Are certain parachutes less safe to unopen than others?

[TheSkiesAbove 0]

I am looking to buy a new rig but when I hear the name Sabre2 and Katana it reminds me of people swooping. Are these canopies less safe than the Stiletto, Specter, or even the Navigator?

Isn't the parachute made and used to get you down safely?

I have 120 jumps and have been jumping and packing a Sabre 2 190. I want to have a safe parachute for wing suiting or tracking hard when I am hundreds of jumps more experienced. I know they have to get smaller; but too smaller?

[brettski74 0]

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I am looking to buy a new rig but when I hear the name Sabre2 and Katana it reminds me of people swooping. Are these canopies less safe than the Stiletto, Specter, or even the Navigator?

Trying to deduce the flight characteristics of a canopy from its name is not a great idea. A better approach might be to read the manufacturers information and recommendations for the canopy. An even better idea would be to discuss your gear selections with your instructors.

A Sabre2 is a good entry level canopy at lower wing loadings and may be a very good choice for you. A Stiletto is a fully elliptical canopy and may not be a good choice for you at any wing loading at your current jump numbers, but I'm saying this with no knowledge of your current skills and abilities.

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I know they have to get smaller; but too smaller?

Why? There's no rule that says you have to downsize. If you want to keep flying your Sabre2 190 until your 80 years old and done 25000 jumps, go for it. If, on the other hand, you get bored with your canopy, have the requisite skills and experience and you decide you want something a little more zippy, then by all means downsize away.

Also, for future reference, crossposting in multiple forums is generally frowned upon.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I am looking to buy a new rig but when I hear the name Sabre2 and Katana it reminds me of people swooping. Are these canopies less safe than the Stiletto, Specter, or even the Navigator?

Fully elliptical canopies like the Stiletto and Katana are more sensitive to control input, intended or otherwise. They take a lot less to enter a steep diving turn. People unintentionally over-control them when turning to avoid obstacles, hit the ground, and break and/or die.

They have a tendency to over-steer and continue to turn once control input is removed especially with the brakes stowed. Combined with control sensitivity that means failure to deal with opening anomalies and/or sub-optimal body position are likely to lead to a spinning opening with line twists that needs to be cutaway. This is not good when combined with learning wing suit flight - I and most of the people I know who insisted on using their usual elliptical canopies have had cutaways.

Nearly all modern canopies are less sensitive to control input than Stilettos because John Leblanc observed people having problems with roll-axis stability on landing.

The Stiletto also has a very positive recovery arc. My Stiletto 120 would achieve level flight on landing after a speed inducing turn with no toggle or rear riser input. This is bad because you're more likely to turn low so the canopy doesn't plane out high and be in the habit of digging out which won't work if you get too low.

Although a Stiletto won't dive as long and hard as more modern designs, at the same size it may be more likely to get you in trouble for those reasons.

With fewer than 300 jumps (500 was the historic recommendation) you have no business under an elliptical canopy of any size. Regardless of jump numbers you're inviting broken bones or worse if you start jumping an elliptical without being proficient at making flat turns before and after plane-out and doing so instinctively when things go wrong.

More modern performance oriented designs like the Katana, Sabre 2, and Samurai will stay in a dive longer and gain more speed. More speed means that when you screw up there's going to be more kinetic energy and a higher chance of breaking things.

A Navigator or Spectre would be friendlier here, although the accepted wisdom is that canopies like the Sabre2/Pilot/Lotus/Safire are good canopies for less experienced jumpers when loaded within Brian Germain's table.

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Isn't the parachute made and used to get you down safely?

The main canopy is built for fun.

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I have 120 jumps and have been jumping and packing a Sabre 2 190. I want to have a safe parachute for wing suiting or tracking hard when I am hundreds of jumps more experienced. I know they have to get smaller; but too smaller?

You don't need to down size and shouldn't be jumping with a wing loading over 1.1 pounds per square foot (assuming you can do all of Brian and Bill's exercises under the 190).

[humanflite 0]

Superb write up Drew
Very good description of the dangers and inevitabilites of aggressive downsizing....

ps// dont feed the troll guys

[peek 20]

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Nearly all modern canopies are less sensitive to control input than Stilettos because John Leblanc observed people having problems with roll-axis stability on landing.

Does anyone know if he stated this publicly?

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1. The Stiletto also has a very positive recovery arc.... This is bad because you're more likely to turn low so the canopy doesn't plane out high and be in the habit of digging out which won't work if you get too low.

2. More modern performance oriented designs like the Katana, Sabre 2, and Samurai will stay in a dive longer and gain more speed. More speed means that when you screw up there's going to be more kinetic energy and a higher chance of breaking things.

Both of these paragraphs are true, and good advice to the OP about safety concerns, but they kind of contradict each other.

So we have to ask ourselves, which characteristics are better or "safer"? Neither or both?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Nearly all modern canopies are less sensitive to control input than Stilettos because John Leblanc observed people having problems with roll-axis stability on landing.

Does anyone know if he stated this publicly?

Tamara Koyn's notes from John's August 18 2001 canopy seminar at Archway Skydiving Center state the following:

In the PD line of canopies, the Stiletto is most responsive to toggle input. Canopies released after the Stiletto require more input to roll. This is because John observed jumpers oscillating on the roll axis while swooping with their Stilettos.

http://www.koyn.com/CloudDancer/articles/2001/CF0801.html

For other manufacturers the subjective impression is that their canopies are less responsive than a same-sized Stiletto (the Diablo being the only exception I'm aware of and the Samurai close enough that I found it reasonable) and logical explanation that too many people found the Stiletto "twitchy."

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1. The Stiletto also has a very positive recovery arc.... This is bad because you're more likely to turn low so the canopy doesn't plane out high and be in the habit of digging out which won't work if you get too low.

