Chute size for new jumper.

[JohanW 0]

Of course it's selfish, nothing wrong with honest selfishness, it's a very good motivator.

And nowhere did I say I wanted to save lives either.

Can we shut up and jump now? I have a date for doing some recreational instructional CReW tomorrow, helping another jumper get more educated and experienced.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

With a whopping 60 jumps I usually stay out these things, I'm a reader. But I'm callin' it; your statements are dangerous. Let's hope the OP has enough common sense to see through bullshit and make an informed, smart and SAFE decision.

Germain's chart and all the "nays" that you pointed out as not being justifed, are, infact, justified. Its called a standard, not a rule.

A green biker should not start off hitting the exit ramps at 85 mph with his new 1000+CC rocket.

Better he start off on the with a comfortable speed riding a conservitive bike for his size that he can grow into and later get that missile he been eyeing.

Same with skydiving. Germain's chart is an industry standard, not a rule. Its not breaking a law to downsize too quickly, but its not reccomended.

Noone here is saying that a new jumper with a WL of 1.4 will get hurt, or that he will die, but I think it is sound advice to say that his chances of getting hurt or dying are much greater when he goes from a student 260 to a 150. Keep in mind his exit weight it 210 lbs.

Who said you have to follow charts? I've read posters saying stuff along the lines of "here's a good chart", "check this, good info", "this chart is a good reccomendation", etc..

[antonija 0]

Quote

your statements are dangerous. Let's hope the OP has enough common sense to see through bullshit and make an informed, smart and SAFE decision.

I'd say my statements are pretty much the same as yours are.
- I merely stated that in my opinion it is stupid to base your decision about canopy size on few generalisations.
- I also said I find those same generalisation very helpful in deciding on canopy size.

In the end it's our decision to jump out of the plane, it is also our decision what size chute we will take with us to get us down safely.

Quote

A green biker should not start off hitting the exit ramps at 85 mph with his new 1000+CC rocket.
Better he start off on the with a comfortable speed riding a conservative bike for his size that he can grow into and later get that missile he been eyeing.

When funds are limited I often see people buy machines that are too advanced for them at the moment. I think they do understand risks involved in doing so and adjust their behaviour accordingly (not hitting exit ramps at 85 mph is a good idea in this case). They risk the option of being called bad words because they ride stuff too advanced for their level and at the same time don't enjoy any of the extras these advanced machines have over "more suitable basic models". But they consciously made the decision to play it safe with the bigger stuff instead of being cool with smaller stuff (we're still talking about bikes).

Since traffic and skydiving are not very predictable activities and just about anything can happen in both, then if some one make s a decision to jump canopy that is too small fro his level by current standards, he/she should also modify their behaviour accordingly (no low turns what so ever, avoid coming close to other canopies in the air, etc.). Not doing later part will most likely get you to a fatalities page on this site. Doing the later part will mean you are boring because you avoid things other people do every jump just for fun.

In other words: deciding you are good enough to play with the big toys (toys that are ranked above your level by current standards) brings the responsibility to play it safe. Don't expect to blame anyone else but yourself if things do go wrong. That is how I do every jump and I expect others to do the same.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[sasslife 0]

150 is fine at your weight

As an instructor once told me "its not what you fly its how you fly it"

[freeatlast 0]

Quote

In the end it's our decision to jump out of the plane, it is also our decision what size chute we will take with us to get us down safely.

Don't expect to blame anyone else but yourself if things do go wrong. That is how I do every jump and I expect others to do the same.

You make some very salient points as do several of the other posters here.

It is true that everyone should be responsible for themselves but it is also UNFORTUNATELY true that everyone else will be judged by the authorities on the actions of the minority who decide to do stupid things such as flying canopies which are definately unsuitable for them.

I have done my fair share of stupid things and have also questioned those who sought to restrict my fun, however i have very nearly shaken hands with the grim reaper on a few occasions and, like it or not, it would have often been others that would have suffered because of my actions.

You are right that people should be free to do what they want and should be responsible for themselves - but in which case you need to find a place and a way of doing things where your actions will not affect anyone else.

Even in the case of BASE jumping - if you go in or you get stuck somewhere - YOUR actions will still affect others whether it be the ones left behind or the ones who witness it or have to risk their lives to rescue you ...

