President Bush admits intelligence error

[Gravitymaster 0]

I read about 2/3 of the "article" then clicked on the link. Sorry, this article was apparently written by someone with an ax to grind and I have no way of being able to verify this information as being anything more tha innuendo. I read many web sites like this about Clinton when he was President and assigned them the same credibility as this site. Haven't you heard about all the people Clinton murdered including Vince Foster or that Clinton is in with the Cali drug cartel? Hey, if it's on the web, it must be true, right?

[newsstand 0]

Well yes one of the topics for the Commander in Chief would be that he/she showed up when they were required to. Apprantly GWB didn't. Kerry and Clark did.

Not repsecting their politics is absolutely your choice and I respect that from you.

How much do you know about GWBs record before he became president? I lived here in Texas while he trashed the state as directed by Karl Rove.

I hope you don't believe that the GOP uses anything other than poles to decide the "truth" just like an other party, Unfortunately for GWB he is stuck with the polls of several months ago and has to defend his position from then.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[Gravitymaster 0]

I see a huge difference. To begin with, we knew Hussein had WMDs at one point because he used them on the Kurds. Hussein wasn't asked to prove he didn't have them, he was asked what he did with them and he refused to provide the information. Had he said I destroyed them it would have been very easy for him to take the UN inspectors to the site and have it tested for residue or whatever. That would have at least been a show of good faith on his behalf, but that isn't what he did. He said "take me at my word, I don't have them".

I can hear the lefties right now screaming bloody murder if GWB had taken SH at his word and some of these weapons ended up being used against another country or being sold to Al Qaeda.
That would be a real irony.

[Amazon 7]

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So, in and among all this 'Clintonese' behavior, he -did- receive an honorable discharge from the National Guard. And that was the point being debated

DO you REALLLLLY think they would have dared to give the son of a prominent Congressman a General Discharge.. GET REAL

The whole episode is sickening to people who actually jumped thru ALL the normal hoops to get in the military.. read it again...SPECIAL APPOINTMENT no OCS.. I wonder how much was actually just "fudged" to get him in.

[billvon 2,470]

>To begin with, we knew Hussein had WMDs at one point because he
> used them on the Kurds.

True - in fact we sold them to him hoping he would use them against Iranians.

>Hussein wasn't asked to prove he didn't have them, he was asked
> what he did with them and he refused to provide the information.

He provided thousands of pages of data to show what had become of them per the UN requirements. We didn't believe him. He claimed that he didn't have them; again, we didn't believe him. UN arms inspectors in Iraq said they could find no traces of WMD's. We didn't believe them.

Note a common theme?

>Had he said I destroyed them it would have been very easy for him
> to take the UN inspectors to the site and have it tested for residue
> or whatever.

You have GOT to be kidding me! You are actually, honestly saying that if we found traces of WMD's before the invasion, the administration's position would be "US now believes Iraq" instead of "WMD residue found in Iraq; president pushes for invasion?"

The WMD issue was an excuse to invade. There were a great many people who wanted to take down Hussein and needed an ironclad justification that would fly with the public, something that was so scary that it could override any objection. Claiming that Iraq could use nuclear or chemical weapons against the US or its allies was that justification. If WMD's had been found, it would have worked. They weren't. It's pretty simple, really.

[quade 3]

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I can hear the lefties right now screaming bloody murder if GWB had taken SH at his word and some of these weapons ended up being used against another country or being sold to Al Qaeda.
That would be a real irony.

Hey, I was convinced that Iraq had some progams and facilities based on my own viewing of commercially available satellite images. I've never said he didn't have them, only that it was up to US to prove he had them.

I still didn't want to go to war over it, since I thought a diplomatic solution was still available to US, but once we crossed the border, I knew we were in it for the long haul and we better be saving the world or we'd just be breeding even more terrorists.

I sort of assumed that as soon as we took Baghdad, we'd march into all the sites that were pointed out in the commercially available images and say, "lookie, we told you so". When that didn't happen I realized that the US was going to have a lot of explaining to do to the world. GWB had lead US down the primrose path.

Also, and I realize this might be a sort of fine point, I always assumed the CIA sat intel was better than mine and that they'd actually know what was and wasn't there and that if GWB was going to risk troops lives, he better well have freekin' proof. I'm deeply saddened to find out this does not appear to be the case.

As to GWB's actual service record, yes, it appears as if he did receive an honorable discharge, but there appears to be some unexplained time and circumstances. I don't think I'd go so far as to use the Michael Moore description of "deserter" (mostly because it doesn't fit the exact legal definition), but like I said, there is quite a bit of unexplained chunks of time coupled with the earning of some quick "points" to get an early discharge (by about 8 months). It's really a shame he doesn't have any better records to prove what he actually did, because it just looks fishy.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>To begin with, we knew Hussein had WMDs at one point because he
> used them on the Kurds.

