Exit Sequence

[beatcreation 0]

First, lets say I am interested in doing a solo tracking jump. Where in the exit sequence would I fall?

Second, for someone just starting to work on their sit position but knows that they will most likely end up spending most of their time on their stomach seeing how they suck at sit should that person get out as belly or free fly?

[SPAWNmaster 0]

can't answer your second question but for your first one:

i do solo "tracking" all the time and usually they have me out either first or last. the issue is to make sure you are tracking perpendicular to jump run in either direction.

personally i'd take going out first because its such a pain in the ass to barely make it back to the DZ goin out last. i find myself flying 45deg from jump run towards the dz on most cases, that way i can make up for some of the distance while still making sure to not be directly over anyones air space.

id like to hear some more experienced jumpers opinion on this as Ive had people at the dz debate it in front of my face as far as whether trackers first or trackers last and can never get a clear answer as to what's better/safer.

[billvon 2,434]

>Where in the exit sequence would I fall?

If you are a good tracker, it doesn't much matter, since you will be well away from the jump run by the time you open. (Needless to say you should NOT track back to jump run before opening.)

[beatcreation 0]

Well good tracker definitely makes it more interesting. The reason I would like to do some solo tracking runs would be to practice my track cause I'm not sure how I am tracking currently. If I am tending towards a head down track then my horizontal distance may not be as far away from the jump run as one would like and my vertical position might be closer to the jumpers around me. Though I guess any tracking away from the jump run would be sufficient? Yeah the second question is much more difficult. I have wondered if I exit as a solo belly but I get into a good sit then I might end up crossing paths with a group of freeflyers but if I exit as a solo freefly and end up on belly most of the time I may end up with a long haul from the dz.

Thanks all for the input keep it coming!

[JohnDeere 0]

Trackers would normally go after freeflyers and before student/tandem. I would advise you find a good tracker at your dz and ask him to lead a track dive with you and him, to learn more. If you are going solo tracking or with anybody i personally spend a few secounds making sure which way jump run is. Tracking can be one of the most dangerous disiplens for a begenner.

Secound i would not advise you to start working on your sit untill you are stable back flying. Back flying is you safety position if you start to come out of your sit. If you only learn sit and fly with other it could be bad news if you cork. I promise if you do that they may never fly with you agian. Sitflying and back flying are best to learn with a good free flyer with you, or in tunnel. If you do practice freeflying by your self you should first let the group in front of you and behind you that are learning to freefly. Give the guys in front of you extra 3-5 secounds before you exit. Ask an instuctor, extra time will change depending on winds. But to answer your question you should exit after all other freeflyers but before students and tadems.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[popsjumper 2]

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...if I exit as a solo freefly and end up on belly most of the time I may end up with a long haul from the dz.

Not hammering on you but...This should be one of your last concerns. This is one of the major causes of separation problems at opening.

How to Create Separation Problems 101:
Horizontal...flying (freefall or canopy) towards others to make it back.

Vertical...pulling above your planned altitude for extra canopy time to make it back.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Butters 0]

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First, lets say I am interested in doing a solo tracking jump. Where in the exit sequence would I fall?

I exit after freeflyers and before students/tandems for solo tracking jumps.

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If I am tending towards a head down track then my horizontal distance may not be as far away from the jump run as one would like and my vertical position might be closer to the jumpers around me.

Talk to a good tracker/wingsuiter. (I used to think the flatter the farther, I was wrong.)

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[beatcreation 0]

Not hammering on you but...This should be one of your last concerns.

[rehmwa 2]

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But to answer your question you should exit after all other freeflyers but before students and tadems.

I'd put him between the belly and freeflyers. you don't want him drifting over the ff'ers

good advice about just telling the others that he's just starting. Ditto on the back flying etc.

I'd also add a little bit of coaching at first so he doesn't travel all over the sky.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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But to answer your question you should exit after all other freeflyers but before students and tadems.

I'd put him between the belly and freeflyers. you don't want him drifting over the ff'ers

good advice about just telling the others that he's just starting. Ditto on the back flying etc.

I'd also add a little bit of coaching at first so he doesn't travel all over the sky.

Last year we tried putting me out before the bellyflyers, freeflyers, and students/tandems. In the end, we put me out before the students/tandems.

PS: I got comfortable belly/back tracking last year. Do you know who at the DZ could help me bring my belly/back tracking to the next level this year?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pilot-one 0]

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In the end, we put me out before the students/tandems.

