Rubber Stamp

[AnonEMouse 0]

I saw a reserve card recently and the rigger information stamped. The date and stuff was written but the other stuff was stamped. is this legal? don't blow me off. I'd like a real answer.

A round is formation, not something to jump.

[hookitt 0]

Geez

Did you seriously think no one would answer.

Yes it's legal.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[likestojump 3]

it's legal. And it does wonders to prevent pencil packing.

[NovaTTT 1]

I use a stamper. It's easier, can't be pencil-whipped and it's legal.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[councilman24 36]

Sec. 65.131 Records

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(c) Each certificated parachute rigger who packs a parachute shall write, on the parachute packing record attached to the parachute, the date and place of the packing and a notation of any defects he finds on inspection. He shall sign that record with his name and the number of his certificate.


Well, it it legal? Is a stamp equivalent to a signature? Even if it's his signature?

I know lots do it. I also know someone who used to leave their seal and stamp on the packing table at the DZ for anybody to use. (no longer)

I use a stamp of my seal code. And number each pack job on the card and in my log to be able to prove I didn't pack a forged card.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[hookitt 0]

Now that I think about it, I'm not positive it's technically legal to have the signature stamped. I see it fairly often since it's very difficult to pencil pack the next pack job.

That also would lead to the possibility of said stamp being lost and forcing the rigger to actually sign it. If the card gets checked by another dropzone, they won't believe the actual signature is real

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[likestojump 3]

I was thinking more along the lines of cert # and seal being stamped - but the sig still being handwritten.

[airtwardo 6]

Not that I advocate bending the rules, but signed, stamped or semen stained...what makes a rigger think the packing card he's using today is the same one shown at the boogie last week?


I bought a used gear bag once with several cards for the same rig in it...'Hugh Jorgan' isn't a rigger I've ever met.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[NovaTTT 1]

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Well, it it legal? Is a stamp equivalent to a signature? Even if it's his signature?

Ultimately I guess that's for the courts to decide, but since an "X" can suffice for a signature, I suspect an unique stamp will also suffice.

The point and purpose, as I, not an attorney, see it, is: Is the "signature" unique and identifiable to an individual?

I have a ticket and two ratings but I do not work for the FAA and that's just my perspective.


ETA: "Hugh Jorgan"? That's what she said!!!!

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Joellercoaster 6]

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Well, it it legal? Is a stamp equivalent to a signature?

I know this is a US-centric and rigging-centric question so this is off-topic, but: there are countries where a stamp is required, rather than a signature where we would use one.

Those places could have a point!

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[phoenixlpr 0]

Playing with rubber stamp instead of making rig validity check online. Some characters before the signature would do the trick.

[riggerpaul 1]

Just as a data point, I'll mention that banks accepts stamped endorsements on checks, possibly preferring them over a handwritten signature.

Since checks are actually legal documents, I think this lends some weight to the notion that a stamp constitutes a legal signature.

[AnonEMouse 0]

the stamp I saw wasn't a signature, just a name, like typed out. intersting points being made.

A round is formation, not something to jump.

[stratostar 5]

Mine is my real signature that was made into a stamp.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 0]

The general rule - in the absence of a statute or regulation specifically stating otherwise (see below) - is that a rubber-stamped signature of a legal document is usually valid, as long as it is a genuine expression of the signer's affirmation that the document and his endorsement thereof are valid.

The only legal exception would be where an applicable statute, regulation, etc. specifically requires a manual signature in the signer's own hand. (Such exceptions are pretty rare in the US.)

In the US, unless there's some federal law or regulation to the contrary (although I haven't researched it), I'd think that a reserve data card that's signed with a rigger's signature stamp would probably be considered valid.

That being said, on a practical level, the validity of a signature is only as good as another person is willing to accept it as such. So, for example, if you're visiting another DZ, and the DZO refuses to accept a packing card (or jumps in a logbook, etc.) signed with a rubber-stamp, that's probably the end of the discussion.

[stratostar 5]

I've never had any rigging clients come back and say that the data card with a stamped sig was not valid at a dz, so i don't think that is a fair example, a better example would be:

Your standing in line to board the AC (or just landed in the LZ) and the FAA walks up and starts a ramp check of all parties on the load and the AC, during the ramp check each jumper is asked for their data cards and the friendly FAA person takes a look at yours with a stamped sig on it and says it's void because it's not in a written manner on the card and they cite Sec. 65.131 Records

...

