Three fatal accidents in a week

[AdD 1]

I've absorbed it, but I'm not going to change my skydiving procedures based on internet chat room discussion. You replied WTF to my post but have you ever had line twists with a tandem passenger who was too fat for you to kick out of the twist? Would you rather chop or try pulling a toggle first if you had the altitude?

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[obelixtim 100]

Where did you get the notion that pulling on a toggle (releasing one brake) when you have line twists, and the canopy is stable is a good idea?. Or that riding a problem canopy is a good idea.

All that can do is make a small problem into something bigger.

My "WTF" was posted to indicate to others (especially less experienced) that there might be more to these scenarios than you have considered.

Your procedures do not follow accepted safe practice at all.

But you know better, right?.

Far from "internet chat room discussion" being bad, the idea of chopping a mal is not based on a whim, it is based on the blood and bones of a lot of injured/dead skydivers who thought they knew better.

Accepted good practice is based on trial and error and often bitter experience, gleaned over many many years, by many many skydivers.

Internet chat is in fact no different from chats around the bar/bonfire after jumping, except you have the advantage of input from a wide range of experienced jumpers in all disciplines, from around the world. I wish we'd had access to such instant input back in the early days, it would have saved many lives and limbs, as it does now.

Don't knock the internet, or what you can learn here..

Consenses amongst such a varied group would usually suggest the message means something, and luckily there are many inexperienced jumpers who take the time to listen and learn.

If you think you have nothing to learn from this combined wisdom, then I don't think you will be skydiving in your twilight years, as some of us still are. We've seen many new "experts" come and go over the years. Its quite a long line.

With a few exceptions, your odds of survival increase greatly if you follow tried and tested methods of dealing with problems. Riding or trying to re rerig malfunctions in the air is definitely straight from the book of stupid ideas.

People who have been there, done that, usually have valid views.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[ChrisD 0]

Leave it to Dr. K,...

June 2013 six monthes in, right on target six months for the next 20 - 25,

I, like everyone else, wish it was zero!

Is this realistic though?



C

I'm going to say it again:

Inteernet chat rooms or whatever give you a leg up in at least some are rehearsing information


Learning is information rehersal

Banter here may save someones ass someday!
C

Keep up the good work, "flame on."

I'm serious!

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[billvon 2,400]

> You replied WTF to my post but have you ever had line twists with a tandem
>passenger who was too fat for you to kick out of the twist? Would you rather chop or
>try pulling a toggle first if you had the altitude?

I strongly recommend that you do NOT do this. Here's the scenario:

===========
You have line twist and the canopy is spinning, slowly starting to build up G's. You are turning one way, canopy is turning the other. You figure you have time.

You decide to try the brakes. Line twists are holding the risers together. You choose a brake and pull. Yikes! Sure is a lot of friction in that twist! You put all your adrenalin-assisted strength into it and you manage to pull it down a foot.

You have chosen incorrectly, and the canopy now starts turning much harder into the spin. You let go. The toggle does not retract since it's twisted up into the mess now. The canopy continues to do what you told it to do, which is to turn hard.

You decide to cut away. You grab the cutaway handle. By this time the twists have moved down into your risers and the G-forces are building rapidly. You pull - and nothing. Your cutaway cables are getting trapped by the twists and the G-forces are starting to bend the cables at the loop.

And perhaps it's just as well because that loose toggle with the 2 feet of unstowed line is now tangled around the Gopro on your helmet.
===============

That would be a bad scenario.

Never release the brakes until you have cleared up the twist. If you can kick it out, great. If you do nothing and it's slowly untwisting on its own (and you have the altitude) great. If not, get rid of it.

[AdD 1]

Quote

Where did you get the notion that pulling on a toggle (releasing one brake) when you have line twists, and the canopy is stable is a good idea?. Or that riding a problem canopy is a good idea.

I didn't say anything about the canopy being stable. The two techniques I outlined have allowed me to avoid cutting away with plenty of altitude to spare.

As I said, I used the toggle technique in a tandem situation where my passenger's size prevented me from kicking out of line twists. It was successful in a matter of seconds.

I have also resolved a minor lineover near the end of the wing using an aggressive stall.

By the way, the guy who suggested the toggle turn to clear twists had over 30,000 jumps.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[AdD 1]

Quote

I strongly recommend that you do NOT do this. Here's the scenario:

Why would I be wearing a gopro on a tandem? Did you read my post?

I did comment on this thread with the intention of starting a bit of a discussion, I'm pointing out that there are grey areas between standard EPs and the full spectrum of possible solutions to an imperfect parachute.

