strop45 0 #1 March 5, 2008 Robin Jacob was apparently making his first AFF jump, so good work on landing out on a bush covered hill with no damage. They were 3km from the DZ so its hard to understand why the AFF instructors jumped with cloud cover and a first jump student. http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/NationalNews/Story/tabid/423/articleID/48354/cat/64/Default.aspx --------------------------------------------------- Two skydivers have been rescued by helicopter after jumping out of their plane in the wrong place and landing in dense bush in the Coromandel Ranges, instead of the Thames airstrip. It is far from the ideal landing spot in every sense - dense bush and uneven terrain as well a good 3km from where they were supposed to come down. "Once we came through the cloud we just realised we were in the wrong place," sky diver Robin Jacob said. "I'm not sure why so we did the best we could and landed in the bush and these guys helped us out." First time skydiver Robin Jacob, and a second jumper, were winched to safety after their skydiving instructor managed to walk out to raise the alarm. The two men walked away virtually unscathed, but when the alarm was first raised police had no idea how bad things might be. "When one came out you don't know whether the other two are lying seriously injured or not," Senior Sergeant Jim Corbett said. "So hence it was a mad rush to try and locate them." Another sky diver who did not want to appear on camera told 3 News that they normally rely on visually identifying their target but that was not possible today because of cloud cover. Instead he said they called air traffic control who told them they were above Thames air strip. But air traffic control tells it differently. They say it is not their job to tell skydivers where they are, and ultimately the responsibility is the pilot's. Either way it has not deterred Jacob from skydiving. He is already planning his next jump. ---------------------------------------------------The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #2 March 5, 2008 There is something to be said ... about being able to spot.. and trying to spot over a cloud cover is far to interesting for my taste. I kinda know that a GPS spot may get you in the right area.. BUT.... I will stick with a visual spot ANY day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #3 March 5, 2008 QuoteThere is something to be said ... about being able to spot.. and trying to spot over a cloud cover is far to interesting for my taste. I kinda know that a GPS spot may get you in the right area.. BUT.... I will stick with a visual spot ANY day. Me too.... unless I'm riding Mullins King Air at HIS home DZ. He is spot on every time, visual or not."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Floats18 0 #4 March 6, 2008 14,000 feet; Exit Exit Exit!--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever DiverDriver in Training Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #5 March 6, 2008 Quote Quote There is something to be said ... about being able to spot.. and trying to spot over a cloud cover is far to interesting for my taste. I kinda know that a GPS spot may get you in the right area.. BUT.... I will stick with a visual spot ANY day. Me too.... unless I'm riding Mullins King Air at HIS home DZ. He is spot on every time, visual or not. You should have been on the first load 4 weeks ago...14 wy with video, only 3 people made it back...Turns out that it wasn't Mikes fault, his spot was goldenbut the winds were hauling ass.. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #6 March 6, 2008 Quote Turns out that it wasn't Mikes fault, his spot was goldenbut the winds were hauling ass.. Not his fault? Do you even know what the techniques for spotting are? Knowing the winds aloft and adjusting your exit point accordingly ARE all part of spotting! www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #7 March 6, 2008 QuoteNot his fault? Do you even know what the techniques for spotting are? Knowing the winds aloft and adjusting your exit point accordingly ARE all part of spotting! *** It is sad, but with big planes at almost all DZ's now, people don't always learn to spot and rely completely on the pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,254 #8 March 6, 2008 Quote Turns out that it wasn't Mikes fault, his spot was goldenbut the winds were hauling ass.. Sweet, I am so going to use that excuse when I spot a load off! "Hey, the spot was great, it was the sky that was wrong!"Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #9 March 6, 2008 *** It is sad, but with big planes at almost all DZ's now, people don't always learn to spot and rely completely on the pilot. Sadly, very true www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #10 March 6, 2008 Quote Quote Turns out that it wasn't Mikes fault, his spot was goldenbut the winds were hauling ass.. Sweet, I am so going to use that excuse when I spot a load off! "Hey, the spot was great, it was the sky that was wrong!" Yeah. Me, too. One question: Are we all going to have to pay him royalties every time we use it? Is the phrase copyrighted???My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kschilk 0 #11 March 7, 2008 If the spot's over the dz, it's easy but when the spot is a few miles away....well, I've found that there are a lot of places on Earth that look identical, from 13,000 feet. Sometimes, even with the best of efforts....sh*t happens. The real key, isn't to always get a perfect spot....but to be prepared and able to deal with the worst of 'em."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #12 March 7, 2008 Shit happens? Read the original post again. Seeing the spot to begin with goes a long way but it has to be able to be seen to begin with. Maybe dense brush and airport runways look the same to you from 13,000 ft; I notice a difference between the two. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #13 March 7, 2008 Bad idea to have any student above clouds. What if and an instructor had to deploy him at 11,000 feet? Where he lands will be random. Students have enough difficulty finding the DZ on clear days. Dropping them above clouds is just silly! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #14 March 7, 2008 Quote If the spot's over the dz, it's easy but when the spot is a few miles away....well, I've found that there are a lot of places on Earth that look identical, from 13,000 feet. Sometimes, even with the best of efforts....sh*t happens. The real key, isn't to always get a perfect spot....but to be prepared and able to deal with the worst of 'em. So your saying you'd exit a plane thinking, "It's got to be down there somewhere".......? www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chubba 0 #15 March 7, 2008 I had a ~2km off dropzone landing on my AFF2. Radio in my helmet didn't work and consequently I zoomed downwind for a few minutes before I reaslied what was going on. Nearly shat my pants on that one when all I could see around me was roads, bush and powerlines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kschilk 0 #16 March 7, 2008 Quote Quote If the spot's over the dz, it's easy but when the spot is a few miles away....well, I've found that there are a lot of places on Earth that look identical, from 13,000 feet. Sometimes, even with the best of efforts....sh*t happens. The real key, isn't to always get a perfect spot....but to be prepared and able to deal with the worst of 'em. So your saying you'd exit a plane thinking, "It's got to be down there somewhere".......? Actually, I know it's got to be down there somewhere. Clouds move, winds change and spots can be off but on every jump....the dz was right where I'd left it."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kschilk 0 #17 March 7, 2008 QuoteShit happens? Read the original post again. Seeing the spot to begin with goes a long way but it has to be able to be seen to begin with. Maybe dense brush and airport runways look the same to you from 13,000 ft; I notice a difference between the two. Bob Yeah, if you get around much...sh*t does happen. Maybe you should read my response again...you're going waaaay outta' your way to miss the obvious point. When the spot is over a farmhouse, a group of fields, a country crossroads or an Interstate exit...yeah, some do look amazingly similar. I never encouraged jumping without seeing the ground, since obviously....things can't "look the same", if you can't see 'em. Also...."seeing the ground" does not necessarily imply "horizon to horizon". I'll put it this way....I think it's wiser to be prepared to respond to a bad spot, than to only have the competence to land at the dz's plush, well-lit and spectator abundant landing area. Sorry, I can't dumb it down, any more than that."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites strop45 0 #18 March 8, 2008 Quote I'll put it this way....I think it's wiser to be prepared to respond to a bad spot, than to only have the competence to land at the dz's plush, well-lit and spectator abundant landing area. Sorry, I can't dumb it down, any more than that. Did you miss the part about this being an AFF level one jump, i.e. it was the student's first skydive. How do you make someone competent before they skydive??? Also of note was that they landed on a hilltop and were above hills with the student AAD set to DZ level. Note alot of use in this situation. While the fact that the AFF instructors jumped is a concern, the bigger concern is that they took a student with them...The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #19 March 8, 2008 QuoteYeah, if you get around much... ... Sorry, I can't dumb it down, any more than that. In my opinion this borders on a personal attack, is entirely inappropriate in this forum, and says more about you than perhaps you intend it to. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kschilk 0 #20 March 8, 2008 Quote In my opinion this borders on a personal attack, is entirely inappropriate in this forum, and says more about you than perhaps you intend it to. Bob {Quote:} "Maybe dense brush and airport runways look the same to you from 13,000 ft; I notice a difference between the two." {Quote} DITTO.......of course, the mods have final say but some of us like to think the pendulum swings both ways, on here. Words are like boomerangs....watch what ya' throw out there, it's likely to come right back at ya'. "T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kschilk 0 #21 March 8, 2008 Quote Did you miss the part about this being an AFF level one jump, i.e. it was the student's first skydive. I was referring to spotting, in general....not specific to this incident. If you jump enough and especially, in different areas.....chances are that sooner or later, you'll find yourself in a less than optimal position. I'm simply suggesting that being responsible for ones self, you know....a little self-reliance, can be a good thing when events don't exactly unfold in a by-the-book fashion. My skydive doesn't end at pull-time ....I think it's wise to have a set of EPs, for under canopy too."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites relyon 0 #22 March 8, 2008 This topic is specifically about a safety issue resulting from the lack of being able to see the ground on an AFF Level 1 skydive, not spotting in general. I'm extremely well aquainted with opening high and landing in non-optimal places/conditions, far in excess of what my profile may indicate (I'm thumbs up in this photograph). I go to great lengths to avoid such possibilities myself and point out them out to others. I apologize if you considered my reply a challenge or insult in some way; that was not my intent and I could have chosen better words. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,254 #23 March 8, 2008 QuoteIf you jump enough and especially, in different areas.....chances are that sooner or later, you'll find yourself in a less than optimal position. I'm simply suggesting that being responsible for ones self, you know....a little self-reliance, can be a good thing when events don't exactly unfold in a by-the-book fashion. Yeah, but you're also saying that voluntarily getting out so far from the DZ that you can't even recognise any landmarks on the ground (let alone see the DZ itself) is just "shit happens"!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kschilk 0 #24 March 8, 2008 No biggie, it's all in good fun. I concede that I'm guilty of thread-drift and realize my response may have seemed more harsh, than simply a "back atcha", as I'd intended. My apologies. I don't know about every dz, obviously....I can only draw from my own experiences. Most all dz jumps I've done were the same scenario...one person (an alleged "experienced" and licensed skydiver) calls the spot. I generally trust them to be somewhere close and when I'm in the door, I look for ground. Rarely is the dz visible, at that time...usually blocked by perimeter clouds or haze. I won't hazard the plane longer or force others to get out late, by dragging out my exit to get a specific visual on the dz landing area. If I see clear ground, I'm gone and if the spot turns out to be bad enough that I can't get back, I enjoy using my training and experience to land out. I most always do high h&ps anyway so a bad spot isn't much of an issue. For me, it's like jumping at two different dzs, without having to travel. I honestly look forward to an occasional bad spot. As for tandems and AFF, no...it should be a good spot but I think one spotting should be enough and the responsibility should not be put primarily on the pilot...even with gps. "T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot1 0 #25 March 8, 2008 Quote Quote If you jump enough and especially, in different areas.....chances are that sooner or later, you'll find yourself in a less than optimal position. I'm simply suggesting that being responsible for ones self, you know....a little self-reliance, can be a good thing when events don't exactly unfold in a by-the-book fashion. Yeah, but you're also saying that voluntarily getting out so far from the DZ that you can't even recognise any landmarks on the ground (let alone see the DZ itself) is just "shit happens"! Didnt you read his reply to me? Quote "the dz was right where I'd left it." Now I have to go get more popcorn......www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jakee 1,254 #8 March 6, 2008 Quote Turns out that it wasn't Mikes fault, his spot was goldenbut the winds were hauling ass.. Sweet, I am so going to use that excuse when I spot a load off! "Hey, the spot was great, it was the sky that was wrong!"Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #9 March 6, 2008 *** It is sad, but with big planes at almost all DZ's now, people don't always learn to spot and rely completely on the pilot. Sadly, very true www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #10 March 6, 2008 Quote Quote Turns out that it wasn't Mikes fault, his spot was goldenbut the winds were hauling ass.. Sweet, I am so going to use that excuse when I spot a load off! "Hey, the spot was great, it was the sky that was wrong!" Yeah. Me, too. One question: Are we all going to have to pay him royalties every time we use it? Is the phrase copyrighted???My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #11 March 7, 2008 If the spot's over the dz, it's easy but when the spot is a few miles away....well, I've found that there are a lot of places on Earth that look identical, from 13,000 feet. Sometimes, even with the best of efforts....sh*t happens. The real key, isn't to always get a perfect spot....but to be prepared and able to deal with the worst of 'em."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #12 March 7, 2008 Shit happens? Read the original post again. Seeing the spot to begin with goes a long way but it has to be able to be seen to begin with. Maybe dense brush and airport runways look the same to you from 13,000 ft; I notice a difference between the two. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #13 March 7, 2008 Bad idea to have any student above clouds. What if and an instructor had to deploy him at 11,000 feet? Where he lands will be random. Students have enough difficulty finding the DZ on clear days. Dropping them above clouds is just silly! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #14 March 7, 2008 Quote If the spot's over the dz, it's easy but when the spot is a few miles away....well, I've found that there are a lot of places on Earth that look identical, from 13,000 feet. Sometimes, even with the best of efforts....sh*t happens. The real key, isn't to always get a perfect spot....but to be prepared and able to deal with the worst of 'em. So your saying you'd exit a plane thinking, "It's got to be down there somewhere".......? www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #15 March 7, 2008 I had a ~2km off dropzone landing on my AFF2. Radio in my helmet didn't work and consequently I zoomed downwind for a few minutes before I reaslied what was going on. Nearly shat my pants on that one when all I could see around me was roads, bush and powerlines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #16 March 7, 2008 Quote Quote If the spot's over the dz, it's easy but when the spot is a few miles away....well, I've found that there are a lot of places on Earth that look identical, from 13,000 feet. Sometimes, even with the best of efforts....sh*t happens. The real key, isn't to always get a perfect spot....but to be prepared and able to deal with the worst of 'em. So your saying you'd exit a plane thinking, "It's got to be down there somewhere".......? Actually, I know it's got to be down there somewhere. Clouds move, winds change and spots can be off but on every jump....the dz was right where I'd left it."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #17 March 7, 2008 QuoteShit happens? Read the original post again. Seeing the spot to begin with goes a long way but it has to be able to be seen to begin with. Maybe dense brush and airport runways look the same to you from 13,000 ft; I notice a difference between the two. Bob Yeah, if you get around much...sh*t does happen. Maybe you should read my response again...you're going waaaay outta' your way to miss the obvious point. When the spot is over a farmhouse, a group of fields, a country crossroads or an Interstate exit...yeah, some do look amazingly similar. I never encouraged jumping without seeing the ground, since obviously....things can't "look the same", if you can't see 'em. Also...."seeing the ground" does not necessarily imply "horizon to horizon". I'll put it this way....I think it's wiser to be prepared to respond to a bad spot, than to only have the competence to land at the dz's plush, well-lit and spectator abundant landing area. Sorry, I can't dumb it down, any more than that."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #18 March 8, 2008 Quote I'll put it this way....I think it's wiser to be prepared to respond to a bad spot, than to only have the competence to land at the dz's plush, well-lit and spectator abundant landing area. Sorry, I can't dumb it down, any more than that. Did you miss the part about this being an AFF level one jump, i.e. it was the student's first skydive. How do you make someone competent before they skydive??? Also of note was that they landed on a hilltop and were above hills with the student AAD set to DZ level. Note alot of use in this situation. While the fact that the AFF instructors jumped is a concern, the bigger concern is that they took a student with them...The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #19 March 8, 2008 QuoteYeah, if you get around much... ... Sorry, I can't dumb it down, any more than that. In my opinion this borders on a personal attack, is entirely inappropriate in this forum, and says more about you than perhaps you intend it to. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #20 March 8, 2008 Quote In my opinion this borders on a personal attack, is entirely inappropriate in this forum, and says more about you than perhaps you intend it to. Bob {Quote:} "Maybe dense brush and airport runways look the same to you from 13,000 ft; I notice a difference between the two." {Quote} DITTO.......of course, the mods have final say but some of us like to think the pendulum swings both ways, on here. Words are like boomerangs....watch what ya' throw out there, it's likely to come right back at ya'. "T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #21 March 8, 2008 Quote Did you miss the part about this being an AFF level one jump, i.e. it was the student's first skydive. I was referring to spotting, in general....not specific to this incident. If you jump enough and especially, in different areas.....chances are that sooner or later, you'll find yourself in a less than optimal position. I'm simply suggesting that being responsible for ones self, you know....a little self-reliance, can be a good thing when events don't exactly unfold in a by-the-book fashion. My skydive doesn't end at pull-time ....I think it's wise to have a set of EPs, for under canopy too."T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #22 March 8, 2008 This topic is specifically about a safety issue resulting from the lack of being able to see the ground on an AFF Level 1 skydive, not spotting in general. I'm extremely well aquainted with opening high and landing in non-optimal places/conditions, far in excess of what my profile may indicate (I'm thumbs up in this photograph). I go to great lengths to avoid such possibilities myself and point out them out to others. I apologize if you considered my reply a challenge or insult in some way; that was not my intent and I could have chosen better words. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #23 March 8, 2008 QuoteIf you jump enough and especially, in different areas.....chances are that sooner or later, you'll find yourself in a less than optimal position. I'm simply suggesting that being responsible for ones self, you know....a little self-reliance, can be a good thing when events don't exactly unfold in a by-the-book fashion. Yeah, but you're also saying that voluntarily getting out so far from the DZ that you can't even recognise any landmarks on the ground (let alone see the DZ itself) is just "shit happens"!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kschilk 0 #24 March 8, 2008 No biggie, it's all in good fun. I concede that I'm guilty of thread-drift and realize my response may have seemed more harsh, than simply a "back atcha", as I'd intended. My apologies. I don't know about every dz, obviously....I can only draw from my own experiences. Most all dz jumps I've done were the same scenario...one person (an alleged "experienced" and licensed skydiver) calls the spot. I generally trust them to be somewhere close and when I'm in the door, I look for ground. Rarely is the dz visible, at that time...usually blocked by perimeter clouds or haze. I won't hazard the plane longer or force others to get out late, by dragging out my exit to get a specific visual on the dz landing area. If I see clear ground, I'm gone and if the spot turns out to be bad enough that I can't get back, I enjoy using my training and experience to land out. I most always do high h&ps anyway so a bad spot isn't much of an issue. For me, it's like jumping at two different dzs, without having to travel. I honestly look forward to an occasional bad spot. As for tandems and AFF, no...it should be a good spot but I think one spotting should be enough and the responsibility should not be put primarily on the pilot...even with gps. "T'was ever thus." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #25 March 8, 2008 Quote Quote If you jump enough and especially, in different areas.....chances are that sooner or later, you'll find yourself in a less than optimal position. I'm simply suggesting that being responsible for ones self, you know....a little self-reliance, can be a good thing when events don't exactly unfold in a by-the-book fashion. Yeah, but you're also saying that voluntarily getting out so far from the DZ that you can't even recognise any landmarks on the ground (let alone see the DZ itself) is just "shit happens"! Didnt you read his reply to me? Quote "the dz was right where I'd left it." Now I have to go get more popcorn......www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
