French hardware

[awagnon 0]

What is "French hardware" which is listed as an option on new Vector 3 harnesses? I did a search and only found one post which didn't really say anything. Is it better than standard pull through hardware?

Thanks. This may be an issue on a rig I'm hoping to buy.

Alton

"Luck favors the prepared."

[IanHarrop 37]

Quote

What is "French hardware" which is listed as an option on new Vector 3 harnesses? I did a search and only found one post which didn't really say anything. Is it better than standard pull through hardware?

Thanks. This may be an issue on a rig I'm hoping to buy.

Could be these:

http://www.paragear.com/templates/base_template.asp?group=244#HSS358

Soft links are fashionable these days, but French links work too and have for years.
Each has pros and cons.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[JohnRich 4]

See here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3610962;#3610962

[pilotdave 0]

Just curious... where's it listed? I can't find it on the order form or their website.

Dave

[virgin-burner 1]

it's nothing of the listed so far; basically it's a two-piece friction-thingy, no springs.. i have them!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Mirage has a picture of the different types on their website, and I bet it is the same as vector-
http://www.miragesys.com/products/?loc=detail&id=1&iid=1066

The "French Hardware" is also called the SP-888, it provides friction by running the webbing thru 2 pieces of stainless steel instead of one with a bar. Is it better than the other options? Usually yes, according to my master rigger, although even it will sometimes have a problem. One data point- I get slight slippage on my Mirage leg strap hardware (standard cadmium) and I plan on eventually replacing it with the SP-888 hardware. Everyone I have talked to who has it claims they get no slippage. I would get it if I were you.

[councilman24 36]

Slight slipage is actually good.

Very simplified version.

Cadmium, slipped a little absorbing some shock

When made in stainless, friction 'checkering' was too sharp and it didn't slip - no shock energy absorption.

Stainless modified to round over checkering, more like cadmium

But, add in webbing variations in thickness within specification and all bets are off on what will work or not. Your particular harness with any version of hardware may not slip, may slip a little, or may slip a lot. Some manufacturers may have it worked out better than others.

I don't think I'd selet 'french' hardware based on function.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 561]

Agreed!
Over the years, the French have invented a lot of different types of parachute hardware: horse-shoe shaped connector links, Maillon Rapide connector links, the first slotted harness rings for mini 3-rings, re-usable soft connector links, steel chest straps, etc. but I suspect that the OP was referring to SP-888, two-piece, "flip-flop," friction adapters commonly seen on leg straps.

SP-888 are better (than MIL SPEC cadmium-plated hardware) because they were specifically designed to be used with modern nylon webbing and stainless steel.

Remember that most of the old MIL SPEC hardware was originally designed to be used with fuzzy cotton Type 13 webbing. Ergo MIL SPEC hardware sometimes slips on thinner, modern, resin-coated nylon webbing.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Interesting, thanks. Not trying to get off topic but... how can I tell if my Mirage has cotton or nylon leg straps? It seems thicker and of a different texture than javelin and vector webbing, which seem to more often have the SP-888 hardware, and it does not have the yellow tracer tape. But thats just from what I've seen at my DZ.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Quote

Slight slipage is actually good.

Very simplified version.

Cadmium, slipped a little absorbing some shock

When made in stainless, friction 'checkering' was too sharp and it didn't slip - no shock energy absorption.

Stainless modified to round over checkering, more like cadmium

But, add in webbing variations in thickness within specification and all bets are off on what will work or not. Your particular harness with any version of hardware may not slip, may slip a little, or may slip a lot. Some manufacturers may have it worked out better than others.

I don't think I'd selet 'french' hardware based on function.

Not sure that I understand and/or agree. I would rather have a soft opening parachute and control shock absorption that way. ANY slipping in the leg straps is just distance that I have to fall before being caught by my harness! And it can make the rig shift around on my back when I go to grab the hackey. Am I missing something?

[councilman24 36]

The slippage I was referring to was upon loading at opening, not prior to opening. If the hardware isn't loaded (by the fat on your thigh or my thigh) or is tipped (for instance by the edge of a pad as one strap on a tandem was designed at one point) webbing can easily move through it.

Also, I'm an old time that still jumps parachutes that don't open into a streamer for 800'

With a canopy design that does routinely open softly hardware that doesn't slip upon loading is probaly okay. But not all of us want to jump those canopies.

EACH rig and each person that wears may have different results.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[fcajump 153]

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Interesting, thanks. Not trying to get off topic but... how can I tell if my Mirage has cotton or nylon leg straps? It seems thicker and of a different texture than javelin and vector webbing, which seem to more often have the SP-888 hardware, and it does not have the yellow tracer tape. But thats just from what I've seen at my DZ.

I would find it hard to imagine that Mirage was ever made with cotton. Not to say you couldn't, but the most recent cotton harness I've seen was from 1941. All the 1950's rigs I seen were already nylon.

Jerry/Terry: either of you know of anyone using cotton for a personnel parachute harnesses in the last 50 years?

There are several different sizes/weights of nylon webbing, different weaves used for some chest straps and in some cases multiple layers are used. Also, the coating used on the webbing at manufacture can make the weight/feel/flexibility different.

JW

(cotton simply burns, while nylon melts/bubbles as it burns, but I would NOT recommend checking your rig this way... best to ask a rigger his/her professional opinion or call the mfg)

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[JerryBaumchen 1,075]

Hi Jim,

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Jerry/Terry: either of you know of anyone using cotton for a personnel parachute harnesses in the last 50 years?

No mfr that I am aware of. I really doubt that anyone could sell a cotton harness in today's market.

Sort of like selling horseshoes to a bicycle rider.

JerryBaumchen

[riggerrob 561]

Agreed!
The last cotton harness - I have seen - was sewed at the end of World War Two (1945).

The Brits were still making cotton containers for ejection seats during the 1960s, but by then all their canopies and harnesses were made of nylon.

Even my 1985 Mirage has nylon leg straps.

Nylon is probably the best for harnesses because it stretches a little to absorb the worst of opening shock.
Jump Shack experimented with a zero-stretch harness - made of Kevlar or Spectra - in the late 1980s, but quit after breaking several prototypes on PD's drop test tower in DeLand. At least that is what Bill Booth told me. Does anyone believe that Bill Booth would spread dirt about his competitors' failures? Has anyone heard Bill Booth admit that some of his own prototypes failed?

[awagnon 0]

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Just curious... where's it listed? I can't find it on the order form or their website.

On the UPT website. Their order form shows four hardware options:

1. Thread thru
2. French hardware
3. B12
4. Quick ejectors

On several of their stock containers (one I would like to buy), French hardware is already included. Just wondering if I should get it or not.

Thanks for all the replies.

Alton

"Luck favors the prepared."

[Skydivesg 6]

Yes, you should get it. It is the standard on the Vector 3 harness.

If you want to have step-in-leg straps then this is the hardware that is recommended with the UPT rig.

Once it is adjusted, you can push down (with your thumbs) on the the top side of the hardware to lock it down firmly onto the legstrap. This will prevent slippage of the leg straps in freefall, opening and canopy ride.

I do this final adjustment on jump run.

You will like the hardware.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[awagnon 0]

Quote

Yes, you should get it. It is the standard on the Vector 3 harness.

You will like the hardware.

Thanks, Sandy.

Alton

"Luck favors the prepared."