Pull-out PC

[hookitt 0]

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And from there we get urban legends that people take as fact.

Sparky
(edit to add what I'm replying to.)

Don't know what you mean so I'll just guess. My take is some designs work well, some do not. Some that do not work as well as they should by now, are still manufactured. You're welcome to ask me why I feel that way rather than say I'm creating an urban legend.

I personally feel most toggles are too soft. Thin brake lines and a firm opening can (and has) resulted in a toggle that doesn't release from the cateye.

I has dislike toggles where the bottom stub is close to the top one. It's very difficult to pull the slider down over it if it's bunched up all in one place. People get used to it or tolerate it but it's easy to fix.

Wings for instance has a poor pull out design. The lanyard from the pin to the handle is 2 pieces. The 2 pieces are larks headed together so there's a knot that needs to be stuffed somewhere under the side flap.

Generally the handle is too big and is also floppy.

My simple mods (generalized) ...

* Stiffen the toggles with 2 rows of thin very tight zig zag stitches so the brake line can't squish the toggle.

* Make the lanyard from the handle to the pin 1 piece of webbing.

* remove some material from the actual handle fabric to make it firmer, tighter, and slightly smaller. (go ahead and spin this one since it could apply to other areas in life)

I personally dislike handles on throwouts that do not tuck in. If they tuck in, they won't (easily) come out unexpectedly.

That's basically it.

For what it's worth, I still prefer a pull out.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[sprtdth 0]

So I was wrong. I was discounting poorly maintained/designed equiptment and poor packing habits.
I'm still not sold on the horseshoe,but, this is skydiving and "Murphy" is always lurking.

CRW Skies
Frank
CRW Diva #58

[fcajump 153]

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...generally the handle is too big and is also floppy.

My simple mods (generalized) ...
* Stiffen the toggles with 2 rows of thin very tight zig zag stitches so the brake line can't squish the toggle.
* Make the lanyard from the handle to the pin 1 piece of webbing.
* remove some material from the actual handle fabric to make it firmer, tighter, and slightly smaller. (go ahead and spin this one since it could apply to other areas in life)

This brings up something I wish someone would create for us... an archive of things tried and why we later discarded them...

With the pullout vs throwout, we at least have the design fairly well documented and those one each side that can discuss from experience what the issues are with each. Many here could quickly discuss the potentially fatal consequences of a misrouted bridle (of either pull or throw variety).

But...
Why are PC bridles typically a flat webbing not 550 cord?
Why is the reserve high on the back, not low?
Why do modern systems use a split harness (and have the "hole") versus a "sling" harness?
Why not put the throw-out PC on a strap on the front of your rig where you can find it easier... maybe on a belly band...?
Two words: Tape-wells?

OK, so there are many here (including myself) who can answer why many of these were abandoned. But I would like to see, maybe as part of the Parachute Museum, an illustrated list of things once tried and what the general experiences were.

It does happen that bad designs are revisited. When the next generation tries it again, at least they should have the opportunity to make new mistakes rather than repeat old (fatal) mistakes.

And aren't we glad that some old/bad/deadly concepts are sometimes revisited by new folks who can learn from the past and improve without having to relearn/repeat old mistakes... can you say "Birdmen"? (sure... I knew you could )

Now all we need is an older jumper, retired (with lots of time on his hands), who is very familiar with the old gear and its evolution who can document this stuff... (oh Jerry... )

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[ciscobird 0]

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The rig I'm buying has one.
Never jumped one.
Any comments?

Used to jump in Talon Flexon with pull-out. Had a similar incident to what MrHxxx posted on the other forum. Copying and pasting what he said:


"make sure the bridle is routed properly! the grommet the smaller bridle (with the pin) feeds through on the larger bridle should not be under anything other than one side flap. I created some hell-atious hardpulls for myself when I first transitioned and was packing this part of the bridle under the bottom and side flaps."

Since I was a newbie and didn't know what I was doing (yeah, luck was on my side back then...) this happened to me... twice...

I had to use both hands to pull the handle clear.

So be sure to watch where and how you route the bridle around and through flaps.

Also, on some dives I had hesitation, probably because I didn't pull the PC far enough.