I don't get why the tandems are not long gone before anyone else gets out.
The tandems should have their own jump run at about 10000. And then the rest of us ride in comfort to real exit altitude.
At least that's the way it is where I jump
If you're going to be corking/freeflying then I think you should be the first freeflyer out just after the belly flyers.
I'm not sure about the tracking jump but what makes sense would be to get out with the WS flyers if you're fall rate is really slow or be the first belly flyer out before the RW groups.
I think it would depend a lot on your planned opening altitude as well.

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't get why the tandems are not long gone before anyone else gets out.
The tandems should have their own jump run at about 10000. And then the rest of us ride in comfort to real exit altitude.

I really like this concept

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Do you know who at the DZ could help me bring my belly/back tracking to the next level this year?

best belly trackers at the DZ? - Greg H, Jon A, a couple others

Back track? - Joel (of course), a couple others, Craig was really talented, but he's moved

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,434]

>The tandems should have their own jump run at about 10000. And
>then the rest of us ride in comfort to real exit altitude.

Nice concept, but wouldn't work for us; too much traffic. Sometimes it's hard to fit in an extra low pass when we have 3 aircraft turning.

[dnhump 1]

It's like this... tracking dives, belly-ways, freefliers, (those groups all go "largest group to smallest") then non-A lic. students; AFF jumps, tandems, wing-suit flyers. That's the order where I jump. We use an Otter and a Caravan... I try with all my might to understand why the order... I know...'drifty belly-ways' and 'damn-fast free-flyers' and what-not... didn't occure to me it would be different elsewhere... cool discussion.

[rehmwa 2]

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(those groups all go "largest group to smallest")

I don't necessarily buy into any value in the "largest to smallest", but I do agree that fall rate (slowest to fastest) makes the most sense in terms of drift.,

In terms of group size order (within each fall rate category), I'd think fitting in 2 ways between big ways allows more separation (both canopy traffic and in freefall) of all the bodies than putting the bigger groups back to back.

Also, putting out the little way (solo or 2way) on the green light before a big way climbout just gets one more group out the door for 'free' (you have to wait on the big way climbout anyway).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,434]

>I don't necessarily buy into any value in the "largest to smallest" . . .

The one place I do see value in this is putting the bigway out first. If it takes them 10 seconds to climb out, that's 10 seconds "early" you can make the spot and not 'waste time' waiting for them to get into position.

Also, a bigway needs X feet of separation on all sides - up to 2000 feet or so depending on breakoff. If you put them out first, you only have to put that huge gap in the exit order once instead of twice, which gets more jumpers safely out per pass.

[rehmwa 2]

But that's not 'largest to smallest' benefit. It's only a "early green for the biggest group" benefit.

and I totally agree with that

I'd still rather put a 2 way between two 10-ways than have them leave next to each other (even if the 2nd 10 way does still have a longer climbout). (goes for RW or FF)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,434]

>It's only a "early green for the biggest group" benefit.

And a "get more people out per pass" benefit of putting the largest group first.

>I'd still rather put a 2 way between two 10-ways than have them leave next to each other.

That would work too.

[rehmwa 2]

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And a "get more people out per pass" benefit of putting the largest group first.

you already made that point

please reference this
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3203526#3203526

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dnhump 1]

stagger the groups by size... I like it. 5-way, 2-way, 5-way. Good. But what I don't understand is this,,, Freeflyers fall fast and usually use smaller canopies, right? They should go out before the belly-ways because they can be to the ground (or nearer to it) before the belly-flyers even pull!! Then they won't be weaving in between all the less experienced (larger, slower canopies) in the landing pattern. Usually the less experienced people are doing belly jumps, right? (Not always, I know; just usually). The larger canopies can make it back to the landing zone easily. The high-performance canopies are quite "ground-hungry" and should be opening closer to the landing zone... Hence here's the order according to my logic (which has been enhanced by this discussion)... Tracking dives, freeflyers, bellyflyers (stagger those... big group---small group---big group--- ) then students, then AFF, then tandems, then wing-suit flyers. There you have it. That's the new rules. Period. Yeah right... At my DZ the order actually goes... Cluster-fuck, belly-tumble, smaller cluster-fuck, then inexperienced cluster-fuck, then go around and let out the tandems. And thank god for the tandems or all our cluster-fucking dives would stay on the ground. Our plane don't leave the ground without a tandem! Fuck a fun-jumper! Even though the fun-jumpers are the main source of tandems! If the profit ain't good, fun-jumpers sit and watch the "elite military packers and riggers" go up and down with a half-empty plane! Guess them riggers are practicing some "special-forces rigging freefall" crap. Oh well the staff is great. Even the Manager is cool... just wish the shot-caller would grow some balls! I hope I don't get in trouble for this rant. The truth is what it is!

[LloydDobbler 2]

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stagger the groups by size... I like it. 5-way, 2-way, 5-way. Good. But what I don't understand is this,,, Freeflyers fall fast and usually use smaller canopies, right? They should go out before the belly-ways because they can be to the ground (or nearer to it) before the belly-flyers even pull!! Then they won't be weaving in between all the less experienced (larger, slower canopies) in the landing pattern. Usually the less experienced people are doing belly jumps, right? (Not always, I know; just usually). The larger canopies can make it back to the landing zone easily. The high-performance canopies are quite "ground-hungry" and should be opening closer to the landing zone... Hence here's the order according to my logic (which has been enhanced by this discussion)... Tracking dives, freeflyers, bellyflyers (stagger those... big group---small group---big group--- ) then students, then AFF, then tandems, then wing-suit flyers. There you have it. That's the new rules. Period. Yeah right... At my DZ the order actually goes... Cluster-fuck, belly-tumble, smaller cluster-fuck, then inexperienced cluster-fuck, then go around and let out the tandems. And thank god for the tandems or all our cluster-fucking dives would stay on the ground. Our plane don't leave the ground without a tandem! Fuck a fun-jumper! Even though the fun-jumpers are the main source of tandems! If the profit ain't good, fun-jumpers sit and watch the "elite military packers and riggers" go up and down with a half-empty plane! Guess them riggers are practicing some "special-forces rigging freefall" crap. Oh well the staff is great. Even the Manager is cool... just wish the shot-caller would grow some balls! I hope I don't get in trouble for this rant. The truth is what it is!

The bit about tandems may be what the 'truth' is at your DZ...but I'd strongly reconsider your thoughts on exit order based on canopy size, if I were you.

Do a search on 'horizontal separation' vs. 'vertical separation', or 'exit separation' and see what comes up.

If you don't feel like searching, here's a link to a useful tool.

The short of it: vertical separation is nothing. Horizontal separation is everything. Stay safe.

Signatures are the new black.

[dnhump 1]

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stagger the groups by size... I like it. 5-way, 2-way, 5-way. Good. But what I don't understand is this,,, Freeflyers fall fast and usually use smaller canopies, right? They should go out before the belly-ways because they can be to the ground (or nearer to it) before the belly-flyers even pull!! Then they won't be weaving in between all the less experienced (larger, slower canopies) in the landing pattern. Usually the less experienced people are doing belly jumps, right? (Not always, I know; just usually). The larger canopies can make it back to the landing zone easily. The high-performance canopies are quite "ground-hungry" and should be opening closer to the landing zone... Hence here's the order according to my logic (which has been enhanced by this discussion)... Tracking dives, freeflyers, bellyflyers (stagger those... big group---small group---big group--- ) then students, then AFF, then tandems, then wing-suit flyers. There you have it. That's the new rules. Period. Yeah right... At my DZ the order actually goes... Cluster-fuck, belly-tumble, smaller cluster-fuck, then inexperienced cluster-fuck, then go around and let out the tandems. And thank god for the tandems or all our cluster-fucking dives would stay on the ground. Our plane don't leave the ground without a tandem! Fuck a fun-jumper! Even though the fun-jumpers are the main source of tandems! If the profit ain't good, fun-jumpers sit and watch the "elite military packers and riggers" go up and down with a half-empty plane! Guess them riggers are practicing some "special-forces rigging freefall" crap. Oh well the staff is great. Even the Manager is cool... just wish the shot-caller would grow some balls! I hope I don't get in trouble for this rant. The truth is what it is!

***
If you don't feel like searching, here's a link to a useful tool.

The short of it: vertical separation is nothing. Horizontal separation is everything. Stay safe.

[dnhump 1]

This is why I participate in this forum... Thank you for that link. I think that this kind of discussion is the reason this sport is growing safer. Experience and knowledge working together to eliminate obvious danger. Do you ever take the time or have the presence of mind to look up at the group after you or down at the group before you? It's a trip. Don't think it looks like a graph... just watch!