Should those solutions be pursued, it depends on the scenario I think.

Grey Area: You are near deployment on a tandem jump and your camera flyer suddenly flies into your drogue and their helmet is entangled. Have you ever considered what you would do? What would be the outcome of deploying or using standard EPs?

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[DSE 3]

AdD

Quote

I strongly recommend that you do NOT do this. Here's the scenario:

Why would I be wearing a gopro on a tandem? Did you read my post?

I did comment on this thread with the intention of starting a bit of a discussion, I'm pointing out that there are grey areas between standard EPs and the full spectrum of possible solutions to an imperfect parachute.

Should those solutions be pursued, it depends on the scenario I think.

Grey Area: You are near deployment on a tandem jump and your camera flyer suddenly flies into your drogue and their helmet is entangled. Have you ever considered what you would do? What would be the outcome of deploying or using standard EPs?

~none of the incidents of late are tandems, therefore the context of the discussion changes.
~Many tandem instructors wear GoPro or other small-format cameras on their left wrist as part of their tandem jump/video offering. A hand with a glove can become entangled just as a camera on a helmet may become entangled (albeit less likely).
~putting this kind of information out there as 'fact' may confuse a newer jumper, which is exactly what Twardo is saying. Terrific that pulling a toggle in a line twist worked for you; is that now your 'go-to' in every line-twist scenario? I don't think so, yet your post suggests as much.

Each scenario may be different, but bringing "tandem"to a sport-jump conversation will likely confuse some.

Stepping aside from the tandem/linetwist comments...
A hard helmet, an RSL, a Skyhook, an audible, or an AAD may or may not have provided the additional "edge" that could have made the difference in one or more of these fatalities. I'm not advocating running out and purchasing one/all of these devices, but rather advocating analyzing the situations one may find themselves in, and making choices based on the results of that thought process.
For example, nearly all my jumps these days are with students of one kind or another. For me, wingsuiting demands a hard helmet. I have no doubt I'd be dead at this point if I didn't wear one. Because I'm with students, that also requires an AAD. I tend to keep an audible as a backup device.

~We've just seen a collective of nearly 100 years and 50,000 jumps lost in a weekend. Experienced jumpers who have been doing it "one way" for a long long time, perhaps not acting in accordance with 'current' knowledge that has changed over the years due to more opportunities to learn from incidents. Jump numbers carry only so much weight.

[jumpwally 0]

Amen....nicely put....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[obelixtim 100]

Quote

I didn't say anything about the canopy being stable. The two techniques I outlined have allowed me to avoid cutting away with plenty of altitude to spare.

Its a bad idea when the canopy is stable. Its an even worse idea if you have a spinner. (Billvons scenario is very valid)

As to you getting out of twists twice with this technique, I think you got lucky. Advocating a change based on that is a little premature....your data base of two is far too small.

With highly loaded, spinning canopies, chopping is prolly one of the best options. Altitude gets eaten way too fast to mess around.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[AdD 1]

Quote

~putting this kind of information out there as 'fact' may confuse a newer jumper, which is exactly what Twardo is saying. Terrific that pulling a toggle in a line twist worked for you; is that now your 'go-to' in every line-twist scenario? I don't think so, yet your post suggests as much.

This was in the context of a reply to a few previous posts about cutting away immediately vs. doing something corrective. It is certainly not my go to procedure.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[AdD 1]

Quote

As to you getting out of twists twice with this technique, I think you got lucky. Advocating a change based on that is a little premature....your data base of two is far too small.

This is not my getting out of line twist technique, on my velocity I'd be on the risers and kicking, I'm just saying there is some grey area in the debate about immediately chopping every mal.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[obelixtim 100]

Quote

I'm just saying there is some grey area in the debate about immediately chopping every mal.

Fair enough, but as someone else already pointed out, the way you phrased it could have been misinterpreted by many. Its important to point out to lower time jumpers especially, that the best idea is to not mess with a mal.

In my own case, messing with a tension knot resulted in a very close call one time....stupidly I ignored my own advice, and ended up too low to chop, with a one cell main after turbulence collapsed my canopy near the ground. I walked away luckily....lesson relearned.

Having previously dealt with several high speed mals I got a bit cocky, but found out the most benign problems are most likely to kill you, because its easy to get sucked into messing with them.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[AdD 1]

True

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

...but have you ever had line twists with a tandem passenger who was too fat for you to kick out of the twist?

Why YES I have...I used the procedure I was told about by several highly experienced jumpers on the internet - in regard to pushing the risers together - instead of pulling them apart, or trying to kick out with a large passenger.

It works GREAT!


Though I must admit I'd never tried releasing a brake to get out of severe line twist, never heard anyone offer that tidbit of advise up on the net or elsewhere else...dunno - maybe there's a reason for that.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[AdD 1]

I did try that first, nothing happened. You should try the toggle trick and then talk to me about it.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[normiss 622]

Oh this is going to get good now.

damn. I wish I was home where I could have a beer!!!

[airtwardo 6]

AdD

I did try that first, nothing happened. You should try the toggle trick and then talk to me about it.

No...I quit doing tandems when the whole quantity over quality thing became so prevalent...

-When they added drogues and TI's quit packing for themselves - seemed like the acceptable standards for who was on the front OR back deteriorated considerably.

I have no problem with the whole carnival ride thing - it exposes a lot of people to our sport & pays for the turbines...it's just not why I personally got the rating.

I remember the 'tandem instructor' vs. 'tandem master' debate in the late '80s early '90s...I thought AFF would be a better way to 'teach'

I was a cab driver once in college, didn't wanna do whole givin' rides for money, hoping for tips thing again.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[AdD 1]

Just for fun, here's a lineover I did chop.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[airtwardo 6]

AdD

Just for fun, here's a lineover I did chop.

...like that wouldn't clear with a little work.

Nice pic, I like how you have the 'student' ready...newer TI's take note.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[normiss 622]

Followed by hooking legs and "AAARRRCCCHHH!!!!"

[yoink 321]

airtwardo

In the late 70's I watched Jim Stoyas go in because he fought a malfunction too long, you could actually hear him say "I fucked up" after chopping and going for the reserve way too low.

Adjusted for inflation, the skygods of today couldn't carry Stoyas's jock. He was one of the best OF the best.

The first comment I heard that afternoon was - 'Pretty goddamn stupid to die, not wanting to trade a bad parachute for a good one.'

I've got 14 cutaways in 4000 jumps...haven't been under an 'opening' reserve below 1800' in 35 years.

If it doesn't look right I try once ~ ONE TIME ~ to square it away, if that doesn't work it's gone...period.

You start mixing 'maybe' & 'if' & 'almost' into your emergency procedures and eventually ~ you will die.

We use to say 'never do any rigging with your leg straps snapped' - hanging under a malfunctioning parachute is no time to get creative.

We AGAIN have proof positive that sometimes, ALL you achieve by doing that, is room temperature.

If you don't trust your reserve - then either don't jump, or take along two.

By having the mind-set you 'want to keep it's use to a minimum', you have internally green lighted pushing a bad situation farther than you would if you were 100% confident in it...maybe farther than you should.

This is one of the best posts that I've seen on these boards. It should be required reading for ALL skydivers... and yes. There will be a test on it eventually...


Based purely on anecdotal evidence and gut feel from reading the incidents thread here for 10 years I'm positive many more people go in fucking with their malfunctioning main, or under a unopened reserve due to a too low chop than do under a malfunctioning reserve. That speaks volumes to me about which is the riskier option.

[chuteless 1]

That is good practice....great philosophy. More people should etch it in their brains and don't forget it when jumping.

[kallend 1,623]

ShayneH

Quote

No altitude is too high to chop. I look up and if I can’t land it, it’s gone. I don’t do rigging in the air. Too many people have died trying it.

Sparky

Heh, let's hear you say that when you take your brand new $2000 canopy on a 12,500' high pull only to mal out the door in 40kts uppers.

I was on a jump when that exact thing happened. They cut away, which was the correct thing to do under the circumstances. Three others accompanied them down to retrieve the main. Everyone lived and no-one was hurt.

Speaking only for myself, I consider my life and health to be worth a lot more than my canopy. YMMV.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 622]

Completely agreed.


I have been happy to hear "man that canopy was perfect just after you chopped it"!

[billvon 2,400]

>Why would I be wearing a gopro on a tandem? Did you read my post?

1) Many TM's use Gopro's
2) Most jumps are not tandems

>Should those solutions be pursued, it depends on the scenario I think.

In this case it is generally a bad idea.

>Grey Area: You are near deployment on a tandem jump and your camera flyer suddenly
>flies into your drogue and their helmet is entangled.

Yes, since it happened momentarily at my DZ a while back. There's no good answer there. If it were me I'd deploy at a normal altitude, hoping that he is able to clear it in time. If he does not I'd expect to have to cut away quickly.