wildblue 4 #26 April 24, 2003 Quote To quote from my original post...."some people will do anything to keep an argument alive." You have just proved my point beautifully. Thanks. I'm not really sure how anything I said was doing "...anything to keep an argument alive" ... ?it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #27 April 24, 2003 Maybe a simple change in categories is in order...? If we could categorize the Incidents under an "Information" category, and the Safety&Training and General Skydiving under a "Discussion" category... Not sure how to make it work, exactly, but trying to offer some ideas. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #28 April 24, 2003 QuoteNo, and sometimes we never will. Which is why I think it's ok to throw out a few "what if's" There are problems with the way things are reported, imo. For example, I know there was one instance where a jumper survived, but the accident was caused by a medical issue rather than a gear problem or whatnot. But the jumper didn't want the medical issue to be known...and he has the right to make sure that doesn't come out. Another incident there was a similar thing, except it was a fatality, rather than a serious injury. There was a medical condition speculated, but the family didn't want that brought out, and so it wasn't. BOTH examples could've taught people something very significant...but because of privacy laws, the fact did not emerge.... I don't think we will ever get all the facts about things. In Holly's case, we may never know exactly what happened....and because of that, if we base learning on facts, we all already know not to turn low...and won't learn a damned thing from this. However, should resoned, introspective speculation be done, there may be things we can learn about it, even if NOT exactly applicable to Holly, that can save our asses. I have learned a few things from Holly's death which I will employ the next time I jump - and it was speculative rather than "factual"... And this is not keeping the argument alive, Sunnyone. It is me simply articulating a position which you may not agree with...rest assured I understand your (and other's) grief, and how hard it must be for you right now...but I think there is a place for cautious and responsible speculation in any incident.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #29 April 24, 2003 Quotebut I think there is a place for cautious and responsible speculation in any incident.... i think your absolutely right..and this forum or General Skydiving or Safety & Training are the places for those discussions...i dont think i'm alone in my annoyance of the discussions (that were) taking place in the actual incident thread. is it to much to ask that we leave that one place for facts, reports, first hand information and questions for clarification purposes? i'd rather not have to filter so much 'white noise' to find what i'm looking for____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #30 April 24, 2003 Quoteand this forum or General Skydiving or Safety & Training are the places for those discussions So do you think that a read only (once cleared by HH or one of the mod's) forum would be appropriate? Quotei dont think i'm alone in my annoyance of the discussions (that were) taking place in the actual incident thread. I get annoyed, too, but I also think that in the midst of some rampant positioning there can be some things learned. I'm thinking of the claim that Holly had epilepsy - since put to rest as speculation by family and friends - and I ran a search on epilepsy here in the forums. I found exactly 1 thread, maybe 6 post long, in something like 450,000 posts...but there is only 1 thread, and I would venture to say that there is more than one person whom this condition affects, not to mention the many who jump with someone who has it. Perhaps there is an immediacy which is present in those Incidents threads which, even if it's "white noise", can teach someone something. The conversation about gloves getting trapped is really good - and although there have been many threads about that, the fact that it is tied directly into a fatality thread brings it far closer home - even if it didn't apply - than reading a discussion in a different forum. Quoteis it to much to ask that we leave that one place for facts, reports, first hand information and questions for clarification purposes? First hand information is not always correct, either. Witnesses are notorious for describing the elephant differently. Other reports do not get released, and sometimes, if they are released, are redacted to facilitate certain privacy laws and concerns for liability. There is a great discussion going on right now over in S/T (I think) which discusses the "sanitization" of reports before they are released to the general public (which we are, to all extents and purposes). If the report is so sanitized, then it becomes worthless in educational arenas, and all ability to learn from it becomes lost. We again go back to "don't turn low"...and we already know that. (does that make sense? I am not sure it's articulated clearly...sorry). For another example, it's nearly 6 months since a student went in, but I still haven't seen any "official" reports. Maybe I just don't know where to look...but it hasn't been brought here. I honestly don't want to see the threads fill up with "oh, they were drunk last night, so they must've been drunk when they had the accident", but if that's an honest possibility, maybe some commentary about how long it takes for alcohol to actually no longer have any effect on decisions and the body is important, too? What we are discussing, I think, is the tact which some people miss, or people who are looking to instigate things. That's not cool...but that's also human nature. I value the incidents forum the way it is - white noise and all - because there is something I can learn from every incident - and lots of that learning has had nothing to do directly with the actual incident, but because of introspective and responsible speculation. If the thread and discussion is bifurcated, I don't see the value in it as much as having it all together... That's my opinion, and I post it knowing it disagrees with lots of people. But I also respect and understand the other positions... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #31 April 24, 2003 If all you want are facts, for US incidents wait a month or two and you'll get them (along with some reasoned speculation) in the incident reports in Parachutist. What's the point of a incident "discussion" forum if discussion is frowned upon there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #32 April 24, 2003 not necessarily read only, just a stronger warning, moderation and more thought on the part of everyone posting/replying in that forum is in order first hand reports (even when conflicting) are still direct knowledge of the event and should be included. i think questions such as "did she have epilepsy/ contacts in etc?" are also perfectly valid questions that relate directly to the incident. however when it spills over into "well i heard" & "what if" it should be taken somewhere else. Its far to easy to add another 30 posts to a thread when an interesting and valuable discussion occurs however, that still adds nothing to the actual incident and IMO should be done elsewhere. if there is a subject you have questions about, by all means use the search functions, create a new post, refresh an old one etc.. if there is interest in your question it will get attention in another forum, without 'hanging on" to a thread in incidents everyone is reading because they want to understand everything they can about what actually happened.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #33 April 25, 2003 QuoteQuotebut I think there is a place for cautious and responsible speculation in any incident.... i think your absolutely right..and this forum or General Skydiving or Safety & Training are the places for those discussions...i dont think i'm alone in my annoyance of the discussions (that were) taking place in the actual incident thread. is it to much to ask that we leave that one place for facts, reports, first hand information and questions for clarification purposes? i'd rather not have to filter so much 'white noise' to find what i'm looking for well said Zen. (bold added by me) we agree we all learn from every possible scenario discussed, but the actual Incident thread is not the place for every possible cause. Let one thread stay true to the actual incident, speculate, wonder, "what if", take the tangent discussions elsewhere. all that white noise is also more work for moderators. please read and respect SkyMonkey's opinion on it HERE. peacehttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,147 #34 April 26, 2003 Monouno speaks as someone who's probably been around a whole lot of "what happened" situations. It sounded real reasonable to me. We have several threads for the "what if" situations and speculation in S&T. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
