Double Stowing Question

[glgflyer 0]

This is going to be a pretty long post so please bear with me. I recently bought a pilot 168 canopy with 725 spectra lines. This is the first micro line canopy I have owned. Therefore, I am trying to figure out the proper line stowing technique to get proper tension. I currently use a large rubber band on the first locking stow and a small one on the second locking stow ( I only have 2 locking stows on my bag). Then I use small bands on all the non locking stows. The locking stows seem to have proper tension but all the rest seem to be very loose, even with the small rubber bands. I read a lot of the old forums concerning this subject and it seems that many people are saying that if you double wrap the rubber bands it is possible the lines won't release from the stow or that the rubber band won't break, causing a bag lock.
NOW, MY QUESTION: Since you only have ONE single wrap at the attachment point on the bag why would the rubber band be less apt to break with a double wrap than it would with a single wrap on the lines? In other words, no matter how many times you wrap the rubber band around the lines you still only have ONE wrap at the attachment point on the bag. An explanation would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[NiteQwill 0]

Because a band tends to break above the attachment point, not AT the attachment point.

With that said, I double stow all my locking stows and other stows. I too use Spectra line. Most people I've jumped with do the same, as well as the packers at my DZ (unless they use the black bands).

When I run out, I will probably buy smaller mil-spec bands and single stow and see how it works from there.

"Fail, fail again. Fail better."
-Samuel Beckett

[kingbunky 3]

not answering your question, but a comment on your setup. you said that your first locking stow is a big band, and the second is a small one? i was always told that the locking stows should match. if they match all the others, great, if not, no big deal, but they should match each other. you want even tension on them!

if you read the other thread about the magnetic closure d-bag, you'll get a lot of info about the subject. basically, the locking stows are important, the rest don't matter as much.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[davelepka 4]

Here's the deal - locking stows can be double wrapped, but I don't do it. What size band you use for your locking stows will depend on how tight your canopy is in your bag. If the bag is stuffed full, then the stow and the grommet won't be that close, so you can use a bigger rubber band and stil lhave good tension. If the bag is larger and the grommet reaches all the way to the stow band, then you'll need a little rubber band to do the job.

The rest of the stows are up to you. I prefer to use a larger band and double wrap the stows. It's worked well for me for a long time, but in all fiarness, there are 100 different ways to pack, and they all work.

A word on the stows, all they really need to do is hold the lines place during the pack job and deployment. As long as they are secure, the exact tension is not that important.

Case in point is the new generation of bags that have no stow bands. There are locking stows to close the bag, and the rest of the lines are neatly folded in a pouch on the bag. As the bag is lifted by the PC, the lines simpy play out of the pouch with no tension on the lines at all.

If your pack job is solid, and the slider is all the way to the stops and split four ways, the tension on your stow bands will not effect your opening. As long as they keep the lines organized and in place during the pack job, that's good enough.

[glgflyer 0]

Thanks for the comment kingbunky. I had a rigger once tell me that usually the first locking stow is tighter than the second one. He said this is the way he does it to achieve the same tension on both stows so I just started doing it that way. But now I'm going to take another look at it after hearing what you just told me. Thanks.

[glgflyer 0]

Thanks for the comment NiteQwill. But I still don't understand why. Between the attachment point and the point where the rubber band is wrapped around the lines there are just 2 single strands of rubber band no matter how many times it is wrapped around the lines. Let's take this example: Attach a new rubber band to your deployment bag. Then stand on the bag to hold it to the floor. Stick your finger in the band and pull till it breaks. Attach another new rubber band. Now stick your finger in the band but this time double wrap it around your finger. Pull till it breaks. It just seems to me that it should take exactly the same force to break both these bands. But please understand that I CERTAINLY don't know this to be true. That is why I posted this so hopefully someone who knows can answer it for me. Again, thanks for your post and feel free to elaborate on it further.

[NiteQwill 0]

Have you ever seen a band break at the attachment point? Generally, the band is pulled so tight against the attachment point from multiple packings that it tends to lose the stretch at at the point. Now pack multiple times (double or single stowing), friction and wear from the lines and packing weaken the the band to the point where the band actually breaks away from the attachment point.

"Fail, fail again. Fail better."
-Samuel Beckett

[glgflyer 0]

That makes sense to me. Hopefully some others (maybe some riggers) will post and give some more insight on the subject. Again, thanks for your explanation.

[tsalnukt 1]

Line stows should be tight enough for you to pick up the D-bag by the lines and the stow should stay. if you single stow with a liittle rubber band and the stow fall out when you pick it up you should probably use big rubber bands and double stow. Line stows are meant to stage the opening and make opening less like a BASE canopy opening

[davelepka 4]

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Line stows are meant to stage the opening

No, they're not. The d-bag is there to stage the opening. The slider is there to stage the opening. The rubber bands are there to hold the lines in place until they are needed, and should have no effect on the speed of the deployment process.

If your lines stows are tight enough to slow the speed at which the bag is pulled to line stretch, then you are asking for line twists and a bag lock.

Again, I'll reference the new generation of deployment bags which feature two traditional locking stows, and a pouch in which the remainder of lines are neatly folded. As the bag is pulled away from the container, the lines play out of the stow pouch unrestricted.

Details of this type of bag can be found here, one thread up from this one -

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3642915;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

[FLJB 0]

I concur with this, i have always used large rubber bands on the first two stows (since those are the hardest to get around the bight of line) and small on all the rest and never double stow and have never had any problems with microline or vectran or HMA.

My non-locking stows are not anywhere near tight with a single wrap of a small rubber band and have not had any problems, i think double wrapping rubber bands is not good and don't understand why people do it.

I even put non-oil based silicone spray, like for cleaning cutaway handles, on my d-bag rubber bands, per the Poynter manual, which prevents them from breaking so often since they are softer than normal. (I haven't replaced a rubber band God knows how long) which is a bonus....

[erdnarob 1]

Your question maybe have no answer. Rubber bands behavior is so unpredictable that it is virtually impossible to know how to use them. I have tried all of them : ordinary rubber bands, tube stows, Silly bands made of silicone from Parasports, automotive O rings, surgical latex tubing, rubber bracelet, shock cord...they all break soon or later.
One important fact is : use the proper size for your lines and remember that the first 3-4 stows include the lines with their cascades (if you have cascades) while the rest of the lines have thinner stows then require smaller rubber bands.

I also notice that with my Sabre 2 (Spectra lines), I was a great consummer of ordinary rubber bands. Now with a Katana (HMA lines), ordinary rubber bands are good for I would say 15-20 jumps and more. I do not double them but use 2" long rubber bands for the first 4 stows and 1 1/4" for the rest. Line stows for 820 Spectra were 2" long and 1 1/2" long for 750 HMA which is thinner.
I hope that could help

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[BrianM 1]

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Line stows are meant to stage the opening

No, they're not. The d-bag is there to stage the opening. The slider is there to stage the opening. The rubber bands are there to hold the lines in place until they are needed, and should have no effect on the speed of the deployment process.

To stage the opening means, literally, to make it happen in stages. Rubber bands stage the opening (that's what you were talking about when you said they "hold the lines in place until they are needed).

Staging has nothing to do with controlling the speed of the opening - those are separate functions.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[LongWayToFall 0]

Well, I picture it more as the pilot chute being a stage, the canopy with slider up as a stage, and the canopy with the slider down as the final stage. Lots of things help with the stages.

Also, I think staging has TONS to do with the speed of the opening. Think about spacecraft recovery. The reason they stage the opening is for a survivable recovery. A 2 stage slider down base jump is much different than a 3 stage slider up jump....

Of course this is mostly a terminology debate......

[popsjumper 2]

I use the large size rubber bands on all the stow points and here's why:

Locking stoes: These are all above the cascades and the bulk of the lines fit nicely in one wrap.

All others: These are below the cascades and a double-wrap works nicely.

I do not like the small rubber bands because they are so much harder to work with. It's easier for me to double-wrap than it is to get my fingers into the small rubber bands.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[LouDiamond 1]

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Of course this is mostly a terminology debate......

Quite true. Much like the terms Staging and Metering are confused as are the terms permeability and porosity by most people.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[erdnarob 1]

You don't use rubber bands small enough. If you use the ones at the 3rd raw from the top (some in color), I guarantee you that there is no need to double them (a bit hard to install them). See the picture in attachment. My Katana has HMA 700 lbs lines as small as yours or thinner and I have no problem to keep them at the proper tension. For the 4 locking stows, I use the type which is shown at the lower left corner

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

You don't use rubber bands small enough. If you use the ones at the 3rd raw from the top (some in color), I guarantee you that there is no need to double them (a bit hard to install them). See the picture in attachment. My Katana has HMA 700 lbs lines as small as yours or thinner and I have no problem to keep them at the proper tension. For the 4 locking stows, I use the type which is shown at the lower left corner

I just make my own for my needs.
Tubestow

[markbdaniels 0]

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Here's a vid about double stowing and a bag lock myth. It also describes how they stage an opening... Im no expert, in fact I have never packed a chute Just happened to see this vid a few hours before seeing this thread.

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"Nick Grillet from Performance Designs debunks the myth that double locking line stows will cause a bag lock."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nsca5add8g

[davelepka 4]

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Here's a vid about double stowing and a bag lock myth

I'm not sure I subscribed to that myth, or suggested it as being valid. Did you skip the first 9 words of my post? In case you did, here they are -

Quote

Here's the deal - locking stows can be double wrapped

[erdnarob 1]

Am I asking you to reveal a big secret if you tell me what type of glue and tubing you are using. I tried to make them with surgical pure latex tubing and used different glues ( like the glue to repair bicycle tube) but after letting them dry for 24 hours, when I pulled at them and they came apart.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I use silicone tube and silicone glue. Thinner for simple stows, thicker for locking stows.

I have tried rubber, but that is no good.

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

Am I asking you to reveal a big secret if you tell me what type of glue and tubing you are using. I tried to make them with surgical pure latex tubing and used different glues ( like the glue to repair bicycle tube) but after letting them dry for 24 hours, when I pulled at them and they came apart.

No need for any glue at all. Use a pair of needle-nose pliers to turn one end over about 5mm. Insert the closed pliers into the other end and open the pliers to expand the tubing. Now take a pair of hemostats or similar instrument to grab the turned over end of the tubing and insert it into the opened end. Carefully slide the tubing off the pliers and you're done. No need to glue anything, just put the joined end at the base of the larks head knot when you install the tubestow.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am