True - in fact we sold them to him hoping he would use them against Iranians.

>Hussein wasn't asked to prove he didn't have them, he was asked
> what he did with them and he refused to provide the information.

Quote

He provided thousands of pages of data to show what had become of them per the UN requirements. We didn't believe him. He claimed that he didn't have them; again, we didn't believe him. UN arms inspectors in Iraq said they could find no traces of WMD's. We didn't believe them.

Neither did the UN nor anyone else IIRC. Did you?



>Had he said I destroyed them it would have been very easy for him
> to take the UN inspectors to the site and have it tested for residue
> or whatever.

Quote

You have GOT to be kidding me! You are actually, honestly saying that if we found traces of WMD's before the invasion, the administration's position would be "US now believes Iraq" instead of "WMD residue found in Iraq; president pushes for invasion?"

You have GOT to be kidding me. Do you honestly believe as focused as the entire world was at that time on Iraq that would have happened?? LOL


The WMD issue was an excuse to invade. There were a great many people who wanted to take down Hussein and needed an ironclad justification that would fly with the public, something that was so scary that it could override any objection. Claiming that Iraq could use nuclear or chemical weapons against the US or its allies was that justification. If WMD's had been found, it would have worked. They weren't. It's pretty simple, really.

I agree. How does your response have anything to do with the point I was trying to make with Quade that there was a difference between GWB having to prove a negative and SH having to prove he didn't have WMDs?

[Gravitymaster 0]

Hey, believe me we aren't too far apart on what we both believed and I'm already on the record as being pissed off about the way this was handled as you anfd I discussed recently. I do disagree with you it was up to the US to prove he had them. If you go back and read the UN Resolutions, you will recall it was up to SH to disclose what he had done with them.

[ltdiver 3]

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So, in and among all this 'Clintonese' behavior, he -did- receive an honorable discharge from the National Guard. And that was the point being debated

DO you REALLLLLY think they would have dared to give the son of a prominent Congressman a General Discharge.. GET REAL

The whole episode is sickening to people who actually jumped thru ALL the normal hoops to get in the military.. read it again...SPECIAL APPOINTMENT no OCS.. I wonder how much was actually just "fudged" to get him in.

Not excusing any of the behavior, just stating fact.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Amazon 7]

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Many of those throwing stones have NEVER served in the military. The guard is VERY political, always has been always will be.

The National Guard during the Vietnam War was a totally different organization than it is today in a post COLD WAR world. The reguular farces were in the millions to counter the everpresent communist threat. The National Guard at that time was almost never called up for anything other than disaster relief

It is interesting that this administration pays all lip service to supporting our troops SKYCOP... since he served so honorably you would think he would really support the people who have.

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff11112003.html

Conservatives have been quick to cry "Support the troops!" at anti-war demonstrators, but the Bush administration and its supporters in the Republican dominated Congress have meanwhile been busy screwing both veterans and active duty troops with a vengeance this year.

The hypocrisy of this administration, when it comes to veterans and active duty military, is truly staggering.

Thanks to the Bush Administration's and Congress's refusal to approve increases in the budget for the Veterans Administration, veterans now have to wait an average of six months to be seen. In fact VA spending per patient today is an average of $624 less than it was seven years ago. To add insult to lack of treatment for injury, the administration also is proposing levying a $250 charge on all veterans receiving treatment in VA facilities, and to end access for vets suffering from service-related problems who earn more than $26,000 a year.

"This president lied us into an illegal war and glorified it with TV specials," says Woody Powell, executive director of Veterans for Peace. "Yet he won't show up at a funeral" for any of the Iraq War dead. Of the Bush Administration's and Congressional Republicans' astonishing trashing of vets and active duty soldiers, Powell, a Korean War veteran, says, "I don't think they see it as attacking them. They see it as saving money.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Quote

Isn't it you who always goes on about how unfair it is to require someont to prove something didn't happen?

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam

On May 27, 1968, George Bush Jr. was 12 days away from losing his student draft deferment, at a time when 350 Americans a week were dying in combat. The National Guard, seen by many as the most respectable way to avoid Vietnam, had a huge waiting list -- a year and a half in Texas, over 100,000 men nationwide. Yet Bush and his family friends pulled strings, and the young man was admitted the same day he applied, regardless of any waiting list.

Bush's unit commander, Col. "Buck" Staudt, was so excited about his VIP recruit that he staged a special ceremony for the press so he could have his picture taken administering the oath (even though the official oath had been given by a captain earlier.)

Bush and his allies have tried to deny this with several changing stories, but Bush himself admits lobbying commander Staudt, who approved him, and court documents confirm that close family friend and oil magnate Sid Adger called Texas Speaker of the House Ben Barnes, who called General James Rose, the head of the Texas Air National Guard, to get Bush in. Rose, who is now dead, told his friend and former legislator Jake Johnson that "I got that Republican congressman's son from Houston into the Guard."

Staudt's unit, the 147th, was infamous as a nesting place for politically connected and celebrity draft avoiders. Democratic Senator Lloyd Bentsen's son was in the unit, as was Republican Senator John Tower's, both of Sid Adger's sons and at least 7 members of the Dallas Cowboys.

2. Took a 2 month vacation in Florida after 8 weeks in the Guard.
Just 8 weeks after joining, Bush was granted 2 months leave to go to Florida and work on a political campaign, the Senate race of Republican Edward Gurney. Bush took a leave every election season, in 1970 to work on his dad's campaign, and in 1972 to work in Alabama.

3. Skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as 2nd Lt.
As soon as Bush completed basic training, his commander approved him for a "direct appointment", which made him an officer without having to go through the usual (and difficult) Officer Candidate School. This special procedure also got Bush into flight school, despite his very low scores on aptitude tests -- he scored 25% on a pilot aptitude test, the absolute lowest acceptable grade, and 50% for navigator aptitude. (Bush did score 95% on the easier officer quality test, but then again the average is 88%).

What made Bush's appointment doubly unusual was his total lack of special qualifications. This procedure was generally reserved for applicants with exceptional experience or skills, such as ROTC training or engineering, medical or aviation skills. Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, reviewed the Guard's records on Bush for a special exhibit on his service after Bush became governor. Asked about Bush's direct appointment without special skills, Hail said "I've never heard of that. Generally they did that for doctors only, mostly because we needed extra flight surgeons."

Charles Shoemake, an Air Force veteran who later joined the Texas Air National Guard and retired as a full colonel, said that direct appointments were rare and hard to get, and required extensive credentials. Asked about Bush, he said "His name didn't hurt, obviously. But it was a commander's decision in those days."

Despite Bush Jr.'s weak qualifications, Col. Staudt was so excited about the direct appointment that he saged another special ceremony for the press, this time with Bush's father the congressman standing prominently in the background.

The direct appointment process was discontinued in the 1970s.

4. Assigned to a safe plane -- the F-102 -- that was being phased out.
As Bush has been quick to note, National Guard members do face the chance of being called up for active duty, though few actually did during the Vietnam war. So what a lucky break for Bush that he was assigned to fly the F-102 Delta Dagger, a plane already being phased out. In fact, the Air Force had ordered all overseas F-102 units shut down as of June 30, 1970 -- just 3 months after Bush finished his training. Since training is so airplane specific, Bush was guaranteed from the beginning to be safe from combat.

Bush's campaign has even used his training on the obsolete plane to justify his early discharge, almost a year before his scheduled discharge, since other F-102 pilots were also being released early. But they can't answer the obvious question -- why spend so much money to train a National Guardsman for 2 years on a plane that was already being phased out, at a time when the Guard was letting F102 pilots leave early due to oversupply?

5. Celebrity Political Date.
During his flight training, Bush's celebrity showed in a couple of ways. Most famously, President Nixon sent a jet to pick up the young flight student for a date with his daughter Tricia. Alas, the potential political marriage and dynasty was not to be. Also, the commencement speaker at Bush's graduation ceremony was -- his dad, Congressman George Bush Sr.

6. Illegal, overruled transfer to a base with no work.
In 1972, Bush once again wanted to work on a political campaign, this time in Alabama. He applied for a transfer to a nearly defunct base with no active training or work, the 9921st Air Reserve Squadrom at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. Bush's supervisors approved, but a higher headquarters overruled them, noting that the unit had no regular drills.

Lt. Col. Reese Bricken, the unit's commander, told the Boston Globe "We met just one weeknight a month. We were only a postal unit. We had no airplanes. We had no pilots. We had no nothing." Even Albert Lloyd Jr., a retired Air Guard colonel who is helping the Bush campaign clarify the candidate's service, told the Globe he was mystified why Bush's superiors at the time would approve duty at such a unit. Lloyd was personnel director of the Texas Air Guard from 1969 to 1995.

Now, the officer who did that has stepped forward and very directly admitted that he tried to get the easiest possible assignment for Bush. The personnel officer in charge of Bush's 147th Fighter Group, now-retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, says he tried to give Bush a light load when he told him to apply to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron in Montgomery, Ala. Martin said in an interview that he knew Bush wasn't eligible for the 9921st, an unpaid, general training squadron that met once a week to hear lectures on first aid and the like. "However," he said, "I thought it was worth a try. . . . It was the least participation of any type of unit."

7. Just didn't show up for a year -- with no punishment.
National Guard records and Bush's own supervisor's and friends show no sign of him attending any drills or performing any service for nearly a year, from May 1972 until May 1973. This period began with Bush moving to Alabama for a political campaign.

He later applied to transfer to a base that had no work; the transfer was first approved, then cancelled. Bush did nothing for several months; then in September he applied to transfer to Alabama's 187th Tactical Recon group for 3 months. This was approved, but the unit's commander, General William Turnipseed, and his then admnistrative officer, Kenneth Lott, have both said that Bush never showed up. "Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not," said Turnipseed. "I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."

Bush claims that he did some work in Alabama, but can't remember any details. “I can’t remember what I did,” he said. “I just—I fulfilled my obligation." Despite 2 years of searching through hundreds of records, his campaign has been unable to find any record of Bush's service there, nor could they find a single fellow serviceman who remembers his presence. The best they could produce was an ex-girlfriend from Alabama -- Emily Marks --who said George told her he would have to do some Guard duty later that year (1972) in Montgomery. But all that confirms is that he knew of his obligation.

In December 1972, Bush returned to Houston and was scheduled to resume duty there. But in May 1973, Bush's supervising pilots wrote in his annual efficiency report: "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report" (i.e. through April 30, 1972). Bush described one of the supervisors, the late Col. Jerry Killian, as a personal friend, so it's likely he would have noticed Bush and given him the benefit of the doubt. Later that month, two special orders commanded Bush to appear for active duty. He served 36 days of active duty during May, June and July before leaving the Guard early.

Amazingly, Bush was not disciplined in any way for his absence, and received an honorable discharge. Under Air National Guard rules at that time, guardsmen who missed duty could be reported to their Selective Service Board and inducted into the Army as draftees.

8. Skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests.
In April 1972, the military started including routine drug tests in servicemen's annual physical exam, including urinalysis, questions about drugs and "a close examination of the nasal cavities" (for cocaine). According to the regulation, the medical took place in the month after the serviceman's birthday. For George W. Bush, this meant August 1972.

It was May, 1972 -- one month after the drug testing was announced -- that Bush stopped attending Guard duty. In August 1972, he was suspended from flight duty for failing to take his physical. (Click here to see the document.) A Bush campaign spokesman confirmed to the London Sunday Times that Bush knew he would be suspended. "He knew the suspension would have to take place." Bush never flew again, even though he returned to his Houston base where Guard pilots flew thousands of hours in the F-102 during 1973. The only barrier to him flying again was a medical exam (and his lack of attendance).

Careful readers will recall that when Bush issued his partial denial of drug use, he said (or implied) that he hadn't used them since 1974, but he pointedly refused to deny drug use before then, i.e. during his military service. Several sources have also indicated that it was in December, 1972 -- 4 months after his medical suspension -- that a drunk Bush Jr. challenged his father to a fist fight during an argument over the son's drunk driving. (He had run over a neighbor's garbage cans.) Shortly thereafter, Bush Sr. arranged for his son to do community service at an inner city Houston charity.

Bush's campaign aides first said he did not take the physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was in Houston. But flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and some were assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, where Bush was living. The staff now admits that this explanation was wrong.

9. Left service 10 months early.
Even after that easy stint, Bush couldn't fulfill his obligation. He quickly made up the missed days he had to and applied for an early release, before he had to take his next annual physical exam (with drug test.) While the official discharge date was October 1, 1973, Bush's last day in uniform was actually July 31 -- a full 10 months before the end of his 6-year, part time commitment. Al Gore also requested and received an early discharge (from the Army, in his case) to go to school.

Weasel words; his story keeps changing.
When asked about his service, Bush has lied, changed his story repeatedly, and weaseled in a manner eerily reminiscent of Bill Clinton. First of all, he has flat-out lied. In his official autobiography, ''A Charge to Keep,'' Bush said he flew with his unit for ''several years'' after finishing flight training in June 1970. His campaign biography states that he flew with the unit until he won release from the service in September 1973, nine months early, for graduate school. Both statements are lies. Bush only flew with the 111th for one year and 10 months, until April 1972 when he was suspended for failing to take his medical exam (and drug test), and never flew again.

Then there is his Clintonesque weaseling and word choice. Bush and his campaign claimed that no Bush family or friends pulled strings. Under pressure, this changed to "All I know is anybody named George Bush did not ask him [Ben Barnes] for help." By that he meant, himself or his dad. Of course, it later came out in court that a close Bush friend, Simon Adger, had asked Barnes to get Bush Jr. into the Guard, and that Barnes did so, via General Rose.

Now's it's not even clear that a George Bush didn't ask for help. When pressed, the former president's spokeswoman (Jean Becker) said he is "almost positive" that he and Mr. Adger never discussed the Guard matter. "He [Bush Sr.] he is fairly certain - I mean he doesn't remember everything that happened in the 1960s..." In any case, Bush Sr. and Adger were very close. Ms. Becker acknowledged that "President Bush knew Sid Adger well. He loved him." Adger may have needed only a hint.

Furthermore, George Bush Jr. admits that he knew Adger socially at the time, and further admits that he lobbied Col. "Buck" Staudt, the commander of the VIP unit Bush joined. Staudt claims that he, not General Rose (who he later replaced), was the one who made the decision on admissions anyway. Bush Jr. admits that he met Staudt in late 1967, during Christmas vacation of his senior year, called him later, and -- in Bush's words -- "found out what it took to apply."

When asked how Bush came to call Staudt, his spokeswoman Karen Hughes said he "heard from friends while he was home over the Christmas break that ... Colonel Staudt was the person to contact." She says that Bush doesn't recall who those "friends" were. But we know that Sid Adger was also a friend of Staudt's, served with him on the Houston Chamber of Commerce's Aviation Committee, and in 1967 held a luncheon honoring Gen. Staudt and his unit for winning an Air Force commendation. In fact, both of Adger's sons also joined General Staudt's unit, in 1966 and 1968 respectively.

Bush and his staff also claim that he vaulted ahead of the Air Guard waiting list because he was willing to fly an airplane, and there were openings. There is nothing to support this claim, however. For one thing, the F-102 was being phased out at the time and F-102 pilots were being released from service early, as indeed Bush himself was. And Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, says flatly that there was no pilot shortage in the Guard squadron at that time. Bush's unit had 27 pilots at the time he applied; while they were authorized for 29 pilots, there were two more already in training and one awaiting a transfer.

Bush also weasels on whether he was avoiding combat or not. He has stated on several occasions that he did not want to be an infantryman, and acknowledges that he came to oppose the war itself. He claims that he joined the guard to fly planes, and would have been happy to go to Vietnam, but ignores the obvious choice of the Air Force or the Navy -- which his dad, a genuine war hero, joined. Furthermore, when he signed up for the Guard, he checked a box saying "Do not volunteer for overseas service." Later, he made a perfunctory application to transfer to a program called "Palace Alert", which dispatched F-102 pilots to Europe or the Far East -- and just occasionally Vietnam -- for 3 or 6 month assignments. But Bush was not nearly qualified, as he must have known, and was immediately turned down, and the F-102 not used overseas after June, 1970 in any case.

And, as noted above, his story also changed on why he refused to take a medical exam -- including a drug test - in 1972. (The refusal ended Bush's flying career.) His staff first claimed that he didn't take the physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was in Houston. But flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and there were surgeons assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, where Bush was living. His staff now admits that that explanation was "wrong", without saying where it came from or what the real reason was. Draft & National Guard Sources

All that typing and I'm still voting for Bush.

never pull low......unless you are

[Gravitymaster 0]

Bush's proposed 2004 budget for the Department is $63.6 billion. He also presents a potential explanation as to where this rumor came from: an obscure House resolution requesting that the House and Senate Appropriations Committee reduce most federal agencies' funding by 1% for the fiscal year of 2004. This reduction was proposed with the assumption that the cut would be made up by reducing abuse, fraud, and overall waste within each department.

Had this measure passed, it would have done little more than give Bush's proposed record budget for the department a slight shave. Even so, lawmakers quickly realized that the resolution would apply to VA, and exempted it from the reductions.

In addition to record funding and an exemption from a minor decrease, VA funding under this administration has been raised at a much faster rate than it did under the previous administration. Under Clinton, funding for the Department of Veterans Affairs averaged a 3.8% annual increase from 1995 to 2000. The Bush administration, on the other hand, has averaged an 11.3% increase from 2001 to 2004. Furthermore, Bush's first two increases, which together totaled just under $13 billion, nearly doubled the increase in Clinton's last five years combined ($7.3 billion).

By no stretch of the imagination is this administration abandoning its veterans. If anything, it may be the first to give them the kind of support they deserve.

[Muenkel 0]

Today they found ANOTHER mass grave compliments of Saddam Insane.

Post all you want, Bush still has my vote.

Chris

I have an idea, let's put all the radical lefties in the Sears tower, then give them what they want. Disban Homeland Security, release everyone in Gitmo and turn over the war on terror to the U.N.

_________________________________________
Chris

[SkydiverRick 0]

I have an idea, let's put all the radical lefties in the Sears tower, then give them what they want. Disban Homeland Security, release everyone in Gitmo and turn over the war on terror to the U.N.

[skycop 0]

Hey,
Counterpunch is a real objective news source!!
By the way, SAVE MUMIA!!!!
Give me a break!!
I've been in the military for over 20yrs, I suffered through 8yrs of the military being gutted. The guard and reserve are paying for those cuts now.
Let the facts speak, anyone can engage in Michael Moore(ish) whining and complaining. I see very little in the way of solutions in your posts.
GWB's service in the air guard is no big deal to me. He did serve, was a pilot, and was Honorably Discharged. End of story.
Just like the bullshit about John Kerry being involved in some type of war crime, that's bullshit too. You won't see many conservatives bringing that up. Most conservatives understand what it is to make tough decisions under difficult circumstances. Not licking your finger and feeling the political wind, before making a tough decision.
As far as the VA goes, there is alot of fat that needs to be trimmed in that agency, just like in most of government. I know guys who think just because they were in the military, the VA should take care of them for the rest of their life, thats bullshit.
We take non-combat vets to the VA all the time for their "substance abuse" problem they incurred while in the military. We are paying for that.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Amazon 7]

Presidents WORDS

These men and women are still the best of America. They are prepared for every mission we give them, and they are worthy of the standards set for them by America's veterans. Our veterans from every era are the finest of citizens. We owe them the life we know today. They command the respect of the American people, and they have our everlasting gratitude.” – Bush, 11/11/02

Presidents ACTIONS
According to a letter sent to the President by the major veterans groups, Bush’s 2003 budget “falls $1.5 billion short” of adequately funding veterans care. [Independent Budget, 1/7/02].

So now comes 2004 Budget and they have sent thousands of our sons and daughters, into harms way like they themselves never faced. His past actions speak volumes of who this man is. Most people who make mistakes in life have to suffer the consequences for them, our president has never had to face up to any of the consequences for his actions.

[Amazon 7]

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I've been in the military for over 20yrs, I suffered through 8yrs of the military being gutted. The guard and reserve are paying for those cuts now.

No you do not get a break... what makes you think you deserve one?

I only did 8 years from 1971 to 1979 then I got out and used my GI Bill.

Remember now, we won the COLD WAR... and we still need to maintain millions of men at arms with no one to fight after winning the Gulf WAR????? That reminds me of the officers after Nam that could not make rank... they made them NCO's until they could retire... and do so at their highest rank. We called them ROAD troops.. ( Retired On Active Duty). The point is.. our WWII, Korean, Vietnam, Gilf War Veterans were made A solumn promise.. that when they served their country... they would be taken care of by the country they served. FOR LIFE.. if they survived.

Remember the supposed Peace Dividend???

Standing down the forces as part of the cessation of 24/7 alerts was part of the deal.

And who were the members of Congress during the Clinton Administration from 1994 on who passed all of those budgets?

[Gravitymaster 0]

Perhaps if the military budget hadn't been cut so much for so many years under Clinton, GWB wouldn't have so much ground to make up. To blame GWB for Clinton Admin. cuts when he's increased the budget for veterans at more than double what Clinton did is kind of hard to understand. My father has been president of the local MOAA several times and their attitude towards the Bush budget for the military is much more positive than it was under Clinton. Is everything perfect? No. Is it getting better? Absolutely.

[Amazon 7]

Please see above.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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And who were the members of Congress during the Clinton Administration from 1994 on who passed all of those budgets?

So you are willing to concede all the budget deficits during Reagans term were caused by the Democrats?

[Amazon 7]

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So you are willing to concede all the budget deficits during Reagans term were caused by the Democrats?

And we have to ask the question then.. who have REALLLLLY been the biggest spenders in history???? the Tax and spend Democrats????

Nope the CUT TAXES and SPEND even more.


http://www.conservativeusa.org/gop-btry.htm

Excerpted from Howard Phillips Issues & Strategy Bulletin of July 15, 2003

REAGAN, BUSH, AND BUSH HAVE BEEN THE BIGGEST SPENDERS IN U.S. HISTORY

"The White House has submitted its budget for fiscal year 2004 - the period stretching from October 1, 2003, to September 30, 2004…. The administration’s budget - which is surely optimistic with respect to both spending and deficits - shows outlays climbing at a rate of roughly $100 billion a year and a deficit ranging from the upper $100 billion range to approximately $300 billion a year:

Year Spending
(Outlays) Receipts Deficit
. (billions) (billions) (billions)
2002 2,011 1,853 158
2003 2,140 1,836 304
2004 2,229 1,922 307
2005 2,343 2,135 208
2006 2,464 2,263 201
2007 2,576 2,398 178
2008 2,711 2,521 190

450% INCREASE IN FEDERAL BUDGET SINCE 1981

"…[B]y 2008, the federal government will be four-and-a-half times its size as at the beginning of the Reagan administration. Furthermore, surprisingly, (1) virtually all of the growth will have occurred during the three Republican presidencies, (2) with the exception of one-year aberrations during the Reagan and Bush II administrations, revenues will have risen every year during the twenty-nine year period, and (3) spending will have increased or remained constant during every single year:

Year Outlays Receipts Year Outlays Receipts Year Outlays Receipts
. (billions) (billions) . (billions) (billions) . (billions) (billions)
1980 590.9 517.1 1990 1,253.2 1,032.0 2000 1,814.4 1,727.3
1981 678.2 599.2 1991 1,324.4 1,055.0 2001 1,844.5 1,808.3
1982 745.8 617.8 1992 1,381.7 1,091.3 2002 2,011.0 1,853.0
1983 808.4 600.6 1993 1,409.4 1,154.4 2003 (est) 2,140.0 1,836.0
1984 851.9 666.5 1994 1,461.7 1,258.6 2004 (est) 2,229.0 1,922.0
1985 946.5 734.2 1995 1,515.7 1,351.8 2005 (est) 2,343.0 2,135.0
1986 990.5 769.3 1996 1,560.3 1,453.1 2006 (est) 2,464.0 2,263.0
1987 1,004.2 854.4 1997 1,631.0 1,505.4 2007 (est) 2,576.0 2,398.0
1988 1,064.5 909.3 1998 1,687.5 1,566.8 2008 (est) 2,711.0 2,521.0
1989 1,143.7 991.2 1999 1,760.7 1,643.3 . . .

BIGGEST GROWTH IN "DISCRETIONARY" SPENDING

"Over the next three years, discretionary versus nondiscretionary spending breaks down in this way:

. 2004 2005 2006
. (billions) (billions) (billions)
Defense 390 410 423
Nondefense . . .
Discretionary 429 440 447
Social Security 493 512 533
Medicare 255 272 301
Medicaid 185 199 217
Other entitlements 301 307 319
Interest 176 204 225

Source: National Legal Center for the Public Interest, Judicial/Legislative Watch Report, May 2003, http://www.nlcpi.org

[skycop 0]

Remember now, we won the COLD WAR... and we still need to maintain millions of men at arms with no one to fight after winning the Gulf WAR?????

This is the very same mentality that got us into the mess we are in now. We DID and do have an emerging enemy. Look where we are now!!
Thanks for making my point.

One last thing, I AM too stupid to figure out how to quote on here so please forgive the chopped up nature of the quotes.
No you do not get a break... what makes you think you deserve one?

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I didn't ask for a any breaks relating to my or anyone elses military service. I asked for a break regarding your slanted "source" of information.

Standing down the forces as part of the cessation of 24/7 alerts was part of the deal.

I don't need a lecture about the cold war, I was part of those 24 hour alert forces.

As far as the VA goes yes, war and combat veterans absolutely deserve life long care. If you read my post instead of soapboxing you would have seen it's the non-war, non-combat/training related treatment I have an issue with.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Gravitymaster 0]

So how can you argue for spending cuts while at the same time criticizing for not spending enough on favored programs? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending GWB on his budgets and spending. I am however amazed at Dems who want all these social programs AND balanced budgets. Sort of oxymoronic if you ask me.

[Amazon 7]

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This is the very same mentality that got us into the mess we are in now. We DID and do have an emerging enemy. Look where we are now!!
Thanks for making my point.

That was the prevailing attitude at the time and place in the early 90's..with the collapse of the Soviet Union.
But I guess we just need to bring back the draft so we can go goose-stepping to the New American Century and world domination in THIS TIME and place.

The mentality that got us into this mess can be laid right at the feet of the SAME people who are running the country right now. During the 1980's the same people were in the White House. Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld and company built Sadaam Husssien.. they were the architects of selling him the WMD technology to punish the Iranians for the Iran Embassy take over. That support led to his getting into debt. The Kuwaiti's and the SAudi's supported him in his battle against the Iranians. Sadaam owed them a LOT of money.. and instead of paying it back he felt he could get away with invading Kuwait. When the US Ambasssador sent the signal to SAdaam that we had no position on something like that he went ahead.

We also had supported the Muja's ( as in Osama Bin Laden) in Afghanistan thru surrogates in Pakistan. We gave them the money and weapons to drive out the Russians. By doing so we taught them that yes they could successfully take on a Super Power with the tactics they had used.

Now when Bush 41 decided to stop him a half a million Americans were sent into primarily Saudi Arabia. To these fundamentalist people that is 500,000 Infidels too many in the land of Mecca and Medina.. the holy sites of their religion. We won that war with a quick easy victory> That victory and our support for the Saud Royal family got us a new enemy.... our old enemy of my enemy is my friend.... Osama Bin Laden.

Are we following along here now......good... I know its tough.. but this is a big picture kind of thing.. I know you can do it.

So we win.. but leave a huge presence in the country containing these Holy sites as a couterpoint to SAdaam and..to support our guys doing the no fly zones....( declared after we ....OOOOOPPPPSSSSS sold out the Shiites of Southern Iraq and the Kurds in Northern Iraq after we encouraged them to revolt and we left them out in the very cold as Sadaam murdered thousands of these internal traitors to his regime)

For these percieved crimes against their religion and people.. Osama declared war on the US...( I am sure if ANYONE was listening at the time... it was probably a really good belly laugh at some NSA briefings... some whacko declaring WAR on the United States)
They made some attacks over the next few years supported various groups from various countries.. until they formed a solid terrorist alliance... little pin pricks to the big superpower but the response was measured and based on multilateralism.. building a consensus with other countries. We reacted as they acted.. we had some successes against them capturing some of them and we had some setbacks. Did we need to NUKE Baghdad or Teheran or Kabul for these minor attacks, I really don't think that would have played too well. I wonder how THAT would have played at the UN. The Soviet Union was broken up.. Sadaam was contained and we were at peace for the first time since 1941. The peace dividend and the drawing down of the forces was the prevailing outcome by nearly everyone.. conservatives and liberals alike. Being in the military when the war is over sucks... ask any the veterans after WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf WarI or any other conflict in history. Most people move on with their lives and find something to do in civilian life.

Jump forward to 9/11 .. they got our attention....enter the war on terror. Target one was Al Queda and the bases in Afghanistan that trained them. With the help of the Northern Alliance.. who did most of the actual fighting on the ground with some very well placed help by special operators and air interdiction we got rid of the Taliban and got rid of a good amount of the terrorists. American Deaths fairly low.. Job well done. At this point we had the sympathy and support of the ENTIRE WORLD. Now a smart group of leaders would have built upon these successes but it had been ordained from the very beginning of this administration that SAdaam had to go. Enter the most beligerant american foreign policy since Teddy Roosevelt. By thumbing our noses at the ENTIRE world and trumping up fake WMD sites and facilities that WE KNOW ARE THERE.... and following the pre-emption THAT MAN TRIED TO KILL MY DADDY policy .. it was personal and just good New American Centuryesqe to go to Iraq and complete the task that Daddy could not do in 1991. Side benefit... some of the largest proven oil reserves on the planet.. for a group of people who just happen to have a few ties to some companies that might just be able to exploit some of those OIL resources. Initially.. FABULOUS.. it went really well, we won the battles.. but unless we are very carefull we are not going to win the war. So far hundreds of americnas have paid for Mr Bush's machismo with their lives. These people have a VERY long memory. The bravado of " Bring it on" is just what they are doing... instead of having the world supporting us in our quest to hunt down terrorists..and dwindling the terrorists numbers and making it a safer world we have made it far more dangerous. You now have fundimentalist whackos from all over that part of the world coming on down to Iraq... and "bringing it on."

THIS is the mindset that got us to where we are NOW.


Notice I posted above.. another SLANTED source.( Conservative) But I guess I should NEVER quote from any sources that are slanted the way YOU do not like.

That is the problem with us silly moderates we actually get information from sources other than The ULTRA- Right Wing Hate jocks.

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I don't need a lecture about the cold war, I was part of those 24 hour alert forces.

Quick question.. just how many rivets did you count up to standing watch out there on the alert pad with the B-52's... I was always curious

[skycop 0]

Hmm.......
Nice diatribe, were you trying to make points between the rants?
The goose stepping thing was a bit much, and a draft, well not yet.
I would call your post anything but moderate.
I never personalized any comments about any administration, it would just weaken my points.
I agree on the fact of screwing the Shiites and Kurds, but during that time the left was having kittens about the fight not being fair and us winning so one-sided.
I also made no assumptions about your sources, you listed the link.
Ultra-right wing hate jocks? Talk radio I'm assuming? Well I can tell you one thing about that. I've never been so pissed-off as when I turned on ESPN, during the fisrt few NFL games of the season. There he was, Rush Limbaugh, doing football, I thought I was gonna puke! He thinks he knows everything, he got his in many different ways. Sorry hun, my sources are many and varied, including life experiences. I spent some time in the holy land and IT SUCKS! Also, your assumption about humping the flight line was way off. I got to load and unload those pretty, shiny nukes!! The cop thing came after my active duty days!!!
IYAAYAS!!!!

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"