5 terror attacks in 2 days

[rgoper 0]

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Bill you never cease to amaze and amuse me with your tilt towards the left and irrational dislike of the President.

it doesn't amaze me, the president is still the "Village Idiot" wait until you see what's fixing to happen to the economy once this nimrod get's done with his tax bill.

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Yep, Now that the war's over, it's time to change the objectives we didn't accomplish to the objectives we _did_ accomplish. How do you pull it off? Easy; just compare these two quotes before and after the Afghanistan war:

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
George Bush AKA: Wyatt Earp 9/13/01

we will never find Osama-Bin-Ladin, his country men are too loyal.

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"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
George Bush, 3/13/02

Wyatt Earp Sr. has never made a lot of sense. remember the infamous line he spoke at one time "Read My Lips, There Will Be No New Taxas" yeah, and i'm the Hulk.


Before the war, we were adamant that Hussein had WMD's, and that we could easily prove it. We backed that up with loads of pictures of buildings with arrows and circles on them.

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yeah, well where are they? in either event, we WILL find WMD, even if we have to put them there ourselves. besides, who gave the idiot the WMD to begin with?

Of factories and facilities that could be used to produce these things. There were also radio intercepts, human intelligence, and other sources as well. All that coincidence? I think not.

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you don't know that, no civilian ever will.

***Now we can't find any, so our objective was really to free the people of Iraq. Only an idiot would claim that Hussein would leave chemical weapons around for us to find!

i expect nothing but maniacal behaviour from this very egotistical, strange man.

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Do you REALLY think we aren't going to find any? Well, perhaps you do. Good on ya. I could hide damn near anything in the area of California and you wouldn't find it for a long while. We'll see how this plays out. You could be correct, though I don't think so.

as i said earlier, we WILL find WMD, no doubt about it, we have to.


And wasn't that a cool video of us knocking down that statue of Hussein?

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WAY!

***Before the war, we said we wanted to prevent dissemination of WMD's to terrorists. During the war, we sorta accidentally let loads of nuclear materials (great for dirty bombs!) walk out of UN-sealed nuclear research facilities we captured.

you have proof of this?

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That still is our objective. That material - how much was there? What concentrations? I do not know myself - being allowed to be looted was a bad bad move.

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So our new objective there is freeing the people of Iraq.

they do not wish to be freed, they wish to rule their own country utilizing Islam.

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Before the war we said that attacking Iraq was neccessary to reduce the threat of terrorism. Now that terrorism is on the rise worldwide, the objective is, once again, freeing the people of Iraq. What, did you really think that killing ten thousand Arabs would make them hate us less?

it's not us they hate, it's our "demonic" lifestyle. they also feel we have a negative impact on world affairs because of our civilation.

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OK dude. Do you REALLY think that the current levels of terrorist attacks is related entirely to Al-Quaida and not a bit to the new PM of the Palestinian Authority? Come ON MAN! There is no cookie-cutter in foreign affairs! You know that! Stop pretending! The Saudi bombings I'll grant you were DEFINITELY al-Quaida.*** you don't know this for sure either

The other stuff......draw what conclusions you like.
C'mon Bill. Read some stuff! We all knew he had the stuff back after the first Gulf Conflict. That's why destruction and proof of destruction was a part of the post Gulf War I UN resolutions. Proof of that destruction was never provided. That - and our intelligence sources - is the reason we kept the WMD issue open until the end - and beyond.

BS. we are the imbiciles that let him get away with it, we are to blame, along with the UN, 12 years is a long time to bring a 3rd world leader into compliance. the whole affair revolves around money, and greed. we gave these idiots the WMD that they supossedly have. he gassed the Kurds with chemicals we provided him with. we're either backing the Russians, French, Germans, Iraqi's, etc...whomever can satisfy our objectives without the US getting it's hands dirty. this war, and i've said this before, will be the first of many to come, much more blood will be spilled because of this war with Iraq, the thing is, they don't care about living, we do.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Gawain 0]

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"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
George Bush, 3/13/02

Wyatt Earp Sr. has never made a lot of sense. remember the infamous line he spoke at one time "Read My Lips, There Will Be No New Taxas" yeah, and i'm the Hulk.

There's only one problem with your criticism...George Bush quoted from 3/13/02 is George W. Bush, our President. The "Wyatt Earp Sr" you refer to (quotes and all) is George H.W. Bush, our President's father.

If you're still stinging from the tax increase of '91 then you should be screaming over the tax increases during Clinton's administration. GWB lowers taxes and you don't believe him?

I'm a skydiver.... really!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TheAnvil 0]

You assert that we ALLOWED looting to take place?

Rubbish. Try again.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 2,473]

>TWO DAYS after 11 September...a first reaction sort of thing.
>Probably similar to the same one I would have had, in all likelihood,
> though I think I would have phrased it a bit differently. You're a
> smart fellow and I'm pretty sure you were thinking the same thing
> at the time.

Yep, I still do.

>A few months later. He's had some time to think stuff out. Is
> catching this guy more important than rendering his network
> impotent?

They are both critical. We didn't do either one; we got distracted by the Iraq war. The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee said that, a year after 9/11, Al Qaeda was on the brink of being wiped out. Then we shifted our attention to Iraq. We saw the results of that shift in Riyadh last week.

And yes, catching a guy who masterminded the killing of 3000 americans is really important. Do you not think so?

>Of factories and facilities that could be used to produce these things.
> There were also radio intercepts, human intelligence, and other
> sources as well. All that coincidence? I think not.

I will believe that as soon as our intelligence people (who are supposedly pretty good) can produce even a barrel of Sarin or equivalent. The rest of the world thinks we made it all up - if we don't find anything they will have their proof. (I don't think we made it up, but that we did a lot of 'seeing what we wanted to see' with the evidence we had available.)

>That still is our objective. That material - how much was there? What
> concentrations?

We don't know. Much of it is gone. I hope to god it doesn't show up in a dirty bomb somewhere.

>A worthy cause. A side effect of the campaign perhaps not stated
>clearly before its commencement, but a worthy cause.

I agree 100%. In fact, it is the ONE good thing to come out of the war. As I stated in the beginning, we're beginning the exercise of changing all our original objectives to that one. I find it too bad that we keep doing that - we are getting a reputation for never telling the truth.

What happens when we have solid proof that N Korea has ten fission bombs loaded on drones? It will be a shame if, at that point, no one believes us because of that reputation. "Great, some more fuzzy pictures. If we get China to allow you to invade, we'll find a bunch of empty drones, just like in Iraq."

>And where do you get that 10,000 #? What percent were military and
> what civilian?

Around 4000 civilian deaths; around 6000 military. Primary source is www.iraqbodycount.net.

It would be nice to get a more official number, but from the Washington Post:

"The Pentagon said yesterday that it has no plans to determine how many Iraqi civilians may have been killed or injured or suffered property damage as a result of U.S. military operations in Iraq."

>C'mon Bill. Read some stuff! We all knew he had the stuff back after
> the first Gulf Conflict. That's why destruction and proof of destruction
> was a part of the post Gulf War I UN resolutions. Proof of that
> destruction was never provided.

I agree with all that. Fortunately we had an expert who could get that proof - Hans Blix. He had a plan to get it. It might even have succeeded, in which case a lot of Iraqis would be alive today, and Saddam would be disarmed.

And if he tried everything he could, and he still failed? (which is likely) We would have still gone to war, but with the support of the entire UN.

[TheAnvil 0]

This leftie hatred of GWB is really something to behold. I don't know if you were meaning to quote me or billvon, so I'll try and address your points individually.

The 'Village Idiot' blah blah about Bush is getting pretty old. Compare and contrast: Harvard MBA vs Divinity School flunkout. Bush is not the brightest star in the sky nor is he the most eloquent president we've ever had. Neither proves he's an idiot. Grow up.

Your allusion to the current and future state of the economy is breathtakingly naive in many respects. Here's a quick review. Bush inherited an economy on the downturn from the Clinton Administration. This downturn was not entirely Clinton's fault, I do concede, though he certainly had a hand in it. President Bush pushed through a tax cut that was to be implemented in phases. Its intent was to turn the economy back around and provide continued growth for the long term. Then 9/11 happened and really sucker punched the economy hard. This was followed by the 6-figure-earning longshoremen strike on the west coast, which also hurt the economy. These two events in conjunction severely mitigated the effect of the Bush tax cut and kept the economy - already in trouble - down.

Now we need another jump start to get the economy going again. As the original Bush tax cut is phased in we are going to have an economic turnaround. The new tax cut will push us along a bit quicker. I do not like it in its current structure, but do see the need. If the dems would propose something feasible, I might actually support them.

You then proceed to slam the President's father over his read-my-lips statement. Good point from the left - next time remember to also state that the democratic congress all but twisted his arm to get him to sign the legislation. At LEAST admit which party sent him the bill. Calling him 'Wyatt Earp' is puerile - but that's what we normally get from the left anyway.

You then seem to doubt my statement about US intelligence sources. Watch the news. Colin Powell played the radio intercepts at the UN. If you think we don't have organic sources in place on the ground you are truly naive beyond belief.

Your next complaint/gripe was concerning our 'demonic lifestyle' as perceived by the Arab world, then you go into a ramble about foreign policy that makes no sense.

Sorry dude. We libertarians watch the news, do our research, and think logically. If the left EVER wants to get our votes, they will have to start making logical arguments based on fact. 'Bush is an idiot', 'war for oil', 'Ashcroft is a racist', 'republicans hate minorities', 'tax cuts for the rich' and 'right wing religious zeolot' and phrases of the same mindset permeate leftists websites, their vernacular, and their speeches. These phrases set off buzzers in the heads of republicans, libertarians, and moderates, letting us know that we're dealing with an uninformed buffoon, an immature crybaby, a misled individual, an ignoramus, or a coward deliberately lying to push their views on others. If the left wants our attention/respect/vote, these phrases have to stop and real discussion/debate START.

Ahhhhh.....back to work.....dammit. I hate work.

quaternions, malt, hops, and Oreo cookies,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 2,473]

>You assert that we ALLOWED looting to take place?
>Rubbish. Try again.

Well, by definition, we did. We opened the place up and left. When we returned they were looting it.

Say you're a cop. You batter down the door of a store to see if there's a crime going on inside. Then you leave, leave the door open all night and come back in the morning - and lo and behold, there are looters carrying stuff out! I think most people would say you allowed that looting to take place by breaking down the door and then just leaving.

I don't think it was intentional, but when we're dealing with nuclear materials in an area that we claim spawns terrorists, being careless doesn't cut it.

[Gawain 0]

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>You assert that we ALLOWED looting to take place?
>Rubbish. Try again.

Well, by definition, we did. We opened the place up and left. When we returned they were looting it.

..........

I don't think it was intentional, but when we're dealing with nuclear materials in an area that we claim spawns terrorists, being careless doesn't cut it.

You're leaving out one small, tiny, insignificant detail: Our forces were in the middle of a combat zone, executing a war.

That creates a lot more fluidity in any situation than we can analyze from our safety here at home. Thus, in my opinion, criticisms of such events are weak, at best.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 2,473]

>You're leaving out one small, tiny, insignificant detail: Our forces
>were in the middle of a combat zone, executing a war.

Right, but wasn't one of the stated purposes of that war to prevent terrorists from getting their hands on WMD materials? It would be too bad if the war we waged to keep us safer allowed terrorists to get their hands on the very materials they will in the future use against us.

[Gawain 0]

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>You're leaving out one small, tiny, insignificant detail: Our forces
>were in the middle of a combat zone, executing a war.

Right, but wasn't one of the stated purposes of that war to prevent terrorists from getting their hands on WMD materials? It would be too bad if the war we waged to keep us safer allowed terrorists to get their hands on the very materials they will in the future use against us.

And in a perfect plan execution, we would have the body of Saddam Hussein and all 55 of the most wanted officials and so-on. Again, your observation-turned-criticism appears short sighted and with limited basis for substantiation.

We can say, "Yeah, but..." to everything. I for one, am thoroughly impressed with what we accomplished with what we had on hand. For the materials that were reported missing, we also fully secured sites. There was one "waste" area that we found almost immediately after Baghdad fell, somewhere south (?).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[JJohnson 0]

My in shape American ass drives an economical Korean mileage monster about the size of a roller skate.

If your country doesn't need the oil why did they back us?

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[rgoper 0]

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There's only one problem with your criticism...George Bush quoted from 3/13/02 is George W. Bush, our President.

i didn't say that, it was a quote from another poster.

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The "Wyatt Earp Sr" you refer to (quotes and all) is George H.W. Bush, our President's father.

i know that. i assigned the two imbiciles those monikers because they fit them so well. they're "cowboy" nentality is getting us in more trouble than we know what to do with. the economy is in ruins, we have an all time record high unemployment level. we have the democrats walking out of the capitol in austin, texas to kill a bill the republicans were going to try and pass, which of course now they can't. the whole world hates us, we do as we wish, when we wish and where we wish, yeah, i'd say Wyatt Earp Jr. is the "Village Idiot" remember, this is the mental giant who couldn't name the six 3rd world country leaders in an interview prior to being elected, i mean stealing the election.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[PhillyKev 0]

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Yep. Now that the war's over, it's time to change the objectives we didn't accomplish to the objectives we _did_ accomplish. How do you pull it off? Easy; just compare these two quotes before and after the Afghanistan war:

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
George Bush 9/13/01

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TWO DAYS after 11 September...a first reaction sort of thing. Probably similar to the same one I would have had, in all likelihood, though I think I would have phrased it a bit differently. You're a smart fellow and I'm pretty sure you were thinking the same thing at the time.

Can the president afford to be reactionary? Do you think he's that careless? No, he was playing up on the reactions of the public to justify his actions. The public supported him, including me, based on that goal. He abandoned that goal and his promise to the American people. Failure is excusable, abandonment or dilution of resources to attain that goal is not.

[billvon 2,473]

>We can say, "Yeah, but..." to everything. I for one, am thoroughly
> impressed with what we accomplished with what we had on hand.

I was glad that there were less than 1/3 of the casualties of the first gulf war, but it will be a long time before a war 'impresses' me. It's like being impressed by an amputation. It may save someone's life but it's not too pleasant for the person going through it - and it's a tragedy if there is any way it could have been avoided.

You may scoff at the "minor mistakes" we made, but one of our past minor mistakes helped create Bin Laden. I think it's worthwhile spending a little effort not to make those kinds of minor mistakes in the future. 9/11 was not so minor.

[Ron 7]

Oh god....

Do you hear what you are spouting?

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the economy is in ruins

Thanks in part to "Define "SEX"" Clinton

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we have an
all time record high unemployment level.

This might have something to do with 9/11...but then Im not very smart.

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we have the democrats walking out of the capitol in austin, texas
to kill a bill the republicans were going to try and pass, which of course now they can't.

sounds like a problem with the Dems to me...Not doing the job.

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the whole world
hates us,

Ya mean just like before? Or would 9/11 not happend if Bill was in office? How about the Cole...they have hated us, and will hate us till one of us is gone.

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i mean stealing the election.

If you are not smart enough to use a punch...I don't want you voting.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TheAnvil 0]

I wouldn't call this 'allowing' the looting to take place. I still hold that what was taken in what concentrations and etc would determine if it is dangerous or not.

Military actions are different than police actions. Though leaving that unguarded wasn't the brightest move in the area, there would have been a ton of other factors for the on scene commander to evaluate. I'm gonna wait and see what pans out here.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

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They are both critical. We didn't do either one; we got distracted by the Iraq war. The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee said that, a year after 9/11, Al Qaeda was on the brink of being wiped out. Then we shifted our attention to Iraq. We saw the results of that shift in Riyadh last week.

Iraq was in the mop up phases when this occurred in a foreign country known to be friendly to ole bin Loser.

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And yes, catching a guy who masterminded the killing of 3000 americans is really important. Do you not think so?

Sure I do! But still secondary to rendering his organization impotent. I think these two Bush quotes you used out of context to smear the man bring forth an interesting point. In politics, due to the mass communications available today that were not available in the time of Lincoln, for example, it becomes extremely difficult to let your opinion evolve, to change your mind, change your priorities, or allow yourself to be persuaded to another viewpoint. I don't think that's a good thing, but it's sort of an aside to the current discussion.

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I will believe that as soon as our intelligence people (who are supposedly pretty good) can produce even a barrel of Sarin or equivalent. The rest of the world thinks we made it all up - if we don't find anything they will have their proof. (I don't think we made it up, but that we did a lot of 'seeing what we wanted to see' with the evidence we had available.)

They also think Israel and the CIA planned 9/11 in some areas. I too would like to see us find some chemicals. I think we will, and the sooner the better.
Hopefully we won't find it via an attack, dirty bomb or otherwise.

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What happens when we have solid proof that N Korea has ten fission bombs loaded on drones? It will be a shame if, at that point, no one believes us because of that reputation. "Great, some more fuzzy pictures. If we get China to allow you to invade, we'll find a bunch of empty drones, just like in Iraq."

North Korea is a totally different foreign policy paradigm. Different history, different culture, different geo-political situaion, different geographical position.....etc. Not at all applicable.

Hans Blix could search there for years and not find anything. The difference between his inspections prior the coalition invasion and right now is that now there aren't efforts underway to move/hide this stuff and deceive the searches by a coordinated intelligence apparatus.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Economy in ruins? Yep! See my previous post for a brief history of the US economy. Take into account everything, and explain to us why Bush is totally responsible. You can't. Period. Billvon's a pretty smart dude and I'll bet he can't either. High unemployment typically accompanies a down economy, by the way.

The democrats walking out of the capitol in TX was just flat plain funny. They're in the minority for the first time since Reconstruction and they just don't wanna play? Even when they were in the majority they couldn't get the redistricting finished so a judge had to do it for them. Now that the TX Republicans want to finish the job that the democratic controlled legislature should have done, they run with their tails between their legs. Disgusting.