In a regulated sport (which skydiving is whether you like it or not) the consequences are even greater for those around you hence the rules are more comprehensive (restrictive in some opinions).

We can debate the somantics of this situation but the status quo is that these rules exist for the general good of all ...

[Joellercoaster 6]

(Bike analogy)

Quote

that is too small fro his level by current standards, he/she should also modify their behaviour accordingly (no low turns what so ever, avoid coming close to other canopies in the air, etc.).

This is a bad analogy, and it keeps coming up on DZ.com. The answer keeps coming up too:

Bikes have brakes and throttles. You can ride a bike conservatively, you can ease off and think your problems through.

You can't fly a canopy that's too small for your ability slower, it only has one speed. You can maybe fly it in half brakes, but that give you a bunch of other problems that mean you can't just do that all the time until your ability has caught up with your ego.

The analogy is closer to driving bikes with the throttle wedged open. Suddenly you're not so keen to get on the bigger one.

If someone cuts you off on final, if you realise you've overshot your intended landing spot, if you just have a brain fart, all of these things are not preventable by conservative flying and will bite you (and maybe someone else) if you don't do the right thing. Having enough jumps on a bigger canopy is what will enable you to do the right thing!

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

Quote

then if some one make s a decision to jump canopy that is too small fro his level by current standards, he/she should also modify their behaviour accordingly (no low turns what so ever, avoid coming close to other canopies in the air, etc.).

We're talking about a guy with less jumps than fingers on his hands who started a thread to ask for advice. People gave him advice and suggested for him to look at downsizing charts, etc... He, aswell as others, does not know how to "modify" his behavior after downsizing 5 canopy sizes fresh off of student status. Someone with bare minimal canopy experience knows XX input on the left toggle on their landing pattern will produce XX result, that's what he knows. Now downsize 5 canopy sizes and that same input he made on a 260 is not the same as it is on a 150. He probably does not know canopy flight characteristics.

Quote

In other words: deciding you are good enough to play with the big toys (toys that are ranked above your level by current standards) brings the responsibility to play it safe.

Agreed. Noone has argued that. But downsizing 5 canopy sizes after 25 jumps with an exit weight of 210 lbs goes beyond "deciding you are good enough". That's the point where we have to police our own and say NO, for the sake of his life and others.

Quote

Don't expect to blame anyone else but yourself if things do go wrong.

I will blame the AFFIs, gear seller, DZO, other jumpers, I will blame anyone who knowingly let a fresh off AFF/student status skydiver jump said canopy at his weight - downsizing 5 sizes.

But yes, Noone is to blame for my actions but myself. But we all have a responsibility to look after (not babysitt) our new jumpers, police our own, and, for those who are qualified, give sound advice when called upon.

Quote

That is how I do every jump and I expect others to do the same.

Ok.

[timmyfitz 0]

antonija, after reading all of your post and noticing your profile lacking information, you sound like someone that has downsized to quickly and are currently flying a canopy smaller than recommended for your experience. It sounds like you are arguing with everyone to justify your canopy choice.

I don't know if it's true or not but that's the impression I get.

[antonija 0]

Somehow you got the idea that I claimed OP should go jump 150 sqft canopy. I never said that.

Now that we got this over with, my reply to relevant part of your post:

Quote

I will blame the AFFIs, gear seller, DZO, other jumpers, I will blame anyone who knowingly let a fresh off AFF/student status skydiver jump said canopy at his weight - downsizing 5 sizes.

None can "make him" not jump too small canopies. If he/she really want to jump smaller chutes all he/she has to do is write bullshit jumps into his/her logbook and go to a DZ where they don't know him/her or the instructor. You can only blame them for _advising_ not to jump small canopy or for not advising at all. You can not however blame them from the fact that someone jumped from a plane with too small chute, unless some one forced him too.

Quote

But yes, noone is to blame for my actions but myself. But we all have a responsibility to look after our new jumpers, police our own, and, for those who are qualified, give sound advice when called upon.

Give advice, educate, coach, whatever it takes to raise knowledge level.
Do not however limit someone just because you think it's right (through other methods than educational ones; prohibition never worked that well to test it on skydiving). People have right to be stupid (even if you spend lifetime educating them).

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[antonija 0]

Quote

antonija, after reading all of your post and noticing your profile lacking information, you sound like someone that has downsized to quickly and are currently flying a canopy smaller than recommended for your experience. It sounds like you are arguing with everyone to justify your canopy choice.

I'm flying a canopy that is over the limits of current standards.
I did not choose this canopy, it was chosen by my instructor.

Hope this helps.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[lost_n_confuzd 0]

From your other thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3675209;page=unread#unread

Quote

I currently jump 7 cell 170 main at WL 1.35. If I was under 160sqft canopy that would make WL 1.44. I've never flown a canopy loaded that high.

You are the last person that should be giving liberal advice on canopy downsizing to a student trying to jump a WL greater than your own.

I think the other poster is correct, you are just trying to justify your own canopy downsize progression. Which probably worked out for you, but, you obviously have more than 25 jumps unlike the OP.

[Chubba 0]

Quote

Why would you even *want* to?

Everyone skipped over this comment.

I don't even think it's a matter of education, but a matter of attitude.

WHY would you want to get a canopy loaded that high straight off.

Someone mentioned in this thread 2/3rd's standup, I don't think that's acceptable, people should be purchasing a canopy they can stand up close to 100% of the time in ideal conditions. Am I crazy for thinking that?

If you can't stand up in that position, wtf is going to happen when you get caught in the shit?

I bought a Sabre2 170 @ 0.95 for my 1st (and still) main canopy, ass slide on my 2nd jump and now have passed ~140 standups in a row. What is someone thinking when they're coming into final after a perfect pattern, dead on facing the wind, perfect weather and then it's a game of chance whether they have a nice landing or not? Isn't that highly stressful?

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

antonija, after reading all of your post and noticing your profile lacking information, you sound like someone that has downsized to quickly and are currently flying a canopy smaller than recommended for your experience. It sounds like you are arguing with everyone to justify your canopy choice.

I'm flying a canopy that is over the limits of current standards.I did not choose this canopy, it was chosen by my instructor.

Hope this helps.

You have confirmed my suspicions.

[Ion01 1]

I think the real issue is why are so many people wanting to downsize? I think it is driven by two things. 1. Its "cool" to have a high wing loading number/ small canopy. 2. They want increased performance and think that comes from a smaller canopy. They don't realize that performance comes largely from the pilots ability and the design of the chute. If you want a canopy that reacts faster and more dramatically to your inputs then get one with ZP material. This is a HUGE upgrade from student gear. Want more? get lines that don't stretch. Want more? get a slightly elliptical. Want more? Get a fully elliptical. This, doesn't even include the different designs that produce different performance such as a 27 cell design that allows for higher speeds, increased performance and reaction, all with and due to increased surface area..... not a high wing loading.

[Chubba 0]

Quote

I'm flying a canopy that is over the limits of current standards.I did not choose this canopy, it was chosen by my instructor.

That's not an excuse, you are ultimately responsible for your own safety.

I had an instructor try to put me on a 135 (1.2) as my first canopy, I told him no and bought a 170 via the DZ.com classifieds.

[JohanW 0]

Quote

150 is fine at your weight

As an instructor once told me "its not what you fly its how you fly it"

Thank you.
If I had 1500 jumps fewer, I might reconsider though.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[davelepka 4]

I've been following this thread, and even though it got a little off track, and your profile is devoid of information, I hung in there and gave you the benefit of the doubt to see where you were going with your angle.

Then a resourceful poster pulled this from another thread you were on -

Quote

I currently jump 7 cell 170 main at WL 1.35. If I was under 160sqft canopy that would make WL 1.44. I've never flown a canopy loaded that high.

- and that's when I realized that you sir are a real bag of douche.

You've got an awful lot of opinions about things you know zippo about.

Let's look at it this way, is Brain Germain all seeing and all knowing? Nope, but he very may well be the most expereinced and informed person on the planet on the subject of canopy flight, selection, and education. Nobody that I can think of has put more time, thought and effort toward those areas than him.

For all intensive purposed, he defines the upper limit of that area of study, so until someone comes along that can best him, he essentailly is the letter or the law in these matters.

All that aside, I caution you and your way of thinking in terms of skydiving, safety, and risk management. Your buddy Darvin doesn't know you from a hole in the wall, and will scoop you up just the same.

I'm sure you have a comeback for me, but guarantee you 100% that if you make to 15 years in the sport and 5000+ jumps, you will look back at your position today and see the error of your ways.

Little kids learn about hot stuff by touching the stove. Adults see kids make the same mistakes over and over again, and as such they never trust a little kid by the stove. There's no question in their mind that little kids will eventually touch the stove, and that they will get burned.

This is the same thing. Long time jumpers see tha same mistakes being made, year in and year out. There are very few expections to the rule. The difference here is that the 'kids' on the DZ are actually adults who should know better and should listen to reasonable arguments made by other adults who posess knowledge and experience in the area of concern.

Now man up and fill out your profile.

[antonija 0]

Quote

You are the last person that should be giving liberal advice on canopy downsizing to a student trying to jump a WL greater than your own.

If you read correctly I tried very hard to avoid giving OP yes/no answer, but I did try very hard to get the point of "think with your own head" through. Clearly many people here this is dangerous idea and I will try to refrain myself from suggesting it again.

I have not filled out my profile for the exact reason I stated before: people tend to connect jump numbers and skill in a linear fashion based on averages. I do not consider myself a very experienced skydiver nor a great canopy pilot; I also have no experience teaching other to skydive; I have not been involved in any parachute construction, testing or any other part of product development/production. There is also no way any of you can know my skill level unless you know me personally or one of my skydiving buddies.

I am however highly educated in my field of expertise and know more about it that majority of the people that every walked this planet. But even with all this knowledge and years of experience I do not believe that I have the knowledge to decide on limits that should be imposed in chosen profession just because I know a lot and have been through a lot. I do however try my very best to educate new people around me so they can decide for themselves what they will do.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

Quote

You are the last person that should be giving liberal advice on canopy downsizing to a student trying to jump a WL greater than your own.

If you read correctly I tried very hard to avoid giving OP yes/no answer, but I did try very hard to get the point of "think with your own head" through. Clearly many people here this is dangerous idea and I will try to refrain myself from suggesting it again.

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant"
Richard Milhous Nixon

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

I have not filled out my profile for the exact reason I stated before: people tend to connect jump numbers and skill in a linear fashion based on averages.

The reason you fill out your profile is so others know your experience and how seriously to take advice from you.

Yes, there are some here that may have more knowledge than jump numbers may indicate but that is the exception, not the rule. If you are the exception, then let the words you post prove it. So far you have not proven you are the exception.

Jump numbers and time in sport do count for something and many correct assumptions can be made by these two factors alone.

Unless of course, you have mad skillz!

[antonija 0]

I wanted to take time and link all my post in current thread explicitly detailing my lack of experience as canopy flier, but I don't think it would get through to you even if I did.

I hope OP did read my posts and will make a decision for himself.

P.S.: Forum signatures should always be put into context of every post, even if the signature itself is a quote from third person.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

P.S.: Forum signatures should always be put into context of every post, even if the signature itself is a quote from third person.

I would have thought it was obvious, but if you insist..

Quote

many people here this is dangerous idea and I will try to refrain myself from suggesting it again.

Bull Shit! What 'many people here' think is a dangerous idea (and which you just cannot seem to get into your head) is that it's a dangerous idea to encourage a newbie with only a handful of jumps to -

Quote

read my posts and will make a decision for himself.

- instead of listening to his instructors. Because that is exactly what you are doing, even if you don't intend to. All it takes is one of those 'That Guy's I referred to earlier.

People who are new to the sport cannot be expected to have the experience and knowledge necessary to make informed choices and decisions, whatever, they, me and you want to believe. There's just too much that we don't even know not knowing about.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

P.S.: Forum signatures should always be put into context of every post, even if the signature itself is a quote from third person.

Is that better?

[antonija 0]

Quote

Bull Shit! What 'many people here' think is a dangerous idea (and which you just cannot seem to get into your head) is that it's a dangerous idea to encourage a newbie with only a handful of jumps to -

Quote

read my posts and will make a decision for himself.

- instead of listening to his instructors.

Dude, just go back to first page and read my first post (might be second, I'm not 100% sure) in this thread.

EDIT: I'll make it easy for you, here is the first sentence of the first post I made in this thread:

Talk to your instructor.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[antonija 0]

Quote

Quote

P.S.: Forum signatures should always be put into context of every post, even if the signature itself is a quote from third person.

Is that better?

Some post are replies to other peoples posts, not yours.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne