Personal experience with a rigger

[d123 1]

Look out guys, don't believe only one rigger!
I got this new wings container that has some bad velcro and the reserve handle is finding it's way out of the velcro during free fall (belly). It happen 2wice. Brought it to a rigger and he goes to fix this it takes me 2 hours and the velcro is good enough to me, I've put it in and it stayed there. Reality doesn't agree with him.
So trust not your rigger, take you gear personally, use the rigger as a way to tech yourself things what you don't understand yet and do realize that there are more than 1 riggers out there and each one of them see things differently. Some of them are riggers for the wrong reasons like this one that I know. I will provide the name on PM request because I think the every one of us should be hold and told when we do something wrong so that we'll correct and make this a better world.

Regards,
Jean-Arthur Deda.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[councilman24 36]

Your english doesn't quite make it. Better than my french (none) but your complaint about your rigger doesn't make any since. It doesn't say what he did or didn't do that you didn't like.

Try again?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[d123 1]

I guess I'm just too angry Anyway, the velcro is not strong enough to hold the reserve handle in place during free fall. In 2 jumps, the reserve handle got out of the velcro (1).
I've brought my rig to a rigger in the hope that he'll fix the velcro. He took a look and then said that this kind of fix takes around 2 hours and the velcro seems strong enough to him so my rig in his eyes is safed to be jumped. But is not because of (1).

So don't trust the opinion of only one rigger.

Makes more sense now?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

I guess I'm just too angry Anyway, the velcro is not strong enough to hold the reserve handle in place during free fall. In 2 jumps, the reserve handle got out of the velcro (1).
I've brought my rig to a rigger in the hope that he'll fix the velcro. He took a look and then said that this kind of fix takes around 2 hours and the velcro seems strong enough to him so my rig in his eyes is safed to be jumped. But is not because of (1).

So don't trust the opinion of only one rigger.

Makes more sense now?

Hi d123,

Sorry you are having a bad experience with a rigger.

I want to be sure I understand your complaint.

I remember a few weeks ago you told us about your rig that has a bad habit of letting the reserve handle float out of the pocket.

You took it to a rigger, but he didn't find anything that would explain your problem.

So you now have your rig back, but he didn't do anything to fix it, at least partly because he didn't see anything wrong.

And you don't want to jump it because a floating ripcord is too dangerous, which is something that we folks on dz.com told you a few weeks ago.

Does that describe the situation?

How much did you describe your problem to him? Can you show him that it is easy to get the reserve handle out of the pocket without much effort?

Did he tell you there was anything you were doing that might explain your problem?

Not all riggers are the same, that is true. But I don't personally know any rigger who would intentionally tell you wrong information.

It sounds to me like there is a communication problem between you and your rigger - that he doesn't understand that you are having a serious problem with your rig.

The first step to solving the problem is to be sure he understands what your problem is. If you cannot do that, then you should find a different rigger.

[d123 1]

Hi RiggerPaul,

Everything you've said is true. Is very easy to extract the handle from the velcro even with the pinky finger. If I compare the strength needed to remove the handle from the velcro with the strength needed to do the same thing on my friends rig I'll aproximate that mine is like 20% of the normal strength (even compare with the one I had on my dolphin).

> Not all riggers are the same, that is true. But I don't personally know any rigger who would intentionally tell you wrong information.

And here is where I'm lost too. I can't make any sense of this experience.

> It sounds to me like there is a communication problem between you and your rigger - that he doesn't understand that you are having a serious problem with your rig.
Yes and no.
Yes because when I've left the rig at the DZ it was a busy day there (he's working in a tandem factory doing tandems) and I couldn't speak with him personally but I've shown to the main tandem packer (also a rigger but not a master rigger) how easy is to remove the handle.

No because my roomate (a good friend who I trust) went jumping to this DZ and he spoke with this rigger and *SHOW HIM* how easy is to remove the handle from the MLW. They've argued about this subject.

So the only way I can make sense of this story is to imagine that the rigger really thinks its safe to jump my rig and because we were newbies to rigging he thinks he's right and us wrong (which my be true, but then again 2 times in one day ... this didn't happen on my old dolphin). I will take my rig to another rigger and I will keep doing this until I get the same pulling strength as I had on my old dolphin or what my friends have on Javelin and Talon FX. I'm using my friends rigs as base line for the pulling strength. The only thing that I know in this moment is that I don't trust that rigger and I'll keep this lack of trust until I can find a way to explain his answer to me (I am wrong that strength is OK or he wanted to get rid of a problem that eats time and make more tandems).

Are there any regulations or guide lines regarding how big the pulling streght should be?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Hi RiggerPaul,

Everything you've said is true. Is very easy to extract the handle from the velcro even with the pinky finger. If I compare the strength needed to remove the handle from the velcro with the strength needed to do the same thing on my friends rig I'll aproximate that mine is like 20% of the normal strength (even compare with the one I had on my dolphin).

> Not all riggers are the same, that is true. But I don't personally know any rigger who would intentionally tell you wrong information.

And here is where I'm lost too. I can't make any sense of this experience.

> It sounds to me like there is a communication problem between you and your rigger - that he doesn't understand that you are having a serious problem with your rig.
Yes and no.
Yes because when I've left the rig at the DZ it was a busy day there (he's working in a tandem factory doing tandems) and I couldn't speak with him personally but I've shown to the main tandem packer (also a rigger but not a master rigger) how easy is to remove the handle.

No because my roomate (a good friend who I trust) went jumping to this DZ and he spoke with this rigger and *SHOW HIM* how easy is to remove the handle from the MLW. They've argued about this subject.

So the only way I can make sense of this story is to imagine that the rigger really thinks its safe to jump my rig and because we were newbies to rigging he thinks he's right and us wrong (which my be true, but then again 2 times in one day ... this didn't happen on my old dolphin). I will take my rig to another rigger and I will keep doing this until I get the same pulling strength as I had on my old dolphin or what my friends have on Javelin and Talon FX. I'm using my friends rigs as base line for the pulling strength. The only thing that I know in this moment is that I don't trust that rigger and I'll keep this lack of trust until I can find a way to explain his answer to me (I am wrong that strength is OK or he wanted to get rid of a problem that eats time and make more tandems).

Are there any regulations or guide lines regarding how big the pulling streght should be?

I am not aware of any regulation that concerns the force required to get the handle out of the pocket.

But I don't know everything either.

Maybe Terry (councilman24) knows something about this that I do not.

I have a question.

In my experience, the stitching at the top and bottom of the pocket for the reserve ripcord handle should hold the handle pretty tightly all by itself, even if the velcro was not very strong. I don't mean it is enough to keep the handle secure. But you should have to push a bit to get the handle in the pocket.

Is this true on your rig?

Or is the pocket itself quite loose in the first place?

If the pocket is loose, maybe that at least part of the problem.

If I recall, you said this is a new Wings? If that is true, you should contact the manufacturer and your dealer to see if they can help.

[d123 1]

> But you should have to push a bit to get the handle in the pocket.

Not at all. It slides in really easy. I'll try on my friends rig. Thank you RiggerPaul
> you should contact the manufacturer and your dealer to see if they can help.
That's the thing I've tried to avoid thinking that is going to take too much time. Funny how life showed me that shortcuts are not really working.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[riggerpaul 1]

You know, I should have asked. I don't really think this is going to be helpful, but I should ask to be completely sure.

The reserve handle is a bit tapered. The cable goes through a hole in the top of the handle. The top and bottom of the handles join two side, one of which is a bit longer than the other.

It is the long side of the handle that should be put in the pocket.

You are putting the long side of the handle in the pocket, aren't you?

If not, turn it around and see if it fits better.

[airdvr 200]

Quote

turn it around and see if it fits better.

Tell me it's not true!

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[dks13827 3]

Yes, call the manufacturer........ and go to new rigger !!

