riggerrob 558
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so would it be inappropriate to ask what kind of container it is?
Well I understand your rant and your justification to be appalled at how some riggers don't follow your same methods, it is not common practice, but it happens.
It seems to me that you're just out to rant and bitch and point fingers. If you really want to out the person for not being super thorough, then just out them.
I agree with Rob that data cards should be checked against the panels, but not all riggers are trained the same way, and unfortunately there are some mediocre riggers out there. If you have an idea of what those standards should be with your 50 repacks, then perhaps you are on the wrong side of the job. Give yourself time. When you f-up for your first time I wonder if you'll be so righteous or humble enough to admit you could have done better.
It seems to me that you're just out to rant and bitch and point fingers. If you really want to out the person for not being super thorough, then just out them.
I agree with Rob that data cards should be checked against the panels, but not all riggers are trained the same way, and unfortunately there are some mediocre riggers out there. If you have an idea of what those standards should be with your 50 repacks, then perhaps you are on the wrong side of the job. Give yourself time. When you f-up for your first time I wonder if you'll be so righteous or humble enough to admit you could have done better.
RiggerLee 61
If I was to take a shot in the dark I guess that it was probable a Dolphin. That's the most commen rig that I can think of with the tag on the riser. But the type of rig isn't really relevent.
Ecentually he has a good point. Cards get lost, they get swapped, cypreses get pulled, they get put in, bat changes may not be marked, etc. In theory all of this and more should be clearly anotated on the card... yah, right and monkies fly out of my butt. I do my best to try and make a habit of checking the data on the card against the gear as I go but I have been cought out like every one else.
I don't like doing my paper work up front. I know that's one theory. I've even heard FAA guys say that you should enter the gear in your logbook the moment a rig walks in the door of the loft. I just don't buy that. There have been times when we've had several people working in the same loft. Some times there was no idea who would be packing it till they picked it up and did it. Some times rigs would be in the loft for weeks before they were packed. I don't like haveing shit all out of order on the wrong dates. I concider the pack job to be done and the clock to start when I put the pin in. I like the date in my log and the date on the card to match. I reserve the right to call no joy and reject the rig right up to the moment the pin is in and I sign the card. So my attitude is that I try to check the data as I inspect and I save my paper work to the very last. But again that's just me.
It's not inconceaveable that he would check the SN of the reserve and not sweat the container till later. It's actually required that there be an external tag with that info and it's perfectly resonable that he should expect to be able to find it. Some dolphins just marginaly qualify as accesable. In the end it's just an lessen to him as a rigger. You may have learned this lessen young but for some of us we seem to need to be retought it from time to time.
Lee
Ecentually he has a good point. Cards get lost, they get swapped, cypreses get pulled, they get put in, bat changes may not be marked, etc. In theory all of this and more should be clearly anotated on the card... yah, right and monkies fly out of my butt. I do my best to try and make a habit of checking the data on the card against the gear as I go but I have been cought out like every one else.
I don't like doing my paper work up front. I know that's one theory. I've even heard FAA guys say that you should enter the gear in your logbook the moment a rig walks in the door of the loft. I just don't buy that. There have been times when we've had several people working in the same loft. Some times there was no idea who would be packing it till they picked it up and did it. Some times rigs would be in the loft for weeks before they were packed. I don't like haveing shit all out of order on the wrong dates. I concider the pack job to be done and the clock to start when I put the pin in. I like the date in my log and the date on the card to match. I reserve the right to call no joy and reject the rig right up to the moment the pin is in and I sign the card. So my attitude is that I try to check the data as I inspect and I save my paper work to the very last. But again that's just me.
It's not inconceaveable that he would check the SN of the reserve and not sweat the container till later. It's actually required that there be an external tag with that info and it's perfectly resonable that he should expect to be able to find it. Some dolphins just marginaly qualify as accesable. In the end it's just an lessen to him as a rigger. You may have learned this lessen young but for some of us we seem to need to be retought it from time to time.
Lee
sprtdth 0
QuoteWhen I learned how to be a rigger, I was taught to find the info first, fill in my logbook, fill in the data card (or verify if it's only a repack) THEN do the inspection, then pack it... My training tells me that if I don't have that info in my logbook, I don't pack it...