If you get the pull-out rig, be sure to have somebody explain how to pack and route everything correctly before you pack for yourself.

[Airviking 0]

Thanks, that is all very good and helpful information.
The rigger I am buying from will deliver the rig packed per my request so that I can carefully unpack it and examine the pullout configuration. I also downloaded the rig manual. I'll grab a rigger at the DZ to show me any "gotchas" with the system.

Cheers!

I believe you have my stapler.

[airtwardo 6]

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Thanks, that is all very good and helpful information.
The rigger I am buying from will deliver the rig packed per my request so that I can carefully unpack it and examine the pullout configuration. I also downloaded the rig manual. I'll grab a rigger at the DZ to show me any "gotchas" with the system.

Cheers!

And give your self some extra altitude until you become familiar with it...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[racerman 0]

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Look around you, see what system the majority of people are using, and ask yourself why. If you decide to go with a 'pull-out' do yourself a favour and buy an AAD...

Let's see...pullout=AAD. That's like saying Vector=reserve pilot chute in tow. Oh wait, it does!!

[airdvr 197]

Made most of my jumps on Racers with pull-outs. 2 times I rode my reserve because of a floating pud. WHen I finally replaced my rig...Racer with a BOC

I'll also add caution to testing whether you can reach back and feel your closing pin. What you can do on the ground is very different than in freefall with no leverage.

Back in the day a PC in tow was much more common than now. I was willing to risk a lost pud in exchange for the reduction in PC in tow possibilities.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airtwardo 6]

Back in the day a PC in tow was much more common than now. I was willing to risk a lost pud in exchange for the reduction in PC in tow possibilities.

Understandable, but for me anyway...

Like I said I've got almost an equal number of jumps on both types of systems...had a 'handful' of lost puds, (intendedpunny) and have never had a PCIT.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Airviking 0]

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...had a 'handful' of lost puds, (intendedpunny) and have never had a PCIT.

What caused the floating PUDS?

I believe you have my stapler.

[airtwardo 6]

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...had a 'handful' of lost puds, (intendedpunny) and have never had a PCIT.

What caused the floating PUDS?

Combat RW

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[likestojump 3]

pictured is a 1993 Racer NOS pud.
it's stowage method is fairly flimsy, and can easy work it's way out by just moving around when sitting on the floor, so one can easily exit with a lost pud, let alone suffer one from combat RW :)

[Airviking 0]

I see. The floaters are the result of knocking the handle loose, not the result of a half-hearted deployment attempt. So it's really not much different than knocking loose a cutaway handle or reserve handle, except for the lack of line-of-sight. You gotta protect your handles and pins in the plane. If the PUD is as secure and protected as as a BOC pull-out pilotchute handle, then the risk are roughly equal.

Is this true?

I believe you have my stapler.

[airtwardo 6]

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I see. The floaters are the result of knocking the handle loose, not the result of a half-hearted deployment attempt. So it's really not much different than knocking loose a cutaway handle or reserve handle, except for the lack of line-of-sight. You gotta protect your handles and pins in the plane. If the PUD is as secure and protected as as a BOC pull-out pilotchute handle, then the risk are roughly equal.

Is this true?

I think it takes a lot more banging around to get a throw out out of it's pocket that it does to knock a pud off it perch.

And if a throw out DOES come out what happens? ...the parachute opens....

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Airviking 0]

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...And if a throw out DOES come out what happens? ...the parachute opens....

Yeah, I'm not sure which is worse, a floating handle, or an accidental deployment.

There's little doubt in my mind at this point that the pullout is a superior system. But I'm still getting my head around what the risks are and how much of a difference it really means.

I believe you have my stapler.

[Jeffrey 0]

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pictured is a 1993 Racer NOS pud.
it's stowage method is fairly flimsy, and can easy work it's way out by just moving around when sitting on the floor, so one can easily exit with a lost pud, let alone suffer one from combat RW :)

That was closed very incorrectly.

Jeff

[airtwardo 6]

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...And if a throw out DOES come out what happens? ...the parachute opens....

Yeah, I'm not sure which is worse, a floating handle, or an accidental deployment.

There's little doubt in my mind at this point that the pullout is a superior system. But I'm still getting my head around what the risks are and how much of a difference it really means.

The question isn't really which is 'worse' as much as it is, 'what are the odds'...in my experience the odds of the floating handle are much greater than the accidental deployment.

Like I said, it's a personal choice...

I just think it's important to understand that 'some' of the reasons people give for preferring a pull out over a throw out aren't necessarily valid...and that may mean they don't really understand the system.

Again I've used both... I've never had a low pull or reserve ride because of a floating pud, but my monkey arms go all way back there and then some. I did have a few jumps feeling around with the added 'oh fuck' factor going on, but I found it fast enough.

I've never had a throw out knock loose, prematurely deploy, or in tow behind me...so for me anyway, the 'minor' problems I had with pull-outs negatively outweigh the zero problem I've had with throw-outs.

Both systems obviously work, for me one works a little better than the other, but that wouldn't keep my from jumping a pull-out again if the situation called for it...I just wouldn't buy one using the reasoning that it's got a safety or reliability advantage over a throw-out.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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If the PUD is as secure and protected as as a BOC pull-out pilotchute handle, then the risk are roughly equal.

It's the 'IF' that gets you. A pud is generally not as secure as a throw out PC in terms of accidentally being knocked out of place. It's far more difficult (assuming all gear is properly maintained) to get a throw out PC to accidentaly out of place than a pud.

Even if a throw out does end up 'out of place' the result is an open canopy. Of course, an accidental deployment can be a real problem if anyone is above you. Of course, nobody should ever be above you, but it happens all the time.

When a pud is out of place, it depends on how much reach/time you have once you figure out that it's not where you left it. Keep in mind you generally don't discover the problem until literally the second of freefall. By the time you are reaching back, you have made up your mind that it's time to end the skydive, and this when you discover that your main handle is not in place.

Due to the lack of popularity of the pull out, you cannot count on your jump buddies to point it out to you during the jump. Most will have no idea what it is, or why it's blowing around just above your pin.

Either way, you may or may not end up with a terminal reserve deployment or AAD fire (if so equipped). Many jumpers have gone very low looking for a floating pud (without an AAD).

[Airviking 0]

Thanks Dave,

The "what if" was just hypothetical to help me understand the differences. But to me, it seems like a pretty straight-forward engineering task to design a PUD that mimics a pullout. But I've got better things to do...

So, the rig that I'm buying is a Talon Classic, and the harness/container system is probably worth no more than $250. So it's not likely that I will be putting $hundreds into modifying it to thow-out. Rather, I'll probably keep my eye out for a cheap replacement with a BOC collapsable throw-out. Maybe even an AAD, if I get crazy.

I believe you have my stapler.

[airdvr 197]

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But to me, it seems like a pretty straight-forward engineering task to design a PUD that mimics a pullout.

That's what we thought about blast handles and bellybands

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[racerman 0]

Each system has its own idiosyncrasies. I jumped a pullout for over 30 years until arthritis forced me to change to a throwout. The handle is easier for me to grip or else I'd still be using a pud. Yes. I've had floating puds but it was no big deal. If its stowed correctly (the one in the picture IS NOT) it'll be easily in reach.

[Airviking 0]

I've owned and jumped a bellywart with tapewells, and a Wonderhog with a bellyband throw-out and a blast handle reserve, before I finally got money together to buy new, modern gear. Each step of the way, I'd try to compensate as much as I could for the short-comings of the gear, by understanding the risks and planning for them. (That's really what I'm doing with this thread.)

I am also anal about packing. I have never rushed a pack job to make a load, nor will I let anyone but me touch my gear.

I practice EPs obsessively, and imagine different emergency scenarios and responses until I am confident that it will be second nature. That way I can forget (so to speak) all about safety concerns on the climb, and just enjoy the dive. Woo-hoo!

I believe you have my stapler.

[Dutton 0]

Wow.

Who packed that?

[likestojump 3]

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Wow.

Who packed that?

whoever I bought it from in June 2007.
I am surprised only 2 people commented on that :)

[Airviking 0]

What are you seeing? (Hey, I'm ignorant. I admit it!)

I believe you have my stapler.