[RiggerLee 61]

Just a couple of thoughts on what might be wrong.
Handle problems can show up from other reasons then just the velcro. If it's a new rig then the velcro can't really be worn out. He may have pulled the handle out looked at the velcro and seen the it was in good shape.
Some of the other isues that can be a problem are the geometry. If the horizontal is too short you may be getting a bend in the MLW pushing the handle out of the pocket and this might not show up unless you were there wearing it. Even then you might have to bend in the right way. If the MLW is short relative to the handle putting the top of the pocket just above a junction it can exagerate this problem.
Ths is going to sound strange but if the pocket is too tight it can make it diffacult to get full contact on the velcro. Some rigs use a sepperat peace of tape to help with this. If the pocket has a little outward taper to it tightness might not be as big a help as you would think. Guess what. I've seen rigs that the handle just didn't want to stay in and some times I just flat out could not figure out why.
I'll tell you one thing you can try that almost always works. Get a pud. You can argue the merrits back and forth but matching velcro to velcro is pretty damn secure.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[riggerpaul 1]

Thanks Lee!

All great things to think about and check.

I appreciate the help. I am sure d123 does too.

-paul

[d123 1]

Hi Everybody
You're right on the money (but not with the reverse handle - Only one side of the velcro is sewed to the MLW the other one is free (check the attachment).

I do understand that a chain of events lead to this situation and more than one persons are involved in this chain and I judge all those persons in this chain as I judge myself : "Errare humanum est" to make mistakes is human because I've made my share of mistakes in this life too but I never choose to be blind myself to them when they've been presented to be errors.

The chain:
1. Manufacturer did the error. And this is only an error (think unintended) and I can understand it.
2. The dealer didn't notice it. Well, honestly I've used the dealer as dealer service and not as a rigger. This dealer is a good person (easy to work with) with a lot of things going in his life, I can understand him not noticing the thingy.
3. The rigger who put together the rig didn't notice it. Same thing, it was an error (which I've encourage somehow by insisting to do it now, now, now) that was not intended because his intentions were honest. I realize this because the moment I've told him about the problem he turned angry on himself and grounded me.
4. Me because I didn't care that much about it but when people told me that this is important and why I took action.
5. The MASTER RIGGER who choose to tell a LIE. This one I can't understand nor accept. If he would have said man fuck off, I don't care and find yourself another rigger to help yourself with this one I would made sense of him as being an asshole and that's it. But he choose to hide himself behind something he knows is not true = saying that the rig is safe to be jumped when we've pointed out that is not and I can't accept this. I can't accept that is *normal* to peel of the velcro with the little finger from the left hand!

Am I exaggerating this one?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[JohnDeere 0]

Yea I dont think I would trust that Rigger ever! If he told you nothing was wrong with that..... then

A. he never lookled at it.

B. He dont give a shit.

I would find another rigger!

Contact Wing's and see if they will pay a local rigger to fix it so you dont have to send it back.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[riggerpaul 1]

Actually, I don't think you are describing an error.

The Wings container has 2 layers of webbing that form the main lift web. The pocket for the reserve handle is just a gap in the sewing that holds the two layers of webbing together.

Inside the pocket, one side of the Velcro, I think it is the hook, is sewn to the back of the front layer of webbing of the main lift web.

The Velcro loop is on a separate flap of a lighter webbing.

This flap of lighter webbing is only sewn into the back of the pocket between the two layers of the main lift web. So this flap of lighter webbing is supposed to be free on 3 sides. The Velcro that is attached to the separate flap should be sewn all around its edge to secure it to the separate flap.

This configuration is the one Lee mentioned when he said "Some rigs use a separate piece of tape to help with this."

When you put the handle into the pocket, you must take care to open the Velcro and then put the handle between the Velcro and close the Velcro. Otherwise the Velco is not securing the handle at all.

If this is the configuration of the Velcro in the reserve handle pocket, it is not an error. It is the way all Wings are built.

-paul

[councilman24 36]

I'm not so sure what your showing in your photo is wrong.

It's a little tough to be sure what I'm seeing. And I don't have a wings handy to look at and haven't done one in a year. But it looks like the pile velcro shown in the photo is sewn to a piece of lighter webbing that is then sewn in at the top and the bottom. IF the pile is sewn to a piece of webbing then it is done right and not an error. One of the above posters mention this. The pile is sewn to the extra webbing sandwiched between the main lift webs and floating so that it can fully contact the pile without the tension on the main lift web tending to pull it apart. In other words it is a velcro pocket that is supposed to be loose from but inbetween the main lift webs. More or less. One side is on the lift webbing.

I THINK that's what I'm seeing. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It may be that your not getting the handle fully behind the pile velcro and trying to sandwich it in the middle. Or the top and bottom of the pocket is not letting you get the handle fully back. It's hard to tell.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

Great minds think alike. But you must ahve started typing before me.

The tip off is the red ID thread in the edge of the lighter webbing the velcro is sewn to. Especially when I don't do a lot of Wings and haven't see one in many months.

There still may be a geometry problem pulling it out but I have to say I'm leaning toward operator error.

It SHOULD be more than pinky to pull it out and it shouldn't float, but it looks like it's built right and the velcro can't be worn out. But there is no spec on the minimum force to remove the ripcord from the pocket. Many reserve ripcords take TOO much force to remove them. Not that there is a spec beyond the 22lbs in the U.S. But a lot of people, and especially instructors with students, run their fingers over the pocket velcro to insure that it's mated before each jump. This makes that velcro joint the strongest that it can be by constantly being squeezed together and can make some RC's harder to pull than they should be.

Find an experienced rigger to sit down with you and work with it. See if you can get it right. Put the harness on, lay on the floor and arch hard, and or hang it up and hang in it. It might be that you are squeezing the lift webs together but that isn't actually matching up and mating the velcro.

I think you've accused the factory and at least two riggers of errors they didn't make. They may not have found the problem. But they didn't ignore an error that you think you found.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[mark 104]

Quote

Yeah, I don't think I would trust that rigger ever! If he told you nothing was wrong with that..... then

A. he never looked at it.

B. He doesn't give a shit.

I would find another rigger!

Contact Wings and see if they will pay a local rigger to fix it so you don't have to send it back.

I'm a rigger. I'm not so familiar with Wings containers that I could tell from the photo whether there is a problem with the pocket design, the pocket manufacture, or something else -- or even if there is anything wrong at all. I don't think I'd be able to pass judgment without either seeing another Wings container with a similar date of manufacture, or talking with the folks at Sunrise/Wings, or preferably both.

Based on the OP's posts, if he were my customer, I would seriously consider offering him my free service.

Mark

[d123 1]

OK, I see, the free fabric is there by design.
For me, this doesn't change the fact the the expected behavior (secure the reserve handle) is not there. I mean even if everything is OK according to the manual/design but it doesn't do what was suppose to do there's still a problem (an error), right?

If the next rigger tells me this is OK according to the design so there's nothing he can do, I will put an elastic band around the MLW and reserve handle, paint it in ways that makes it hard to be noticed and jump it like that. I will make sure that the elastic band breaks at forces close to what is needed on Javelin and I'll prefer my ugly rigging than an official approved rigging that doesn't work.

Anyway, maybe my logic has flaws but ... thanks for listening and thanks for the advices.

Edit to add a section of the rc pocket:
Black MLW
Blue Velcro
Orange Extra web
Green reserve handle - around 1 cm diameter, low profile reserve handle.

Only with velcro on velcro the force needed to peel the velcro is the same as on the cutaway handle. When I put the handle inside (all the way inside) the force needed to detach the reserve handle when pulled from the lower part is significantly lower than when pulled from the higher part. Maybe the handle is the problem?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[mark 104]

Quote

OK, I see, the free fabric is there by design.
For me, this doesn't change the fact the the expected behavior (secure the reserve handle) is not there. I mean even if everything is OK according to the manual/design but it doesn't do what was suppose to do there's still a problem (an error), right?

If the next rigger tells me this is OK according to the design so there's nothing he can do, I will put an elastic band around the MLW and reserve handle, paint it in ways that makes it hard to be noticed and jump it like that. I will make sure that the elastic band breaks at forces close to what is needed on Javelin and I'll prefer my ugly rigging than an official approved rigging that doesn't work.

Anyway, maybe my logic has flaws but ... thanks for listening and thanks for the advices.

Get video.

Mark

[d123 1]

Great Idea, I'll do this tomorrow

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[koppel 3]

hiya d123

not sure if you have got the answer yet but here you go.

The problem is not really a problem. I am a Wings dealer and one of the points that I make sure I explain to all new Wings owners is how to check that the reserve handle is in place and secured properly.

There is a piece of Hook Velcro stitched onto the Main Lift Web and there is a piece of Type XII webbing that has the Pile stitched to it. This piece of webbing is stitched along one side so that it can lift and allow the handle to be placed between the Hook and Pile.

It is important on each jump to stick your finger inside and feel that you can't feel metal but only webbing. I have known people to hvae their rigs moved or handled and the reserve handle to come out and said person places handle back in without knowing about the flap system and the handle is then not secure and will indeed come out very easily.

The benefit of this system is that there is less chance of the handle being extracted or pushed out by flexing of the MLW.

Of course the draw-back of the system is that it is not the 'same' as all other systems.

hope that helps

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[councilman24 36]

Quote

If the next rigger tells me this is OK according to the design so there's nothing he can do, I will put an elastic band around the MLW and reserve handle, paint it in ways that makes it hard to be noticed and jump it like that. I will make sure that the elastic band breaks at forces close to what is needed on Javelin and I'll prefer my ugly rigging than an official approved rigging that doesn't work.

DO NOT DO THIS! This is about the worst idea I've every heard of. Field rigging by someone with less than 150 jumps is a sure way to die. The design is fine. The contruction might be in error, but right now I doubt it. I'm still not sure that you understand how it works. If it truely is constructed wrong send it back to Sunrise to get it fixed.

Quote

Only with velcro on velcro the force needed to peel the velcro is the same as on the cutaway handle. When I put the handle inside (all the way inside) the force needed to detach the reserve handle when pulled from the lower part is significantly lower than when pulled from the higher part. Maybe the handle is the problem?

Your reserve SHOULD be easier to pull than your cutaway handle if they have equal surface area of velcro. Trying to simply pull the cutaway handle off loads the velcro in shear. This is it's strongest mode. That's why PEELING the velcro and then pulling the cables is often recommended. On the reserve side the reserve handle acts as a very dull knife to split the velcro in peel mode. The difference in pulling higher from lower may be the geometry of the stitching at the top and bottom or the pocket.

You ripcord shouldn't float! But don't wrap something else around it!!! Get in front of an experienced rigger with you and the rig and figure out either whats wrong with the rig or what's wrong with how your using it.

Or don't take my advice and I'll wait for the fatality report.

I still think you owe a couple of people an appology for accusing them of ignoring a non-existent construction error.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[d123 1]

Hi Terry,

I will not do that I will make a movie that will show my procedure and my problem but not today because I want to do some tunnel after work. Tomorrow evening it should be ready.

But, Thank you for taking the time to reply to me man, I really appreciate this and this thank you goes to everybody who choose to help me in any way possible
Regards,
Jean-Arthur Deda.

Edit to add:
> I still think you owe a couple of people an appology for accusing them of ignoring a non-existent construction error.Unimpressed

Appologies for accusing them for not noticing a non existing error.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[councilman24 36]

You keep scaring me like that and I'll keep replying.

PM user riggerrob on here. He is a very experienced Canadian (and US) rigger. I don't think he is in your area but he may be able to recommend someone in your area to figure out what is wrong.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE