Canopy down sizing

[g3ninfinite 0]

First and foremost, I understand that canopy sizes are dictated by skill and training before jump numbers.

Heres where Im at... Im at 19 jumps, gonna grab that A license within the next 2-3 weeks.

i can foresee myself hitting 75-85 jumps before years end.

I would like my first rig to be a micron with a 170 storm/spectre. Realizing that container would require me to field a 143 PD Op RES reserve I beckon the question...


Typically how soon does the average joe jump a setup like that? FWIW my weight is around 165

I'm stuck on the micron because A it looks awesome. I love the container pattern. I can get it with ALL the bells and whistles I'd like.

What I'd like to do is order the custom rig in about 2 months all the while renting gear and 2-3 months after that(or whenever I feel its safe) start jumping her.

[Chubba 0]

143 reserve at your weight would be too small at low jumper numbers.

Why not order a larger container and get a reserve that's loaded more lightly?

Is 165 your bodyweight or exit weight?

[AggieDave 6]

Your wingloading on your reserve would be 1.36 or so. That is a wingloading that should be reserved for someone with 300-400 jumps or more. That's only if you want to load your reserve that high!

Imagine this, you just had your first cutaway. You had a line over that had you spinning violently and you get your cutaway handle pulled about 1900ft, after a couple of revolutions. Lets say you're not under your reserve about 1500ft. You stow your cutaway handle and then pop the toggles on your reserve, you're at 1400ft. You're at 1400ft off the DZ, since you weren't able to fly back to the landing area. So now you've got 1400ft to decide if you can get over the high tension power lines to a nice cow pasture, or if you can make that person's back yard. During that time you were trying to decide, you've flown further down wind, you're now at 1000ft and you HAVE to go for the small back yard. Have you noticed you haven't even had a chance to do any practice flares on the new canopy that doesn't fly like any canopy you've ever jumped? Have you remembered that you're also under a canopy that loaded MUCH higher than you have ever jumped?

You realize that and do a couple of practice flares and you're now at 600ft and you're looking at trees and power lines, so you now have to turn nearly 180 degrees from your previous heading to miss those obstacles. You've turned and found a small piece of land next to some guy's garage that doesn't look like it has powerlines or a fence. You flare, but you never quite figured the flare out and you pound in HARD.

So yup, buy that 143 reserve...

Or do you have enough jumps and enough reserve rides that you can make the decision to load a reserve that high?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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I understand that canopy sizes are dictated by skill and training before jump numbers.

By the way, skill is typically dependent on jump numbers. If you don't agree, there are MANY examples of people who had the "skills" to jump higher than recommended wingloadings. I'd ask you to talk to all of them, but a significant number of them are dead.

Get coaching, get knowledge and get jump experience before you get wingloading.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skybytch 259]

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I'm stuck on the micron because A it looks awesome. I love the container pattern. I can get it with ALL the bells and whistles I'd like.

Fashion is way more important than having a reserve sized so you can safely land it in the worst possible conditions...

Buy something that will fit a reserve sized such that YOU can fly and land it safely on your next jump. Don't count on your first reserve ride coming after you've gained the skill needed to safely land an F111 7 cell loaded at over 1.0 body weight. Don't assume that because someone else survived doing the same thing you want to do, you will also survive. Don't count on doing a particular number of jumps by the time your custom rig arrives; shit happens and you may not get those jumps in.

In other words, get something sized for an Optimum 160 instead. Your ego will survive having to jump a larger container. Really it will.

[Blink 0]

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I would like my first rig to be a micron with a 170 storm/spectre. Realizing that container would require me to field a 143 PD Op RES reserve

I'm stuck on the micron because A it looks awesome. I love the container pattern. I can get it with ALL the bells and whistles I'd like.

1) The largest Micron is sized for 150 main (full fitting) and a 143/160 Op. reserve (standard fitting). Stuffing a main in a container too small will not only be a bitch to pack, but can put unwanted strain on the container and stitching. The V348 would be a great alternative, it will hold the Spectre 170 (full fitting) and a PDR160/OP176 (standard fitting).

V310:
Width A: 10
Width B: 11
Length: 17.5
Thick: 5.5

V348:
Width A: 10
Width B: 12
Length: 19
Thick: 5

If you think 1" on the bottom width and 1.5" on the length is going to make a difference on your cool factor, it's not.

2) Why not get a Vector3? They're identical to Micron's aside from an inch here or there, and they have all the same bells and wistles. They come in any color pattern the Microns do.

[JohnDeere 0]

Blink said

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2) Why not get a Vector3? They're identical to Micron's aside from an inch here or there, and they have all the same bells and wistles. They come in any color pattern the Microns do.

+1 I have a v348 that holds up to a sabre 2 170 and a pdr160. Or you could get a optimum 176 in there. Get the biggest reserve you can! I have yet to meet anybody that sat under there researve thinking "damn i wish this thing was smaller". Be safe have fun!

Edit to add i posted this before Blink edited his post and said what i said......... so im not a complete dumb ass!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[g3ninfinite 0]

I thought I made it clear that I would not jump the rig until I thought it was safe...(been under similar canopies).

In any event. I've read that a 170 will fit in the micron, so if that is true and a PD 160 OP can fit... are those similar enough to run?

My standing weight is 165 should be down to about 155-160 by nov.

I don't want you guys to think I'm just going to buy this and wish good luck to everyone. My main question is in 5 months with another 70-80 jumps can i conceivably downsize from the current 230 to a 170 with from what I understand now, a 160 op res?

[g3ninfinite 0]

Quote

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I would like my first rig to be a micron with a 170 storm/spectre. Realizing that container would require me to field a 143 PD Op RES reserve

I'm stuck on the micron because A it looks awesome. I love the container pattern. I can get it with ALL the bells and whistles I'd like.

1) The largest Micron is sized for 150 main (full fitting) and a 143/160 Op. reserve (standard fitting). Stuffing a main in a container too small will not only be a bitch to pack, but can put unwanted strain on the container and stitching. The V348 would be a great alternative, it will hold the Spectre 170 (full fitting) and a PDR160/OP176 (standard fitting).

V310:
Width A: 10
Width B: 11
Length: 17.5
Thick: 5.5

V348:
Width A: 10
Width B: 12
Length: 19
Thick: 5

If you think 1" on the bottom width and 1.5" on the length is going to make a difference on your cool factor, it's not.

2) Why not get a Vector3? They're identical to Micron's aside from an inch here or there, and they have all the same bells and wistles. They come in any color pattern the Microns do.

Thanks for this.

[AggieDave 6]

You'd still be at about 100 jumps for a reserve loaded at nearly 1.4:1. That is not a smart idea, please refer back to my previously posted scenario.

Then again, what do I know about flying a canopy with some wingloading or even flying a highly loaded reserve?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skybytch 259]

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My main question is in 5 months with another 70-80 jumps can i conceivably downsize from the current 230 to a 170 with from what I understand now, a 160 op res?

That's a question that no one here can answer - we haven't seen you fly a parachute. None of your instructors who have seen you fly and land a parachute can really answer it either. Only you can, and it's not a question that you can answer now.

Whether you can (or more importantly, should) jump that combo in a few months depends on a number of factors - if you get that many jumps in, if you lose that weight instead of gaining some, if you have no issues with and spend time working on canopy control or if you point it toward the dz and hope, if you put a jump on a 170 and discover that it's scary...

The more conservative, less likely to help create pain path would be to buy something to fit a 190 main and a 170-ish reserve, something that you can get within a month or so. Used is good. Put 75-100 jumps on the 190, learning everything you can, then sell it and buy a 170. Put a couple hundred jumps on that, learning everything you can, then sell it all and buy the rig of your dreams.

By then, the rig of your dreams is more likely to remain looking purty too.

[skybytch 259]

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Then again, what do I know about flying a canopy with some wingloading or even flying a highly loaded reserve?

I seem to recall that you thought you knew quite a bit at 200 jumps...

[AggieDave 6]

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I seem to recall that you thought you knew quite a bit at 200 jumps...

Yup and as I've said before, I was wrong. It has been a long road to where I am now, but having accomplished some of my goals and learned what I have, I try to help others from making the same mistakes. That's one reason why I'm so passionate about canopy flight, teaching canopy flight and helping low time jumpers.

So I know where this kid is coming from, but I also know what its like to jump highly loaded canopies. I also know what its like jumping highly loaded reserves. That's why I'm trying so hard to get my point across to this kid.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

Here's a few tips for buying skydiving equiment.

1. Never, ever, ever order anything based on the skill you think you will have when it arrives, or the weight you think you'll be at when it arrives.

Only buy things that you are currently qualified to jump, or that fit you at your current weight. Doing otherwise is sure way to make a costly mistake.

2. Never, ever, ever buy any container that your canopies are the biggest the manufacturer says will fit. The manufacturers lie like crazy about what you can stuff into a certian sized container, and you're going to put yourself in a world of hurt if you believe what they say. This is twice as important if you intend to buy a brand new canopy.

Size a container so the first size canopy you intend to install is in the middle of the range that will fit.

3. Trying to buy a small rig is retarded. Buy what will comfortably hold canopies sized to match your current level of experince.

Here's the truth, nobody notices what size your container is. The exception to this might be another male, low time jumper. If you're trying to impress the other new guys at the DZ, great. If not, the small rig is silly.

If you do jump a small rig, and can barely land the canopy, it looks really bad. Any cool points your container had are lost because you can't fly the parachutes. You can jump a rig that looks like it belongs to an experienced jumper, but you can't make yourself perform like an experienced jumper, so what's the point.

Not to mention, a nice new, compact rig covered in grass stains? How is that going to look.

Why not slow down a notch, and look for a used rig with a 190 main and 190ish reserve? You could score a complete used rig, nice modern stuff, for the price of a decked out Micron. Put 100 jumps on it, and then see how you feel about your equipment choices.

Another nice part is that you could have a used rig together in a week or two, and not have to rent gear. There's no better way get more out of your jumps then to have your own rig with a properly fitting harness.

[g3ninfinite 0]

Not a Kid here, but whatever that point is moot. Im not concerned with looking experienced and or having a small rig... I was under the impression that the cut of the micron panels was exclusive to the micron but blink has saved my day and shown me that the same cut is available in a v3 m series. I only prefer to buy new. thanks everyone.

[pinkfairy 0]

Hi!

It sounds like you are a quite "standard" size and will easily find used gear that will fit you. If you do that, you'll save a lot of money that you can use on more jumps.

I'm a really odd size, (small, small girl), and ordered new only because I wasn't comfortable with the 126 reserve that sat in the few rigs that fit me when I was a beginner. But that's me and my priorities. No point in carrying around a reserve that you're afraid to use. I did use that big reserve this year, it was bigger than my main, and it is a good feeling sitting under a reserve that feels like you'd be able to land it asleep.

Why only looking at Vector? Javelin, Mirage, Aerodyne, Wings, and many others make great gear. Have a look at the Aerodyne Smart reserve too, great flare and lands well.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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I thought I made it clear that I would not jump the rig until I thought it was safe...(been under similar canopies).

What you "think" is safe is completely irrelevant. Nobody jumps a canopy that they think is going to kill them. Lots and lots of folks have been injured or killed jumping canopies that they "thought" were safe for them despite the opinions of experts.

Here is a little reading on this topic for you:

This one is GREAT because it simply asks you to DEMONSTRATE your readiness for a small canopy.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

This one is excellent as well:

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[brettski74 0]

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I only prefer to buy new.

Why? Used gear is a much better choice for your first rig.

The wait time for a harness/container system from UPT is currently 9 weeks. At times it's been much higher than this. Other manufacturers have varying delivery times, but expect a couple of months at least. Used gear is ready to go now. Assuming that you're in a rush, you could have gear shipped to you overnight for a few hundred dollars if you're in that much of a rush.

New gear will set you back in excess of US$6000 for a complete system including AAD. You should be able to find decent used gear for half that price. Your profile doesn't tell me where you're from, but assuming you're in the US and can jump for something like $25, that's 120 more jumps worth.

While you're waiting for your new gear, you'll probably have to rent, which in many places will double the cost of your jumps while you wait as compared to the cost of your jumping if you bought new gear right now.

When it comes time to sell your gear, providing you've looked after it, you'll get a good chunk of your money back from used gear, whereas if you're selling new gear, even though it's newer, you'll be competing in a market where there's a lot of other used gear in good condition. You can probably get a higher price for a newer rig, but you'll probably take a hit on the resale in order to compete with the other used gear on the market.

Being new, you'll probably go through one or two downsizes in the first 300-400 jumps and then possibly settle on something for a while longer. You'll get fairly limited value out of a new canopy that you only put 100 jumps on.

If you've got oodles of money and losing US$6000-7000 is nothing to you, then by all means, go ahead and buy your first rig brand new, but if not, there are a helluva lot of reasons why a lot of people will suggest that you check out used gear for your first rig and save yourself a bunch of moeny to spend on extra jumps, coaching and tunnel time.

[davelepka 4]

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Not a Kid here, but whatever that point is moot

Hey friend, I never made any reference to your age.

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I was under the impression that the cut of the micron panels was exclusive to the micron but blink has saved my day and shown me that the same cut is available in a v3 m series

What panels are you talking about? You seem to place alot of importance on something I've never heard of.

If you're talking about cut-in laterals, those are available on several types of rigs, and have been for years.

Others have already made some good points about starting off with a used rig. One additional point it that you can spend $3000 on a used rig, and when you're ready for another rig in 2 years, sell if for probably $2800.

In two years your $6000 new rig will be worth $4000.

A used canopy you can get for $1000 will be FAR easier to pack, and when you want to sell it in a year, it will be worth $900.

A new canopy will run $2000, be VERY hard to pack, and in a year will be worth $1500.

The $6000 rig is best suited to a jumper who had a few hundered jumps, and a good idea of what they want in a rig, and will have it for a good number of years without needing to make any changes to the system. By the time they're through with it, the wear and tear has far exceeded the depreciation of making a new rig a used rig.

If you factor in the money you're going to lose downsizing from your first rig in a year or two, plus the cost of renting gear while you wait for your gir to be built, you could almost pay for a used rig with the money you'll be giving up.

[timmyfitz 0]

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Not a Kid here, but whatever that point is moot. Im not concerned with looking experienced and or having a small rig... I was under the impression that the cut of the micron panels was exclusive to the micron but blink has saved my day and shown me that the same cut is available in a v3 m series. I only prefer to buy new. thanks everyone.

It sounds like you have already decided what you are going to do and came here hoping someone would agree with your decision. You have probably already heard advice similar to what you are getting here, from people at your DZ, but they didn't give you the answer you were looking for either. Good luck.

[g3ninfinite 0]

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Not a Kid here, but whatever that point is moot. Im not concerned with looking experienced and or having a small rig... I was under the impression that the cut of the micron panels was exclusive to the micron but blink has saved my day and shown me that the same cut is available in a v3 m series. I only prefer to buy new. thanks everyone.

It sounds like you have already decided what you are going to do and came here hoping someone would agree with your decision. You have probably already heard advice similar to what you are getting here, from people at your DZ, but they didn't give you the answer you were looking for either. Good luck.

actually im doing something entirely different, thanks to blink. gonna rent and get down to 190 then 170 and when the time is right jump on that v348 with a 170 storm and 176 op

[brettski74 0]

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actually im doing something entirely different, thanks to blink. gonna rent and get down to 190 then 170 and when the time is right jump on that v348 with a 170 storm and 176 op

I'm sure that this sounds like a perfectly good plan to you, and I'm not saying it's a bad plan, but it's certainly not the best plan. With your proposed plan, either one of two things will happen. You'll either rush to downsize so that you can save money on rental fees, or you'll spend more money in rental fees than it would have cost you to buy a complete system with a 190 main, and if you bought that complete system and looked after it, you should be able to recoup 90% of that money when you sell it to the next person. Rental fees you will never recoup and depending on where you jump and what is included in the gear rental, you may not pack the rental gear, either, so you'll be missing out on the potential gear knowledge from packing your own gear for those jumps.

The other point I would make is that for someone with 19 jumps and very little experience with different gear, you seem very set on a container that you've probably never jumped or packed and on a canopy that I'm sure you've never flown. Couple that with the fact that you very likely know little about the sport at this stage or what you really want to do. For most people at 19 jumps, they don't know what they like or what's possible in the sport, so they don't start developing a really good picture of where they want to go until they've done a couple hundred jumps and figured out that there here to stay, at least for a while.

A 190 square foot square or lightly tapered canopy like a Sabre2, Safire2, Pilot, Spectre or Storm would be a great first canopy for you. Buy one used. Put a couple hundred jumps on it. In the meantime, you're learning about the sport, about gear, about why you might want to choose one canopy or container system over another and how that might fit into the goals you start to develop in the sport. As has been said, you can probably pick up a good complete system for somewhere in the $3000 dollar range and when you're done, sell it for, at worst, $2500, although probably more like $2700-2900.

Alternatively, you can disregard the advice of a number of people who've been there and done that and spend a bunch more money doing your own thing and learning less in the process.

[JackC 0]

It is interesting to note that according to Paragear, a PD143R is actually 151sq ft and a RD160R is actually 175sqft. But then a Sabre 170 is actually 179sqft.

So at an exit weight of 165+30=195lbs your wing loading would be:
1.09 on a Sabre 170
1.11 on a PD160R
1.29 on a PD143R

But these numbers of course depend on which method you use to determine canopy square footage because there are several and it can easily make a 0.1 difference in your wingloading calculation.

Then you have the elevation of the DZ you jump at where you lose about 4% performance for every 1000ft above sea level it is. So 2500ft could be the equivalent of another 0.1 on your wingloading. And then there's the temperature which affects air density and therefore performance and so on.

So you might be able to shave a hundred jumps off the flame threshold on this website by simply picking the actual sqft as opposed to the name of the canopy. Or you might have to add a hundred to correct for elevation and temperature. It makes you wonder if the whole wing loading verses jump number thing is just a bit over egged really.

http://www.paragear.com/canopyspecs/canopysizing.PDF

[AggieDave 6]

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It is interesting to note that according to Paragear, a PD143R is actually 151sq ft and a RD160R is actually 175sqft. But then a Sabre 170 is actually 179sqft.

You figure wingloading for the the canopy as the size the manufacture lists the canopy. Typically the only generally accepted exception to this are some of the earlier Icarus canopies that were actually 15% smaller than listed. The debate in regards to which measuring method is the "true" method is a long one and has been debated long and hard before.

If someone has to justify their wingloading by stating that a PDr143 is really a 151, then they really shouldn't have been at that wingloading in the first place.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Blink 0]

Just thought I should point out as others have wrongfully pointed out, that the OP has not stated anything about purchasing new canopies. He is simply currently talking about a Vector/Micron. Although everyone is touting "buy used" there is no need of it. I'm sure he had been told, and has read, and has the common sense that used = cheaper.

If the OP has the money, a custom fit, properly sized container could last him for a long time. I've had my first container for 400 jumps and should have it for a while yet, I don't know why everyone says after 100 jumps you'll want/need a new container.

Nice to see you're taking some advice, good luck :)