing your control lines after 50-100 jumps anyway. That being said, INSPECT, INSPECT and INSPECT it for wear. Get it to a Rigger with bar tack machine asap to have it done properly.
Disclaimer: If you have to land on your rears because the tacking fell out and you didn't catch it-that's on you.

-Harry

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[base283 0]

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If it is BASE gear, you will be replacing your control lines after 50-100 jumps anyway.

Where did you get this from? My older BASE rig has 450 jumps on it and the control lines are fine. (I am a rigger). I agree with the rest of your post mostly.
Take care,
space

[ChrisClark 0]

I have attached a page from the PD manual that shows the best way of attaching Dacron line to a toogle. (If however you require a loop for a base gear set-up as someone else has suggested then your best bet would be to ask on a base jumping forum.)

[angryelf 0]

Getting that from personal experience tearing shit up with rough landings on building tops, trees, brush, scree in the Alps, being run over by over exuberant getaway drivers, etc. Maybe my experience isn't typical... ;) (I did cram a lot into a couple of short years of BASE). It is very possible for this to not be the case if you aren't pushing it, I suppose. I went through two sets of control lines on my first canopy, one on my second in 136 Jumps + a couple of skydives using those canopies as mains.

Also replaced two of my buddies control lines that were totally shot after 80 or so jumps, again-those guys were hitting it hard.

I don't want to jump a BASE canopy with 450 jumps on it. Ever. Sounds painful.

Edited to ADD: Just noticed your profile says Germany. In my (very limited) experience in Europe, most jumps are slider up, post jump gear cleanup can be done carefully and the gear doesn't see as much abuse. Slider down in the US has the potential to cause more wear and tear, especially to your deep brake settings which may get blasted from hard openings slider down. In the end you prolly have way more experience than I do in this area with a sub 300 #. Hope I meet you out there when I get a chance to get back into BASE in a few years time. Cheers!

-Harry #1415

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[Hellis 0]

Wouldn't slider up jumps wear the controllines more?
The slider heating up the lines causing wear and shrinkage?

Thats the most common thing in skydiving, slider up skydiving that is

[angryelf 0]

long (3-5 sec) slider down openings can be harder on the whole system as there is no reefing happenng. occasionally this can manifest in the brake settings as they absorb a lot of the energy (and can be torn up). This can be exacerbated by poor toggle stowing. as far as the slider shrinking the outer lines-I don't have enough jumps on a single canopy to notice massive changes at a .80:1 wingloading. (Particularly after stepping of something low and dirty).

-Harry

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[Hellis 0]

I always tought the lines that take most of the force is the lines that takes most of the load.
And depending on the canopy, the load can be different.

Some canopies, such as Lightnings, are very easy on the front risers, and others are almost impossible to pull down.

On my FLiK, it feels like the canopy is more loaded on the front part of the canopy because the front risers are harder to pull than the rear risers.
I know there is a reason for it, generating lift and velocity when you pull on the front risers.
But when you have tried a few canopies you get the "feel" for it.

Also, most people use tailgates for slider off.
Correct me if I'm wrong here but, it makes the nose inflate first letting A and B lines take the punch and then lets the tail inflate.
Right?

[angryelf 0]

Starting to get way off track from what this thread was about, and now we're into canopy/flight/aerodynamic theory. Which is awesome.

My responses at this point are pretty much theory based as I'm not an engineer type with a 100 lb brain. TOTALLY not trying to argue, hoping that maybe the 100 lb brains will chime in and we'll all learn something.

Front Riser vs Rear Riser pressure: The A lines, B lines are definitely carrying a bit more weight. Angle of attack, wing loading, lineset lay out and overall design (I think) are all going to affect front riser pressure. Front riser pressure will almost always be higher due to more of the weight/loaded surface area being pulled on. Rear risers are affecting a smaller area of real estate, that has less confined space resulting in lower felt pressure (think of the wing space from top to bottom).

Damage to the brake settings on BASE gear: My theory is that the A lines, B lines are soaking up a lot of energy during opening but that it is INLINE with the normal air channel/inflation direction of normal cell pressurization. The brake settings are in conflict with that and get loaded rather substantially. The tail is also pulled down at an angle, which is a big stopping surface that totally goes against the direction of travel-forward and down, resulting in more even more force being generated to the lower brake/control lines. (think of the tail "cupping" all of the air speed being generated from the falling load, with no slider to retard it.

(On Skygear: The first things to blow on a very HARD opening are the line attachment points at the tail, or the brake settings. The tail gets ROCKED during a hard/slider down opening. This is FACT. Why I think it happens is above, what the complete/right answer is I'm unsure of).

As far as the tailgate slowing things down/helping the brakes out: I believe it has zero effect in slowing anything down in the tail region inflation sequence. It's purpose is to KEEP THE LINES IN THE MIDDLE, FABRIC OUT for the duration of canopy placement in the container and during linestretch. If it were to impede/ "retard" tail inflation it would have to be miss-rigged horribly and would lead to the jumper "backing" into the object he/she just jumped. (This has happened [supposedly], due to an overly ambitious tailgate combined with light jumper and 0 delay).

Any science-based corrections on the above are welcomed. I'm making this up as I go based off of what makes sense from experience.

-Harry

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[Hellis 0]

Not argueing either, and not a engineer either

But I think I read somewhere that the shape of the canopy determins where most of the lift will be created on the canopy.
And this lift is what you as the jumper feels as load on the lines/risers.
A student canopy generally does not need the front risers as a steering tool, but the rear risers is something that students can/should learn to use.
So loading them more on front is a good thing.

Looking at the canopies that I have used, the Lightning is by far the one with the least front riser pressure.
I can pull them down and keep them down quite easy.
My previous canopy, Spectre, was ok with front risers. Rear risers was also "medium", if I remember correct.
My current canopy, BT Pro is very hard on the fronts, but easy on the rear.

The tailgate is a "nose first inflation" device.
Just below where it says canopy
http://www.dropzone.com/gear/articles/MyFirstBASERig.shtml

If you inflate the tail of the canopy first, the controllines can swing around the (not yet inflated) nose and give you a lineover.
But if the nose opens first and then you release the controllines, they can not swing around the nose.
Look at these openings.
http://vimeo.com/9185694
You can see the nose first takes 'some' shape before the redlines are released.
It's hard to find a video showing a jump without the tailgate

[base283 0]

Hi Couloirman,
E thread or HB-69 as it is also known as is sufficient at its rated tensile strength of 4kg,
the brake setting finger trapped loops take the stress of deployment and not the toggle loop.
A bartack is used to hold the fingertrapped tail of the line in place so friction can hold the load. This means that the bartack doesnt take much load. Using the method I have below will give a sheared tensiled strength of around a hundred kg.
The supertack wax thread is around 40kg and that is way too much overkill, unsightly and can hang up (the surgeons knot) somewhat in the guide ring on SU configs.

There are 2 basic types of used in the parachute industry. One starts and stops at the end of

the stitch line, the other, starts and stops in the middle. Both are started with a straight stitch and then zigzagged back to the start point. We will do the former.

Here is how I do it by hand.
*Thread the needle with a 2.5ft piece of E thread and tie the ends together with an overhand or fig 8 knot. (Note, the thread will be double)
* start 1 and half inches away from where the line enters and sew a backstitch (6-8 spi) 1 inch towards the line entry point (stopping a half inch away).
*Whipstitch (around the back stitch) back to the start point,
*Tie a surgeon's knot and an extra locking knot on top of it.

Tips, Make sure you know what a backstitch, whipstitch and surgeon's knot are.
Dont use needles meant for leather.

Take care,
space