Quote

(c) Each certificated parachute rigger who packs a parachute shall write, on the parachute packing record attached to the parachute, the date and place of the packing and a notation of any defects he finds on inspection. He shall sign that record with his name and the number of his certificate.

Now you have a problem.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NovaTTT 1]

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(c) Each certificated parachute rigger who packs a parachute shall write (empahsis added), on the parachute packing record attached to the parachute, the date and place of the packing and a notation of any defects he finds on inspection. Written in ink - A-OK He shall sign that record with his name and the number of his certificate. It is here that in my opinion, even to an FAA Inspector, a stamp constitutes a signature. And what is "sign"? What is "is"?

Now you have a problem. Possibly, but probably unlikely. Is it known to have happened before? I know that is no guarantee it won't happen, but it might be considered precedent. FWIW.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Andy9o8 0]

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I've never had any rigging clients come back and say that the data card with a stamped sig was not valid at a dz, so i don't think that is a fair example, a better example would be:

Your standing in line to board the AC (or just landed in the LZ) and the FAA walks up and starts a ramp check of all parties on the load and the AC, during the ramp check each jumper is asked for their data cards and the friendly FAA person takes a look at yours with a stamped sig on it and says it's void because it's not in a written manner on the card and they cite Sec. 65.131 Records

...

Quote

(c) Each certificated parachute rigger who packs a parachute shall write, on the parachute packing record attached to the parachute, the date and place of the packing and a notation of any defects he finds on inspection. He shall sign that record with his name and the number of his certificate.

Now you have a problem.

Yes and no. Most immediately, yes.
As I said above, unless there's an FAA reg that specifies a hand-written signature, the phrase "he shall sign" is technically satisfied by a rubber-stamp signature. But as I also said, as a practical matter, it's how the person who's looking at the signature chooses to deal with it. So, yes, if the FAA guy on the tarmac says you ain't getting on the plane, and sticks to his guns, then - even though I think he's technically wrong - you ain't getting on that plane. Good example.

[stratostar 5]

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it's how the person who's looking at the signature chooses to deal with it.

That is just my point, it's all in how the "friendly FAA person" conducting the ramp check chooses to deal with your "stamped" data card. I've seen it happen with wildly different takes on the reg's by inspectors from different fsdo's.

I've also been on demos at airshows and got ramped checked and they didn't have clue what they were looking at on a parachute.

With the FAA field inspectors it's all in who you get on that day and what kind of mood their in, sometimes.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mjosparky 3]

Since they give you such a limited space I had a stamp made with just my cert # and seal digits. I stamp the card and then sign over it.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 558]

Yup!
I have been using a rubber stamp and hand-written initials for the last dozen years.
No one has complained, not even gov't types.

Rubber stamps are far more difficult to forge.

[tdog 0]

Be careful... One of my customers is a world champion swooper... That means his rig gets wet in the pond every once in a while....

He called me a while back, "you dick wad, I paid you and you did not even sign my card!" Ok, he was a tad nicer, but since he was out of town, he was upset...

I knew I signed the card with my stamp... It's on my checklist... So I asked to see the card, and it was just a tad red, all over... The ink ran. I thought the ink was a sure bet, but I was wrong.

[SpacemanSpiff 0]

I apply ink to my rubber stamp with a Sharpie marker. I was concerned at first for the same reasons you mentioned. However, after conducting a few tests where I rubbed the card with a wet cloth and soaked the card in water, I'm pretty convinced that the Sharpie ink works well and does not run or smear on the packing card.

nick

[riggerrob 558]

Did you repeat tests on reserve packing data cards made of both Tyvek and paper?
Ink does not stick well to many Tyvek cards.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Be careful... One of my customers is a world champion swooper... That means his rig gets wet in the pond every once in a while....

He called me a while back, "you dick wad, I paid you and you did not even sign my card!" Ok, he was a tad nicer, but since he was out of town, he was upset...

I knew I signed the card with my stamp... It's on my checklist... So I asked to see the card, and it was just a tad red, all over... The ink ran. I thought the ink was a sure bet, but I was wrong.

Who got the rig wet, you or him. I pack parachute equipment not SCUBA gear.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals