Well I almost got killed (again)

[Ron 7]

This is the 3rd time I think I should have bought it.

Setting up my landing approach yesterday I do my left right check and start my hook.

The plan was to swoop by the hanger then surf into the wind about 20 feet from the beer line.

As I plain out WHOOSH!!!!!! I see a flash of blue pass right in front of me (Less than 15 feet...felt WAY less). I hit the wake from the canopy, lose lift and I end up sliding on my legs to a stop...Kinda cool, but my jump suit is now dirty. (Thank God its black so I still look cool).

I start walking up to the guy that cut me off. He is not a local, but I have seen him before. Some have complained about his canopy control. My buddy is already there (A big beefy SF Captain) and he is reading this guy the riot act.

I ask "What happened?"

He says that I cut him off.

"Huh?!?!?! You left after us and I was the low man."

He said I turned right in front of him. And he asks me my wingload.

"1.7 on a Stiletto. Did you see me below you?"

He says that he has an 88, and that he saw me.

"How did I cut you off if I was the low guy? You don't always have the right to hook. If there is traffic you don't try to swoop the same area. Besides I was into the wind, you went cross wind right in front of me."

He says yeah sorry.

"Lets just not do this again."

Lessons:

You don't have the right to hook if you endanger others.

If there is traffic join it, don't do your own thing, and definitely don't go perpendicular to it.

Low man has the right of way...I could not see this guy since he was above me and my canopy blocked him from me....but just because you have the right of way does not make you safe.

You can do everything right and still die. (Not saying that I did everything right, but its a fact worth writting)

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Faber 0]

back to the old post huh.. experienced jumpers never fuck... if he flyes an 88 he must be experienced... so are you(unless only the guys who kicks off 5000+ jumps a year is)

Just abit irony

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Ron 7]

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back to the old post huh.. experienced jumpers never fuck...

I never said that...Its just they don't get killed as much.

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if he flyes an 88 he must be experienced...

Not true. One does not mean the other. Him flying an 88 means he had 1500.00 dollars.

Besides our argument was on currency....Not total jumps. You can have 10,000 jumps and if you have not jumped in 5 years you are uncurrent and dangerous.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jmpnkramer 0]

Sounds to me like the guy was fixated on the ground.

It also sounds like he thinks that if his wingloading
is greater that he has the right of way.

I am glad that you are safe.

Laters,

KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[FallRate 0]

I always prefer a nice walk back to the hangar so that I can reflect on the jump. And I'm never in the mood to start packing right away. Screw traffic!

FallRate

[Amanda965 0]

I am glad that you are ok.

Check out January's Parachutist, it has alot of articles and debate regarding small canopies and collision. It is a hot topic on skydiving that see to pop up quite often. I wouldn't be surprised to see alot more dzos posting set rules about who can jump smaller canopies and mandating a little bit more than they do now. Although the individual jumping the canopy is ultimately responsible, it sucks to have jumpers endangering others under a perfectly good canopy. Sometimes it is better to have set rules because people can be too stubborn to make a wise decision about canopy size for themselves.

Blue skies and SAFE landings!
~Amanda~

[Beerlight 0]

Ron,

I've been lurking mostly until I read your post, but now I have to ask the question, why perform low altitude hook turns/swoop? This sport is risky enough, so why add to that risk with a bounce finish due to a swooping error and/or a canopy collision possible due to lots of people trying to swoop? Reading through back issues of parachutist, the majority of injuries (and deaths) lately are attributable to swooping.
I just had to ask.....

Thanks.

[payback462 0]

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Reading through back issues of parachutist, the majority of injuries (and deaths) lately are attributable to swooping.

no, the majority of injuries and deaths lately are due to low turns, most of which were not intended as speed-building maneuvers (i.e., get homeitis, avoiding obstacles, turning to get into the wind)

[jmpnkramer 0]

Even though you addressed your question to Ron I will answer.

Swooping is just a different aspect of the sport. It takes a very good canopy pilot to perform the maneuvers that are done.

Some of those injuries are just a mistake by some. Others are from people trying to swoop who have no clue what they are doing.

Ron is very experienced and in my opinion does not do super radical. He is just enjoying his canopy which he definitely knows how to fly.

As far as canopy collisions are concerned well they are going to happen. Unfortunately not everyone takes the time to make sure that the lane is clear for them.

You as a student could very well be involved in a canopy collision. Highly unlikely, but it could happen.

I personally have been involved in a canopy collision. The guy slammed into me out of my range of vision. Luckily no one got seriously hurt.

Maybe when you learn how to really fly a canopy you might like to have more fun under it.

This is a high risk sport and things happen.

Laters,

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[KolibrieLinda 0]

You say again how many times and what happened
before? Where it the same kind of things or different? And something else. I think being below don't give you all the rights. You know someone is above you so I always try to keep them in my sight which also means I try to keep them far enough away from me and then the change of a surprise
is smaller.
But I'm just a beginner so correct me if I'm wrong.

[pleifer 0]

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Ron,

I've been lurking mostly until I read your post, but now I have to ask the question, why perform low altitude hook turns/swoop? This sport is risky enough, so why add to that risk with a bounce finish due to a swooping error and/or a canopy collision possible due to lots of people trying to swoop? Reading through back issues of parachutist, the majority of injuries (and deaths) lately are attributable to swooping.
I just had to ask.....

Thanks.

Cuz the chicks dig it.....

ok flame on

_________________________________________
The Angel of Duh has spoke

[Beerlight 0]

My question has been answered..... I don't know Ron, but know he is definitely experienced. I just had to ask for my own enlightenment... Thanks.

[WILDBILLAQR 0]

At DSC they built a swoop lane away from "Genral" traffic area. You still have to obay traffic patterns in the swoop lane! Swooping is fun IF YOU HAVE THE EXSPERIANCE
This weekend there was a glider/powered plane mid air colision in Phx. All for people on both aircraft are dead! The powered airplane did not have right of way, the glider hit the plane. If right of way had been followed, all people would still be here. It's the same for our sport! follow right of way or land out!

----------------------------------------------
"Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!"
AQR#3,CWR#49

[happythoughts 0]

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I think being below don't give you all the rights.

Being low man does give you the right of way. The low guy cannot see someone above and behind him. The person above can react to the changes of the low man. The person below has no idea what the high person is doing.

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You know someone is above you so I always try to keep them in my sight

You can see above and behind you? For that field of vision, you must have an amazing neck.

I watched a guy hook over the top of someone at WFFC a few years ago. The guy on the bottom never saw it coming. The top guy took out the canopy of the bottom guy.

The rule is "Look before ya hook".
Look below and behind, because that is where you will be. Don't do it unless the pattern is clear.

[CrazyIvan 0]

Well...I'm glad to read this in TALK BACK and not INCIDENTS.

Be careful please.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[jmpnkramer 0]

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Low man has the right of way...I could not see this guy since he was above me and my canopy blocked him from me

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I think being below don't give you all the rights.

Technically the lower jumper has the right of way. How are they training you at your Drop Zone?

This does not mean that the lower jumper can do whatever they wish. The individual should still follow the general guilines for landing.

In this particular case Ron was the more correct jumper as he was landing into the wind whereas the other guy was doing a crosswind.

Laters,

KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[Ron 7]

It is like Kramer said another aspect of the sport.

Done correctly it can be as safe as skydiving can get.

I have probabley 2,500 hook turns...I have yet to break anything but my pride and I tore a Jump suit once.

The people who get hurt doing "hook turns" are the guys that try to progress faster than their skills. They buy small canopies without really understanding and being able to fly a larger canopy.

It can be done safe....By putting your ego in check and listening to the safe guys...not the "cool" guys.

You can learn to swoop safe and have fun...But you can't swoop for fun and expect saftey to just come naturally.

And AAD's have reduced the number of no pulls/low pulls...However the number of folks that are skydiving is growing...So the number of landing accidents is growing.

Like I said if you can put your ego in check swooping can be as safe as skydiving can be.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Beerlight 0]

Let me add just one thing, I might be an inexperienced jumper but I'm not inexperienced "about" jumping. I flew jumpers for 10 years and during that time we only had maybe 5 injuries due to hook turns/swooping, also (zero canopy collisions). Why, because back then high wing loaded canopies just weren't "in" nor really available, swooping wasn't a sport, and our DZO discouraged anything radical near the ground. Lives saved due to some of these factors?......probably. I know of the fun factor (I've done my share of buzz jobs). I'll shut up now! I appreciate everyone's response and helping me understand.

[Ron 7]

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You say again how many times and what happened
before? Where it the same kind of things or different?

Different....When given a chance to almost die...I like to pick new ways so I don't get bored.

Around 30 jumps Climbed out without a chest strap done right. Boy was I stupid.

Around 300 jumps had a VERY low pull while doing my first video jump. (low as in around 600 feet) Again boy was I stupid.

Around 1200 jumps had a really cool spinning mal with a tucked under cutaway handle....For the story do a search its on here somewhere...found it Here Bad luck...But good form keeping the handles and gloves!

And now this one....Maybe I would not have died....But it sure would have hurt....The others..I was toast.

Simple fact..skydive long enough and there will be a time when you might should have died...Sometimes you don't know it when it happens. I have been in freefall way to close to a cessna before...Close enough that I read the pilots name tag, and smelled his lunch on his breath.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AntiPinkChrissy 0]

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Being low man does give you the right of way. The low guy cannot see someone above and behind him. The person above can react to the changes of the low man. The person below has no idea what the high person is doing

I completely agree with you here, low man has right away, you can't see behind you.
One thing I think people need to keep in mind is that, most of the time on final there IS someone behind you, therefore you should make your landing a predictable one.
You need to keep in mind what size canopy you are flying and realize that you may overtake the person in front of you. Many times I have been lined up on final, I am the higher canopy and the person below either decides, oh well I'm gonna shoot the peas, or decides to land crosswind or decides that they must be perfectly down the windline to land. So it becomes a domino effect, I turn a little because the person below me is now directly in front of me, therefore the person behind me must adjust and so on.
Being predictable on final is greatly appreciated.

-Chrissy

~La La Gang Member #2~

[happythoughts 0]

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Being predictable on final is greatly appreciated

That definitely merits repeating. There are other people. If someone doesn't feel comfortable in crowds, land out a little bit and walk. I did it last Friday. The exercise of walking that extra 400 feet probably did me some good.

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[jmpnkramer 0]

You know darn well on the big ways I land away from the crowd.

You also know the reason why!

If I plan to swoop the pond I let everyone on the load know. If I am going to land in a different direction than the windline I also let them know.

Just one of the other ways to keep everyone safe.

Now if multiple planes are flying then it is best not to do radical maneuvers.

Laters,

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[kallend 1,623]

Seems to me that swoop ponds and swoop courses fall into the general category of "attractive nuisance".

That being the case, it also seems to me that those intending to swoop should identify themselves prior to boarding the plane, and coordinate among themselves how and when they make their landings.

I've watched the Red Bull competitions, and they are remarkably free from unwanted interactions simply because they are well coordinated.

I also think that swooping should be limited to a prescribed area on the DZ so that others may avoid that area.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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Seems to me that swoop ponds and swoop courses fall into the general category of "attractive nuisance".

Yes, and with the large differences in sizes of canopies, and fall rates these days it is more of an issue than before.

But the basic rules of "Low man has right of way" has not changed.

And the real issue is a guy that felt he had the "right" to swoop without any consideration of traffic.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[happythoughts 0]

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I've watched the Red Bull competitions, and they are remarkably free from unwanted interactions simply because they are well coordinated.

Swoop competitions usually put out 4 jumpers at a time at 5K. Since they are watching for each other, it works well.

Some of the jumpers at zhills will go up expressly for the purpose of swooping, they will get out at 5K also.

The ones that need to consider traffic patterns are the ones that are jumping with the rest of the load. Most of the experienced ones will hang out and wait for the rest to land before setting up.