Essay on "The pussification of the western male"

[bill2 0]

Thanks for bringing the essay to the masses here, Bill.
__________________

You're welcome. I figured it would provoke a lot of heated discussion. I don't agree with everything but some of it makes sense, as I mentioned in an earlier post.

[McDuck 0]

Boy, someone certainly had some terribly emasculating experience in the past, and is no longer suppressing the "mommy-never-loved-me" anger. It's truly sad that people like THAT have any following at all.

Kevin - Sonic Beef #5 - OrFun #28
"I never take myself too seriously, 'cuz everybody know fat birds don't fly." - FLC
Online communities: proof that people never mature much past high school.

[Sebazz1 2]

After reading this whole thread I have a headache... I'm going to go take a hot bubble bath

[billvon 2,426]

>Namely, that men over the years have been forced to become
> more 'civilized'....whether that meant getting manicures, or wearing
> copious amounts of hair gel, or having the perfect shoes.

Hasn't happened to me. Never felt any pressure to do any of those things.

>Look at most movies and TV shows, and you will see regular guys
> (guys who go out and drink, watch football, would never be caught
> dead paying more than $8 for a haircut) getting ridiculed.

How do you figure? Harrison Ford, Mel Gibson, Lawrence Fishburne, Arnold Schwarzenegger - all of them solidly in the action hero role, all of them portrayed as preferring either beer-n-nuts or asceticism over high fashion and pretentious social events.

If anything I'd say it's the opposite. Look at the Matrix, which has become something of a cultural event. The main characters are grubby and sloppy in the "real world"; it's only when they are in the evil matrix that they dress like the bad guys (i.e. the agents who dress impeccably.)

>Men like this are seen as uncouth, uncivilized, backwards....

Where do you see evidence of that?

> And then this little thing called the metrosexual comes out. Now all
> of a sudden, you have women watching Queer Eye for the Straight
> Guy...and trying to force their boyfriends and husbands into wearing
> f’ing Bruno Magli shoes. Let us be men.

People are forcing you to wear Bruno Magli shoes? I don't even know who that is.

>While there is nothing wrong with a woman who is healthy and
> physically fit, who works out and builds muscle mass, there is
> something aesthetically unappealing when taken to the extreme.

To you, maybe. I think Molly's pretty good looking myself.

>There was a time when being considered a 'Man' could make one
> swell with pride.

??? You mean swell with pride that you have a penis? I don't take any pride in that. It's just how I was born. I like having one and all, but I had nothing to do with getting one. Nor do I take pride in being bigger and stronger or scarier than anyone else. Not my thing.

On the other hand, I do take pride in being one of the best big-way skydivers in the world, and I'm proud of the people I've taught to skydive, and of the systems I've designed that are even now flying in commercial aircraft and helping defend US servicemen all over the world. Those are some of the things that are important to me. And I didn't get that pride from a TV show or a pair of shoes; I got it from a lot of hard work.

>When it comes right down to it…I want to be left alone to be a man.

Who's not leaving you alone? There will always be people that are different than you. They may be socialites, or homosexuals, or grubby ditchdiggers, or chaste church-going Ned Flanders types. In the end, the only person that can put any pressure on you to become any one of those types of people is you.

Don't want to wear Bruno Dimaggio shoes? Don't. Don't want to dress up to go to dinner? Don't. But have enough self-confidence that when people say "wearing running shoes to dinner, eh?" you can say "Yep!" and not care what they think about what you wear.

Or you can care, and wear Bruno's shoes. But that's your decision, not theirs. I think one of the defining characteristics of being "a Man" in the sense you meant earlier is doing your own thing and just not caring what anyone else thinks about what you do or how you do it. Make sure you are true to yourself, and none of that other stuff will matter.

>The only time I want to say the word Jasmine (with a straight face) is
> if I’m apologizing to my girlfriend about something I did with a
> stripper.

I say it whenever I talk to Taz about his daughter. But to each their own.

[usedtajump 1]

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After reading this whole thread I have a headache... I'm going to go take a hot bubble bath

Not me bro, I'm goin' out and get a quart of beer and a bag of pork skins.

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[Katzeye 0]

Hussah! I'm with ya brother!

Women want men to be more like women. It irks the f**K out of me. Men are MEN, they should be respected as MEN. Not some version of a female.

Is a chicken omelette redundant?

[Michele 1]

Hi, Dave...

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In Reply To
***I'd like to read it, but my attention span is WAY too short for that.
Here's the jist of it...

"Men used to be real men. Then women came along and stopped letting us conk them over the head and drag them around by their hair. Now men are all pussywhipped. I miss the real men."

That help?

And yes, Remster, there is a whole lot of shit floating around in there. Different kinds of feces, all mixed together. What a shit-pile.

Ciels-
Michele

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How about we read the article and understand the underlying message, before refering to it as a shit pile. Critical reading? Anyone?

How do you know I didn't read it critically? Entirely? Looking for any redeeming value? How do you know, just because my opinion differs from you, that I did not read it critically and with intention? Or are you just using my post as a platform to respond to?

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BUT...it has an element of truth. Namely, that men over the years have been forced to become more 'civilized'....whether that meant getting manicures, or wearing copious amounts of hair gel, or having the perfect shoes. Look at most movies and TV shows, and you will see regular guys (guys who go out and drink, watch football, would never be caught dead paying more than $8 for a haircut) getting ridiculed. Men like this are seen as uncouth, uncivilized, backwards.... And then this little thing called the metrosexual comes out. Now all of a sudden, you have women watching Queer Eye for the Straight Guy...and trying to force their boyfriends and husbands into wearing f’ing Bruno Magli shoes. Let us be men. That is why there are shows like The Man Show and magazines like Maxim. It’s for men who want to remain men against the growing tide of estrogen.

Wow. Growing tide of estrogen? I don't see men being overwhelmed by estrogen.

I have never watched Queer Eye, The Man Show, nor have I read Maxim. For the record, I stopped reading "glamour mags" when I was a teen, and decided then it was a losing fight against some idealization of women. This was about the same time I understood that photos therein were retouched, and that if I were to try to ever be small enough to wear a size 2, I would need a bone-ectomy. In other words, things like that are a) not real, b) if they are touted as "reality tv", I have yet to meet anyone in the world I move through who really are like that. Furthermore, if you do not understand, and/or cannot comprehend that there is a huge amount of fantasy and marketing dollars combined to bring people to a made up, bullshit standard, then a simple post here will not bring it to you.

And yes, I grew up in an atmosphere where looks were all important - both parents being actors, I had "pretty people" all around me. In the subsummation of her physical needs to conform to a 5th Avenue imaginary idealization, I lost a cousin to anorexia (yes, there were other reasons, but the point remains...). I have seen more plastic surgery, and it's successes and failures, on both men and women, in that environment...and realized early that real life, and real people, don't always look like Princess Grace or Tyrone Power. Additionally, the actors are saying lines in a script...and not speaking from their hearts.

As to the Show Everyone Loves Raymond, despite my father's participation on it, I have never watched it. I do not watch sit-coms - and last week, for the first time ever, watched Survivor - which is also intensely manipulated.

Therefore, anyone who compares anything but tv to tv is, in my opinion, making a poor comparison, and needs to realize that most people drink beer, sit on the sofa, and scratch their pubes. And I like it like that. That is not uncouth - that is not uncivilized. That is human, and how it is.

And actually, real men don't pay to get their hair cut...they just take a shaver/razor, and take it all off . I don't pay but twice a year for a haircut - I cut my own....I guess that makes me less of a real woman.

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I liken the metrosexual to the female body builder. While there is nothing wrong with a woman who is healthy and physically fit, who works out and builds muscle mass, there is something aesthetically unappealing when taken to the extreme. She looks masculine. To me, all of the lifestyle characteristics of the metrosexual man make him look feminine.

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. I think, however, that gender stereotyping is pretty dumb. I like muscles on a man, but I don't discount his contributions because he may have small biceps. Muscles on a woman I am indifferent about - I could care less. Me? I'm pretty average, chubby, approaching middle age. I have far more important things to do than think about what kind of hair gel I should get. I've never seen a pair of Bruno Magli's, with the exception of all those OJ photos - it's Payless for me, or tennies. And if someone has issues with that, like Bill said, fine and dandy. They are your issues, and don't make them mine...'cause I don't care.

And frankly, I don't have time for a manicure - and neither do some of the kewlist men I know....we are all too busy living our lives, being ourselves, to sit for however long it takes to get one.

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Pee sitting down if you want to. Cool with me. It’s the friggin' negative image of a man as some derelict idiot with condiment stained ties that bothers me.

I don't know any man that pees sitting down. All the men I've been with pee standing up - I know this not because I've taken a survey, but because I have to put the seat down when they're done!

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There was a time when being considered a 'Man' could make one swell with pride. Now, I'm afraid that being considered a 'Man' is becoming more and more synonymous with "dumb/unclean/uncivilized/boorish/abusive."

There was a time when being considered a woman meant you had no rights...were chattel, and couldn't defend yourself if your husband chose to rape or beat you. I like that it's changed. If you cannot be proud of being you, then you have issues, and gender doesn't have much to do with it.

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When it comes right down to it…I want to be left alone to be a man.

I honestly can't see where any of this is stopping you from being what you consider to be a man. I probably won't bother to cook you dinner, but then again, you probably wouldn't want me to. So if you have problems with the entertainment drama and culture-bleed, then don't participate. It's honestly that simple.

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The only time I want to say the word Jasmine (with a straight face) is if I’m apologizing to my girlfriend about something I did with a stripper.

And if I was your girlfriend, I wouldn't care what you did with a stripper - it would be over, done with, and you'd be out the door. OTOH, you probably wouldn't ever be my boyfriend, because I want a partner, not a boss. I get that at work, and there, at least, they pay me.

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So let me make this last point clear. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE MAJORITY OF THE AFOREMENTIONED ARTICLE, BUT IT HAS BECOME SO POPULAR TO MALE-BASH THAT I HAD TO SAY SOMETHING.

Show me where any of us male bashed. I simply stated my opinion. When I read something like that, it turns my stomach - similar to eating a pile of shit. I love men, I respect those that deserve it, and I don't care much about those who don't. Men don't have to be dominant to be valuable...they just need to be valuable. I never said men suck - (
I like men. I like being taken care of. None of that precludes me being able to take care of myself. I love being hugged by a strong man...but I also love being hugged by a weak man. Hell, I love being hugged.

A true, real man does not need to put others down for him to feel good about himself. Nor, honestly, does a real woman. I like being a woman...and I think men like the one who wrote this have some seriously deepseated issues about themselves and their ability to be in the world.

Just my opinion, and that's all there is to it.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Amazon 7]

Hey can someone forward this to OBL and the RNC

[SDiver218 0]

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>Look at most movies and TV shows, and you will see regular guys
> (guys who go out and drink, watch football, would never be caught
> dead paying more than $8 for a haircut) getting ridiculed.

How do you figure? Harrison Ford, Mel Gibson, Lawrence Fishburne, Arnold Schwarzenegger - all of them solidly in the action hero role, all of them portrayed as preferring either beer-n-nuts or asceticism over high fashion and pretentious social events.

If anything I'd say it's the opposite. Look at the Matrix, which has become something of a cultural event. The main characters are grubby and sloppy in the "real world"; it's only when they are in the evil matrix that they dress like the bad guys (i.e. the agents who dress impeccably.)

Schwarzenegger? He’s about as much of a regular guy as Freddy Mercury was straight. He is certainly not who I would want representing me as a man. He’s a caricature. Now don’t get me wrong, there are movies and TV shows who portray men in a good light (read my post), but it’s drowned out by all the other man bashing shows. Go watch network TV, and count how many programs that show men in a good (and realistic) light. You could probably count them on one hand. Hmmm…..

The Matrix? That comparison is so off base that I wish I hadn’t even acknowledged it.

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>Men like this are seen as uncouth, uncivilized, backwards....

Where do you see evidence of that?

Have you been paying attention to popular media lately?

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> And then this little thing called the metrosexual comes out. Now all
> of a sudden, you have women watching Queer Eye for the Straight
> Guy...and trying to force their boyfriends and husbands into wearing
> f’ing Bruno Magli shoes. Let us be men.

People are forcing you to wear Bruno Magli shoes? I don't even know who that is.

Be thankful you don’t.

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>While there is nothing wrong with a woman who is healthy and
> physically fit, who works out and builds muscle mass, there is
> something aesthetically unappealing when taken to the extreme.

To you, maybe. I think Molly's pretty good looking myself.

I don’t know who this Molly is, but allow me to retort…

http://www.muscleandfitness.com/photogallery/p/5414_detail-1.html

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>There was a time when being considered a 'Man' could make one
> swell with pride.

??? You mean swell with pride that you have a penis? I don't take any pride in that. It's just how I was born. I like having one and all, but I had nothing to do with getting one. Nor do I take pride in being bigger and stronger or scarier than anyone else. Not my thing.

On the other hand, I do take pride in being one of the best big-way skydivers in the world, and I'm proud of the people I've taught to skydive, and of the systems I've designed that are even now flying in commercial aircraft and helping defend US servicemen all over the world. Those are some of the things that are important to me. And I didn't get that pride from a TV show or a pair of shoes; I got it from a lot of hard work.

Sigh… Do you actually think that I meant the mere fact that I have a penis is a source of pride for me? Methinks you’re fishing for something to argue about.

Being a man (in the traditional sense) is saying what you mean and meaning what you say. It’s pride, honor, and nobility. Its being a good father. Its “guts”….”piss and vinegar”. It’s not backing down from what you believe in. It’s being more like our grandfathers and less like the guy who teaches the Pilates class at the local gym. Do some research… from Aristotleon courage to Sir Thomas Malory on love, honor, and chastity. You could read Shakespeare on leadership or John Cheever on adolescence. What about Jane Austen on pride to Theodore Roosevelt on family life? You will find that being a man has little to do with having a penis.

Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin

Ah that's just drunk talk, sweet beautiful drunk talk. - Barney Gumbal

[Guest]

I think what's happening here is that there is a lot of association with pop culture - hence all the references to "Queer Eye", etc.

I'm sorry, but a silly television program doesn't define me as an individual, or as a member of the male sex.

And as Billvon pointed out, there are plenty of pop-culture icons that diefy silly machismo ideals - to the point of ridiculousness; e.g., anybody who has sat through a Steven Seagal picture without laughing out loud at the absurdity on the screen has been living a sheltered life.

Mass communication has made it possible for little nippy, barky, pesky dogs to have a voice far out of proportion to their true numbers and influence - it's called propaganda, folks.

We would all do our society and ourselves great benefit by being CRITICAL THINKERS.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Michele 1]

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I think what's happening here is that there is a lot of association with pop culture - hence all the references to "Queer Eye", etc.

I agree. I don't watch a lot of that kind of thing - my tastes run more towards news, Discover channel, Court TV, etc. Queer Eye sounds boring, frankly. I'd rathe just curl up with a good book or take a hot bubble bath (Sebazz? You listening?) or something.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Guest]

Hear, hear. Quit defining yourself by pop culture sewage.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 2,426]

>Schwarzenegger? He’s about as much of a regular guy as Freddy
> Mercury was straight. He is certainly not who I would want
> representing me as a man. He’s a caricature.

I agree, but so is Freddy Mercury, and Mel Gibson, and Britney Spears, and so is pretty much every actor or performer out there. Why do you consider those people irrelevant carciatures but consider the "metrosexuals" people you are forced to emulate? It's TV - they're all fake. You don't have to be like any of them.

>Have you been paying attention to popular media lately?

Like what? Net news sites? Yes. TV? No. Don't have much use for it.

>I don’t know who this Molly is, but allow me to retort…

Yeah, Molly looked something like that when she was in competitions and was posing for cameras, which was sorta creepy. When she's not posing she just looks like a very fit person. She's stronger than most men; I don't really care about that. She's still gorgeous.

>Being a man (in the traditional sense) is saying what you mean and
> meaning what you say. It’s pride, honor, and nobility. Its being a
> good father. Its “guts”….”piss and vinegar”. It’s not backing down
> from what you believe in.

I agree, except for the piss and vinegar part, which is another way of saying that being a man is being an asshole. Not that some guys aren't (I am) but it's not an integral part of being a man.

>It’s being more like our grandfathers and
> less like the guy who teaches the Pilates class at the local gym.

That's your problem, right there. Do you think things were really different back then? Do you think your grandfather fretted over whether he should put gel in his hair, or what kind of shoes he should wear? Probably not. Was there societal pressure to use brylcreem, or wear expensive shoes? Of course - there has ALWAYS been societal pressure to conform to whatever the current image of success is. Nothing is different today, except access to media is easier.

What's the difference between you and your grandfather? You. If you want to be like him, for god's sake, be like him and stop fretting that there's pressure to be like the people on TV!

>Do some research… from Aristotleon courage to Sir Thomas Malory
> on love, honor, and chastity. You could read Shakespeare on
> leadership or John Cheever on adolescence.