IMO as it should be.
CRW Skies
Frank
CRW Diva #58
Frank
CRW Diva #58
Not that it matters, but the rig was an Aerodyne Icon...
My original question was whether this particular situation would cause you to distrust the rigger (that goes to all riggers and non-riggers alike)... And of course how safe you would feel having someone who couldn't find the data label, but packed it up anyway, be responsible for your reserve...
The next question i posed was to whether it was common practice to fill in logbook/data card before or after packing...
My question to you Lee, how on earth do you fill in the data card and your logbook after you pack a new rig? Yes, you can typically access the rig info and AAd info but how do you find the reserve info? Do you call the MFG every time?
This is the 2nd time this rigger has had to call a MFG to get a serial number in the past 2 months...
My viewpoint on this:
IF a rigger can miss something as necessary as the data label on an inspection, what else are they missing?
I don't expect all riggers to follow the same procedures and protocols that I do, but if you can't do the job right, get the hell out of the loft.
And Rob, yes, you taught me well... it made it easy for me to pass Jay Stokes' tests...
My original question was whether this particular situation would cause you to distrust the rigger (that goes to all riggers and non-riggers alike)... And of course how safe you would feel having someone who couldn't find the data label, but packed it up anyway, be responsible for your reserve...
The next question i posed was to whether it was common practice to fill in logbook/data card before or after packing...
My question to you Lee, how on earth do you fill in the data card and your logbook after you pack a new rig? Yes, you can typically access the rig info and AAd info but how do you find the reserve info? Do you call the MFG every time?
This is the 2nd time this rigger has had to call a MFG to get a serial number in the past 2 months...
My viewpoint on this:
IF a rigger can miss something as necessary as the data label on an inspection, what else are they missing?
I don't expect all riggers to follow the same procedures and protocols that I do, but if you can't do the job right, get the hell out of the loft.
And Rob, yes, you taught me well... it made it easy for me to pass Jay Stokes' tests...
Quotecommon practice to fill in logbook/data card before or after packing.
With a number of riggers is done after, that dose not mean they are wrong for doing so.
Quotehow on earth do you fill in the data card and your logbook after you pack a new rig? Yes, you can typically access the rig info and AAd info but how do you find the reserve info?
It's real easy there Einstein, you make a note of all Dom's, SN's Batt. dates & next due, for the whole unit on your tool count sheet as you check each component's data panel, this way you also have an additional list of the info to hand the owner when they pick up the rig and you can review the info with them without getting out the data card again.
You have your way, others have their way, in the long run what the fuck dose it matter, as long as the work is done right, is legal and your not missing your molar strap or temp pins a week later when your done.
The rigger your talking shit about may or may not be a fuck up, maybe their new and have not learned a method that works for them yet, or maybe some asshat disturbed him during the process, maybe the phone rang, maybe you were there asking stupid noob questions and distracted him, there are many reason why one might make a mistake, wait till you make one or two and see if people start to bash you too.
Your ticket don't make you GOD, it's a ticket to learn forever!
If your so bent about it then file an report with the FAA or transport Can. or who ever you report to up there.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo
jdathome 0
This issue can be addressed in many ways. Should the rigger have known where the data label was on the rig he was servicing? Maybe not, but he should have been able to figure it out without calling the mfg, don't you think? Being a new rigger, I find myself fumbling around looking for that damn thing too sometimes. I tell you what, those rigs get a pretty close inspection due to the extra time spent.
As for making the log entry, we all have our own pattern and sequence of what order we do things. As for writing down the numbers from the labels, why? If you find the rigs data card, everything you need should be on that card. I find the data card FIRST, then compare each component to the information from the card. Once that check has been complete, I move on to the A.I.R. When the work is all done, I fill out the paperwork and seal the rig.
This works for me. It may not work for you and I don't care. Get your system down and do your job the best you can. Learn from your mistakes and don't do stupid shit that can get someone killed. I use a mollar strap because it works for me. If you don't use one, that's great. But don't give me a load of crap and tell me I'm wrong for using one.
