lewmonst 0 #51 October 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteNot only did no one else in the plane mention that they could get a go around or simply ride down, it was from another team that this rule-bust was reported after the video had been submitted as the team video. Had the team taken the 0 for a total camera bust on that jump, they could have still scored in round 9 & 10. It's not anyone elses job, nor could anyone be expected to break from their "game mode" to advise another team on the ruls on jump run. The team made a mistake in not waiting for their 5th team member to be ready. I can understand that, it's a very busy time in the back of the plane on jump run. They just didn't think of riding down. The problem lies in that the KNEW they had ilegal video of the jump. I could see them going up and asking the judges if it might be permisible to submit the video, and would expect the judges to then say "No". Continu on with round ten and take the zero. But to just secretivly submit the video? That wasn't playing inside the spirit of the rules, and disqualification is the only answer I can see as being fit. I AM rather surprised the meet videographe agreed to any of this. Their job as I see it is simply to capture images of the meet, not to get involved in it. I agree completely. I didn't mean to sound like it was anyone else's responsibility or fault other than Carolina ICE. Sorry if I sounded like that. I also agree with Deuce it was a series of bad decisions caught up in the moment. I was most surprised to hear that the meet photography handed over the footage and allowed it to happen. It seems quite obvious to me that that would never be allowed.http://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #52 October 7, 2004 I had a chance to sit down and have a lengthly chat with Larry Bagley this afternoon. He is this year's Nat's USPA controller for this event. He informed me that when Alan competed at the World Air Games (World Cup for that year as well) as a guest in 2002 the IPC manual did -not- include those competitions in it's writing in exclusion towards our U.S. Nationals. Alan was in the clear in his interpretation. What Alan was informed of by his Israeli teammates -was- true. However, in this year's IPC manual (2004) the rule had been changed and the World Cup was listed. This change was not known by Alan and he, in good faith, registered as a non-guest team member. Had he known, or been informed of the change, he would have readily changed his status. No problem. As it was, the person who had discovered the change went to the judges first, and not Alan. Thus the trickle down effect and we have the story that people like to twist around. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #53 October 8, 2004 Quotewonders why they just didnt borrow a camera/helmet instead..... Would you loan your equipment to a guy that you don't know? The real question is why they didn't ride the plane down. The answer is that those guys were doing what they thought was the best answer...And it was. They had a video issue and they had a video guy that could film them. In MOST competitions (FSL,CaSL,SSL, Valentines Meet, Shamrock Showdown, Karp Cup..ect) that would have been fine. However since it was the Nationals it was not allowed. Shame really, Pete and the boys had no ill intent. They just got caught up in trying to make it happen. Still in the letter of the law they were wrong and Scott Smith did his job."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #54 October 8, 2004 QuoteKarm(a) will come back and bit those people big time. Some say Karma got them for taking a WORLD CLASS skydiver and putting him in Advanced in the first place. The USPA used to have a rule about that; they changed it against the majority of competitiors wishes to allow PC's. Its a shame that the were DQ'ed. I have had it happen to me. I think that was wrong. I don't think anyone on the team tried to pull a fast one and register illegally. They performed quite well and should be proud of the average they had. However, they did break the rules and Scott Smith ruled (rightfully) with a heavy hand in this case and against ICE. I have been told both that they knew they were illegal, and that it was a mistake. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I would have prefered both teams to have been allowed to change over to guest teams. I don't think anyone tried to pull off a lie."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #55 October 8, 2004 QuoteI don't think anyone tried to pull off a lie. Well, however sympathetic I am, they absolutely attempted to pull off a lie. They had their camera flier submit somebody else's video of thier skydive as if it was team video. That is why they were disqualified. I agree that there were extenuating circumstances, but I heard firsthand that the camera flier was asked "did you submit video that you did not shoot?" the truthful answer "yes" closed the case. Rule broken. I think the way they were subsequently treated was wrong. It was the equivalent of cutting their buttons off, and taught everybody a needless lesson. Just being taken out of competition was enough. Goose-egging all their scores was overkill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #56 October 8, 2004 Issue is that even with the 0's for the rest of the rounds it looked like ICE still might have been able to get a medal when all the Guest teams were taken out of it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyPrincess2002 0 #57 October 11, 2004 Another thought to all this mayhem over the video switch. What if this were the Olympics and a team or individual broke a rule and then tried to cover it up? I think if you do something wrong - admit it and take the consequences. Covering it up shows guilt and implies trying to cheat. Meet director made the right decision - as did the people that pointed out the mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #58 October 11, 2004 QuoteQuotewonders why they just didnt borrow a camera/helmet instead..... Would you loan your equipment to a guy that you don't know? at a national meet where i'm going to be all week and they are competitors... absolutely..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katiebear21 0 #59 October 12, 2004 QuoteI think if you do something wrong - admit it and take the consequences. Covering it up shows guilt and implies trying to cheat. Remember, none of us were there or walked in their shoes. I spoke with the camera guy this weekend. There was a lot of confusion and moving peices. Once the team realized that they screwed up, they were prepared to tell the judge and "give themselves up" but the judges already found out. Carolina ICE is a very good team, each person of high moral character, and they just suffered from not fully understanding the rules and making decisions too quickly. Katie Get your PMS glass necklace here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #60 October 12, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuotewonders why they just didnt borrow a camera/helmet instead..... Would you loan your equipment to a guy that you don't know? at a national meet where i'm going to be all week and they are competitors... absolutely.. Dude, there are four teams and four video fliers per load. The additional video personell included Mike McGowan (who was not on the affected load). Try and say this with me."Mike McGowan, can I borrow your cameras and helmet" Repeat that until reality sets in. I have a great demonstrated record of lending people my kit. Trading helmets when the green light comes on is taking things way outside even the extreme. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #61 October 12, 2004 QuoteWould you loan your equipment to a guy that you don't know? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- at a national meet where i'm going to be all week and they are competitors... absolutely.. ___________________________________________________ Noble, but unrealistic. I really want you on my loads at next years nationals however. But like duce said, I doubt most are going to be willing to do that."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