Do you think those people spent their time worrying about what their girlfriends/wives would say if they didn't look good? Or did they just do their own thing, and make their mark the way they chose? I would put it to you that the reason they are famous today are because they were great men of their own making; it was not that they lived in a time that "made a Man swell with pride." Their greatness came from within, not from some outside source.

>You will find that being a man has little to do with having a penis.

It also has little to do with whining about what's on TV. It has far more to do with what you make of yourself. What the rest of the world tells you to do simply does not matter. At least it shouldn't.

And none of this has to do with being a man exclusively. It has to do with being a complete and independent person in any place or time. We live in a country where most of the artificial barriers to success, barriers based on sex, race, physical ability and geography, have been broken down. If you want to succeed here, you can. If you're really worried about appearing different than the images on TV, you won't. And now, as always, that decision is completely up to you.

[Guest]

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Why do you consider those people irrelevant carciatures but consider the "metrosexuals" people you are forced to emulate? It's TV - they're all fake. You don't have to be like any of them.

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TV? No. Don't have much use for it.

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I agree, except for the piss and vinegar part, which is another way of saying that being a man is being an asshole. Not that some guys aren't (I am) but it's not an integral part of being a man.

I remember seeing the author of "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche" on a talk show, when he was asked for a pop-culture identification of a "real man" - he replied "Spencer Tracy".

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Nothing is different today, except access to media is easier.

F*in' A!

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stop fretting that there's pressure to be like the people on TV!

HEAR, HEAR, HEAR!

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Their greatness came from within, not from some outside source.

Well put!

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It also has little to do with whining about what's on TV. It has far more to do with what you make of yourself.

And being a Critical Thinker!!!

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Amazon 7]

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It also has little to do with whining about what's on TV. It has far more to do with what you make of yourself.

I NEVER really got the memo of WHY we should really look up to actors.... I mean they make a living PRETENDING to be other people.. so which personality will show up at a party.. or a club... or thier own life. Politicians.. same thing.. WHICH WAY SHOULD I LEAN on an issue... TAKE A POLL... and this goes for ALL Of them.

That takes most of the people who the people of this country idolize as "celebrities"...

I myself prefer men who are comfortable with themselves... intelligent... and are real... do what they say....when they said they are going to do it and MOST importantly are not threatened by a woman being able to do almost anything she wants to...If he can handle that.. he has GOT IT GOIN ON

[Guest]

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I NEVER really got the memo of WHY we should really look up to actors.... I mean they make a living PRETENDING to be other people.. so which personality will show up at a party.. or a club... or thier own life. Politicians.. same thing.. WHICH WAY SHOULD I LEAN on an issue... TAKE A POLL... and this goes for ALL Of them.

That takes most of the people who the people of this country idolize as "celebrities"...

Hallelujah!

Buy a clue here, folks - the people you see on your television or in the cinema are PROFESSIONAL BULLSHIT ARTISTS!!! It's their job to make you think that they are somebody they are not. As Jeanne says - they make their living by being CAREER PHONIES! IT'S MAKE-BELIEVE!!! Those people have bowel movements too...it just happens that they're in the entertainment business...

I'll never forget a conversation I was a part of at at Star Trek convention about ten years ago. I was shooting the shit with Majel Barrett (Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry's widow), when a fanboy came up to us and started asking her a question about some kind of esoteric nit-picking on Star Trek. She was trying to be nice and patient with him, but I stepped in and said - "Look, man, it's all BS!" Majel smailed at me and said, "Well, yeah, but it's FUN BS!", and we laughed.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Nightingale 0]

Its well documented that Spencer Tracy hit his longtime girlfriend, Katharine Hepburn on a regular basis. Not my definition of a real man.

[Guest]

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Its well documented that Spencer Tracy hit his longtime girlfriend, Katharine Hepburn on a regular basis. Not my definition of a real man.

Please note that the quote addressed Tracy's screen persona, not what he may have been in "real life".

Nonetheless, your remarks are apropos to the undercurrent of the thread; id est, that we musn't diefy people in the media, nor excoriate them. They are part and parcel of MAKE-BELIEVE, and we shouldn't allow the entertainment business to dictate who we are or what we believe.

This is why I got so POd when the Iraq War debate was heating up, and all those entertainers were spouting off - to me, it's "STFU! Just dance and collect your coins, you trained monkey!!! WHO ELECTED YOU?!?!?!"

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Deuce 1]

Hey Michele, I just skipped to the last post you made cause I don't care about much else. So, if I kick this guys ass, will that impress you?

I could just ignore him, like I did, but I do enjoy the occasional cave-mannish foray into physical violence.

And Amazon, not every Republican is chomping at the bit of opportunity to persecute and vilifile. Well, OK, every one of them but me.

• Quote

[Amazon 7]

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not every Republican is chomping at the bit of opportunity to persecute and vilifile

Not to worry Duece dear.... I know the difference between moderate republicans and the Ultra Right Hand.... altho I dont see them posting too much... its usually the rabid variety. Especially like the ones who get threatened and confused by a woman who would drive a pickup... own a fast cabin cruiser... and dare I say it...jump out of airplanes...I guess they would like to keep those things to themselves... as a SHOW of thier machoness..... then some of us females come along and do it.. just ruins it all for them.

[Guest]

Oh you get me ready in your 56 chevy
Why don't we go sit down in the shade
Take shelter on my front porch
The dandy lion sun scorching,
Like a glass of cold lemonade
I will do laundry if you pay all the bills

CHORUS:

Where is my John Wayne
Where is my prairie song
Where is my happy ending
Where have all the cowboys gone

Why don't you stay the evening
Kick back and watch the TV
And I'll fix a little something to eat
Oh I know your back hurts from working on the tractor
How do you take your coffee my sweet
I will raise the children if you pay all the bills

Chorus

I am wearing my new dress tonight
But you don't, but you don't even notice me
Say our goodbyes
Say our goodbyes
Say our goodbyes

We finally sell the chevy
When we had another baby
And you took the job in tennessee
You made friends at the farm
And you joined them at the bar
Almost every single day of the week

Chorus

I will wash the dishes while you go have a beer
Where is my Marlboro man
Where is his shiny gun
Where is my lonely ranger
Where have all the cowboys gone
Yippee aw, yippee yea...

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

We were talking
about the space between us all
And the people
who hide themselves behind a wall
of illusion.

Never glimpse the truth
then it's far too late
when they pass away.

We were talking
about the love we all could share
when we find it
To try our best to hold it there.

With our love
With our love
we could save the world
if they only knew.

Try to realise it's all within yourself
No one else can make you change.

And to see you're really only very small,
And life flows within you and without you.

We were talking
about the love that's gone so cold
and the people
Who gain the world and lose their soul.

They don't know
they can't see
are you one of them?

When you've seen beyond yourself
then you may find peace of mind is waiting there.
And the time will come when you see
We're all one, and life flows on within you and without you.

--George Harrison

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Michele 1]

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Hey Michele, I just skipped to the last post you made cause I don't care about much else. So, if I kick this guys ass, will that impress you?

I could just ignore him, like I did, but I do enjoy the occasional cave-mannish foray into physical violence.

ROFL, Deuce. Nah, don't bother to kick his ass. 'Twon't impress me...'cause I could kcik any ass needing it should the situation require it. BTW, you already impress me, and you are, to me, a real man. You love the life you have, and, despite the girls and Corine and being - ah, "engulfed in estrogen" - you manage to be who you are, and that is a wonderful thing to be.

And cave-mannish forays into physical violence does have it's place...it's just not here. But you, darling Deucey, knew that.

Hugs to you!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[happythoughts 0]

Two weeks ago, I went to a funeral near my old hometown. As we were leaving, we passed a house. There was a mailbox out front with a sign on top - "Goats for sale".

Whenever I hear, I am just an "old-fashioned girl", I think of goats. See, go back 100 years, women couldn't vote. A few years more, they couldn't own property in their own name. A few years more, they were chattel property. Three goats could buy you a honey.

There were pluses and minuses to the "good old days". How "old-fashioned" are we talking here?
"Marriages lasted longer." Really? Good marriages or women who didn't have the job skills to support themselves so they put up with anything.

There are still places that live and think that way. For some reason, people aren't happy about it.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I will wash the dishes while you go have a beer
Where is my Marlboro man
Where is his shiny gun
Where is my lonely ranger
Where have all the cowboys gone

Oy... Marlboro Man....

http://www.tobacco.org/Documents/dd/ddgaymarlboro.html

I thought they all died of Lung Cancer...but notice the gay sterotypes that the Marlboro guy elicits.. in the link.