To the original OP, if you don't like the rigger your using, find a different one.
As for making the log entry, we all have our own pattern and sequence of what order we do things. As for writing down the numbers from the labels, why? If you find the rigs data card, everything you need should be on that card. I find the data card FIRST, then compare each component to the information from the card. Once that check has been complete, I move on to the A.I.R. When the work is all done, I fill out the paperwork and seal the rig.
This works for me. It may not work for you and I don't care. Get your system down and do your job the best you can. Learn from your mistakes and don't do stupid shit that can get someone killed. I use a mollar strap because it works for me. If you don't use one, that's great. But don't give me a load of crap and tell me I'm wrong for using one.
To the original OP, if you don't like the rigger your using, find a different one.
To the original OP, if you don't like the rigger your using, find a different one.
YUP!
A rigger is in some ways like a barber or a chief...ya need to pay attention to what your getting from 'em & if it's not within your standards, find another that is!
Over the years I've come across several people that 'as far as their rigging goes' they were excellent skydivers!
I choose my rigger like I do my 'health care specialist' because they're kinda the same...to get one that knows what they're doin' ya kinda gotta study up, and know what you need and the usual way it's successfully done.
I don't mind having to wait a while to get my rig back or mind paying a extra for work from a quality professional...many times the two go hand in hand because the guy doing the best work is always busy!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
fcajump 153
Maybe, maybe not. Bottom line - If you're not comfortable with any rigger, get a second opinion. But I'd also ask the rigger (not accuse) about the rig and his experience, etc... as I go (not only when there's a problem).
As a rigger, the first time I got a Vector III in the shop, it took an embarrassingly long time for me to find where they moved the tag...
BUT, my own inspection check list has "Pack Data Card" as item #3 (behind "Manual on hand" and "Service Bulletin Check") meaning that I check it for ALL of the following before proceeding:
Owner information
Harness Info
Canopy Info
TSO limits for system
ALL above information is cross checked in my records AND on the physical gear. Eliminates that issue from coming up later.
And the check list items... that evolved from experience.
JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...
QuoteQuotecommon practice to fill in logbook/data card before or after packing.
With a number of riggers is done after, that dose not mean they are wrong for doing so.Quotehow on earth do you fill in the data card and your logbook after you pack a new rig? Yes, you can typically access the rig info and AAd info but how do you find the reserve info?
It's real easy there Einstein, you make a note of all Dom's, SN's Batt. dates & next due, for the whole unit on your tool count sheet as you check each component's data panel, this way you also have an additional list of the info to hand the owner when they pick up the rig and you can review the info with them without getting out the data card again.
You have your way, others have their way, in the long run what the fuck dose it matter, as long as the work is done right, is legal and your not missing your molar strap or temp pins a week later when your done.
The rigger your talking shit about may or may not be a fuck up, maybe their new and have not learned a method that works for them yet, or maybe some asshat disturbed him during the process, maybe the phone rang, maybe you were there asking stupid noob questions and distracted him, there are many reason why one might make a mistake, wait till you make one or two and see if people start to bash you too.
Your ticket don't make you GOD, it's a ticket to learn forever!
If your so bent about it then file an report with the FAA or transport Can. or who ever you report to up there.
Go fuck your hat...
I wasn't naming names, I wasn't talking trash, i was looking for opinions and common practices...
That's great if you write down the info on your toolsheet... this donkey obviously did not... not only that, but the rigger couldn't even find the data tag... which tells me the rig wasn't even looked at. I don't know about you, but when I get a new rig, i inspect every stitch, every piece of material, every everything... because manufacturers are human too... which would have led me to the data label...
In my opinion, a good rigger should not need to call the MFG or ask someone else where the info is AFTER they have already packed it... if you can't find the info, you don't pack it... you ask first, THEN pack it.
for those who said find someone else, I do all my own rigging... it's the dz gear not packed by me that i worry about... this rig is a DZ owned student rig...
Were you there watching the process? Were you there when he made the call called?
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo
riggerrob 558
Background information ...
The last time I checked, that DZ was using Sidewinder containers for students.
Sidewinders are similar to Vector 2 and popular in Western Canada.