The whole world hates us, we do as we wish, when we wish and where we wish. Wrong on all counts. You should travel more.

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yeah, i'd say Wyatt Earp Jr. is the "Village Idiot" remember, this is the mental giant who couldn't name the six 3rd world country leaders in an interview

And you're an engineer. You think you could derive Maxwell's equations when put on the spot with no warning? I doubt it. Does that make you a crappy engineer? I think not.

I remember that interview and thought it quite funny. I don't think many in the US could have answered that question correctly, which is probably why it didn't really hurt Bush all that much.

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prior to being elected, i mean stealing the election.

OK dude, you wanna go that route? Fine, let's dance. This particular lie by the left really irks me. Bush won the first count. Bush won the recount. He won the re-recount. Bush won the non-binding independent[sic] recount conducted after the Florida Kangaroo court let Kathy Harris certify the election (we can talk about this judicial activism atrocity on another thread if you like). Tell me - exactly what vote count in Florida did Bush lose? (Overall; don't embarrass yourself by pointing out that certain precincts voted for Gore; we all know that I'm referring to the overall state).

This 'steal the election' and 'disenfranchisement of voters' horse-caca the left puts out is a testament to their lack of ideas. The tell these lies because they have to do so in order to motivate their base.

Doesn't that embarass you lefties out there? Don't you realize that when you use such tactics - Goebbels/Hitler would approve by the way - that you harm America? Or do you realize and just not care because you're blinded by your own quest for power?

Try again groper. The position in your previous posts is untenable by any stanard.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[bodypilot90 0]

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it was at the time

that's just bullshit. As long as Arafat is invoved in any way and as long as Iran and and cohorts are passing money to him and his subgroups, there never will be peace in that area. I'm sure you and Bill will find someway to blame the US. But Arafat is to the Jews as any one in the KKK is to blacks.

[TheAnvil 0]

Abandoned that goal my ass. You don't have a single shred of evidence to support that statement. We're still looking for bin Loser and will continue to do so.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[bodypilot90 0]

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he the most eloquent president we've ever had. Neither proves he's an idiot. Grow up.

what pisses them off the most is he is a man of values, and says what he means and means what he says.

[bodypilot90 0]

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You may scoff at the "minor mistakes" we made, but one of our past minor mistakes helped create Bin Laden. I think it's worthwhile spending a little effort not to make those kinds of minor mistakes in the future. 9/11 was not so minor.

and if Slick willie would have done his JOB instead of a diffrent kind of JOB old Bin would have been dead or in jail.

[bodypilot90 0]

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we will never find Osama-Bin-Ladin, his country men are too loyal.

Never say never! He's more than likely in France

[Gawain 0]

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You may scoff at the "minor mistakes" we made, but one of our past minor mistakes helped create Bin Laden. I think it's worthwhile spending a little effort not to make those kinds of minor mistakes in the future. 9/11 was not so minor.

I did not intend to communicate a "scoff" at the efforts. I did intend to communicate that our criticisms of what our men and women did in the field are relatively uneducated.

I will not dispute the significance of these issues, but I will dispute those that say we aren't making progress to one degree or another. To expect perfection in this war is to expect perfect 4-way exits from the Otter 100% of the time. It's not going to happen.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[skreamer 1]

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My in shape American ass drives an economical Korean mileage monster about the size of a roller skate.

Guess that makes you the average American then.

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If your country doesn't need the oil why did they back us?

I don't recall saying Britain didn't need/want the oil, where did I give you that impression?

Personally I like America, I've been there five times and I think it is great. My issues are with your current administration. If I go out and kill a crack dealer for being a crack dealer, a lot of people might support and praise me, but I am still a vigilante and answerable to the law (no matter how evil that crack dealer was). 911 gave the Bush administration carte blanche (in their eyes) to invade a country that had nothing to do with 911.

I don't recall too many people clamouring for a war with Iraq prior to 911. Oh well, I suppose previously there was the 'war on drugs', the current administration has the 'war on terror' as their main selling point.

G'nite

Will

[SkyDekker 1,153]

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Economy in ruins? Yep! See my previous post for a brief history of the US economy. Take into account everything, and explain to us why Bush is totally responsible. You can't. Period.

And in your "explanantion" of the current economic condition, Bush has no fault whatsoever, it is all some one else's fault. And a lot of the economic woe's is blamed on a strike in your "story". Prove it! Prove that without that strike the US economy would have been in a better situation.