Sidewinder packing data cards are stuffed into a small pocket at the top edge of the back pad. It is the same location as the label sewn to shirt collar.
Maybe not the "most" popular location for a packing data card pocket, but I can name a half-dozen other rigs with similar pockets.
The last time I checked, that DZ was using Sidewinder containers for students.
Sidewinders are similar to Vector 2 and popular in Western Canada.
Sidewinder packing data cards are stuffed into a small pocket at the top edge of the back pad. It is the same location as the label sewn to shirt collar.
Maybe not the "most" popular location for a packing data card pocket, but I can name a half-dozen other rigs with similar pockets.
riggerrob 558
Hah!
Hah!
That reminds me of a lazy rigger who asked for payment after "inspecting and packing" a reserve.
The customer replied that he stuffed a few dollar bills under a reserve flap!
Hah!
Hah!
Hah!
That reminds me of a lazy rigger who asked for payment after "inspecting and packing" a reserve.
The customer replied that he stuffed a few dollar bills under a reserve flap!
Hah!
Hah!
Hvance 0
QuoteHah!
Hah!
That reminds me of a lazy rigger who asked for payment after "inspecting and packing" a reserve.
The customer replied that he stuffed a few dollar bills under a reserve flap!
Hah!
Hah!
That's scary..
But funny..I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.
pchapman 261
QuoteThat reminds me of a lazy rigger who asked for payment after "inspecting and packing" a reserve.
Hmm! Which in turn reminds me of the lazy jumper who had his reserve repacked, went jumping for the weekend, then saw his rigger and asked about the bill for the repack.
The rigger (Steve West) replied that he had left the bill under the reserve pin cover. And that was in the days before "bomb proof" pin protection.
I use the attached list that starts when the rig come in. I fill in the date received and the owner information. It then goes on a clip board along with the Data card/s. It stays with the rig as I do the inspection and the packing. During the inspection I write done the information for each component. While packing I list each tool I remove from my kit, which is always on the other side of a short partition wall. This means I have to get up walk to the kit for each tool. It keeps me from just grabbing something out the kit and not taking time to list it. When I am working on an I&R I do not answer the door or the phone. And in my book, neatness counts. If the pin is in and rig just doesn’t look right I do it over. After a jumper drops a few thousand on a rig he has the right to expect it to look descent. I then seal the rig and count my tools. With all the rig information taken off the rig I then check it against the data card. If they match I finish the paper work and when I put the data card back I go over the handles the routing of RSL and a last visual of the container system.
A copy of the check list is given to the jumper. I explain what I have done and any comments I have on the rig. I ask if he has any questions about the work done or any questions about the rig in general.
Even with all the checks we can still make mistakes and you are only as good as you last save.
Sparky
A copy of the check list is given to the jumper. I explain what I have done and any comments I have on the rig. I ask if he has any questions about the work done or any questions about the rig in general.
Even with all the checks we can still make mistakes and you are only as good as you last save.
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
jdathome 0
QuoteI use the attached list that starts when the rig come in.
Sparky
I like your inspection sheet. It seems to be very detailed. May I suggest a couple things? If you were to add a letter-head, of sorts, near the top of the invoice, it would look very professional. Rather than your contact info being on 2nd page and near the bottom. Also, including your rigger seal symbol and rigger number may be a nice touch? But my suggestions are merely symantec, the info you have listed looks like it serves its purpose very well.
QuoteQuoteI use the attached list that starts when the rig come in.
Sparky
I like your inspection sheet. It seems to be very detailed. May I suggest a couple things? If you were to add a letter-head, of sorts, near the top of the invoice, it would look very professional. Rather than your contact info being on 2nd page and near the bottom. Also, including your rigger seal symbol and rigger number may be a nice touch? But my suggestions are merely symantec, the info you have listed looks like it serves its purpose very well.
Thanks for the input. I am not into letter head or stationary. If I were to add one to my present Check List it would no longer be 2 pagers. My seal # and certificate # can be found on the data card. I include my name and phone # as a ready reference if the jumper has questions at a later date. You must remember that the check list is more from my benefit then it is for the jumper.
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
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