2. More modern performance oriented designs like the Katana, Sabre 2, and Samurai will stay in a dive longer and gain more speed. More speed means that when you screw up there's going to be more kinetic energy and a higher chance of breaking things.

Both of these paragraphs are true, and good advice to the OP about safety concerns, but they kind of contradict each other.

So we have to ask ourselves, which characteristics are better or "safer"? Neither or both?

[dragon2 0]

http://www.parachute.nl/fileadmin/knvvlpa_upload/pdf/BVR_bijlage_B_versie_2009-04.pdf

That's a list of canopies that are deemed suitable for various experience levels, with a minimum size and max WL too. These are our rules not yours and i personally don't agree with them for the full 100%, but it gives you an idea where to place certain canopies in the performance line-up. Notice it doesn't mention canopies like Katana, Velocity, Vengeance, Xaos and the like as those are for 700+ jumps.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[peek 20]

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Tamara Koyn's notes from John's August 18 2001 canopy seminar at Archway Skydiving Center state the following: In the PD line of canopies, the Stiletto is most responsive to toggle input. Canopies released after the Stiletto require more input to roll. This is because John observed jumpers oscillating on the roll axis while swooping with their Stilettos.

You are going to find this hard to believe, but I guess I was there! I think that was when John was at a powered parachute event at an airport 15 miles away, and when some people did a demo jump there, he realized a DZ was close, and visited there that evening and gave a impromptu seminar. Small world, huh?

I don't remember him saying that, but hell, we talked for hours. I do know that John was concerned about all the crazyness he saw when people were demoing Stilettos at events, and crashing all around.

[buff 0]

I agree that the Stilletto is way to agressive for those jump numbers. I tried a borrowed ST150 about 50 jumps ago and put 10 on it at Dallas when I went down for Curt Swanson's canopy course.

Tracking off of the base in a whacker formation, I was looking around to clear my airspace and tossed with less than optimal position and went for the death spiral ride on my back.

Curt told me that there was way better technology out there and the Stilletto was not the best choice of canopy for beginning elipticals. Said to put it away for a couple of hundred jumps.

I have not jumped it since that day. I was paying for his knowledge and experience so why disregard it. Even at only a 1.3 WL, I realized that I could probably stay unbroke and learn to fly it but it's that one time off where you suddenly realize that's not grass but corn and make the mistake that will put you in. A year in traction is 200 jumps anyway.

Stay safe and progress only with experience and you will get there when you get there. Oh, take a canopy course from someone on the list and practice what you learn constantly. Time well spent.

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[base283 0]

Exactly what do you mean by the title?
I have no clue.
"Are certain parachutes less safe to unopen than others?"
Please explain.
Take care,
space

[ficus 0]

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1. The Stiletto also has a very positive recovery arc.... This is bad because you're more likely to turn low so the canopy doesn't plane out high and be in the habit of digging out which won't work if you get too low.

2. More modern performance oriented designs like the Katana, Sabre 2, and Samurai will stay in a dive longer and gain more speed. More speed means that when you screw up there's going to be more kinetic energy and a higher chance of breaking things.

Both of these paragraphs are true, and good advice to the OP about safety concerns, but they kind of contradict each other.

So we have to ask ourselves, which characteristics are better or "safer"? Neither or both?

The most concise way to think about this is that the more modern designs carry a higher penalty for error, but offer a lower chance of making that error by giving you a larger window of time in which to bail. It's a trade-off.

[theonlyski 3]

I believe that any parachute that doesnt open is as unsafe as the next parachute that doesnt open.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Snowflake 0]

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I am looking to buy a new rig but when I hear the name Sabre2 and Katana it reminds me of people swooping. Are these canopies less safe than the Stiletto, Specter, or even the Navigator?

Isn't the parachute made and used to get you down safely?

I have 120 jumps and have been jumping and packing a Sabre 2 190. I want to have a safe parachute for wing suiting or tracking hard when I am hundreds of jumps more experienced. I know they have to get smaller; but too smaller?

1. What do you want to do?......CREW, swoop,, not sure? Figure that part out first(if you change your mind no biggie, but at least have an idea of where you want to be)

2. Educate your self. 7 vs 9 cell, "elliptical" vs "square", Tri-cell/cross braced vs not.

3. Ask experienced jumpers what they jump and what they think of there canopies. Check out canopy makers websites. Most of them have some good info.

4. Demo the canopies your thinking about buying first.

5 Make a decision.

My .02

I don't know your W/L but there's nothing wrong with flying the 190 until you can pass BillVons downsizing "tasks"....I'm too lazy to find the link, but I think it's under safety

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[timmyfitz 0]

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1. The Stiletto also has a very positive recovery arc.... This is bad because you're more likely to turn low so the canopy doesn't plane out high and be in the habit of digging out which won't work if you get too low.

2. More modern performance oriented designs like the Katana, Sabre 2, and Samurai will stay in a dive longer and gain more speed. More speed means that when you screw up there's going to be more kinetic energy and a higher chance of breaking things.

Both of these paragraphs are true, and good advice to the OP about safety concerns, but they kind of contradict each other.

So we have to ask ourselves, which characteristics are better or "safer"? Neither or both?

The most concise way to think about this is that the more modern designs carry a higher penalty for error, but offer a lower chance of making that error by giving you a larger window of time in which to bail. It's a trade-off.

Larger window of time in which to bail? Do you mind explaining your reasoning?

[ficus 0]

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The most concise way to think about this is that the more modern designs carry a higher penalty for error, but offer a lower chance of making that error by giving you a larger window of time in which to bail. It's a trade-off.

Larger window of time in which to bail? Do you mind explaining your reasoning?

[councilman24 36]

Are certain parachutes less safe to unopen than others?

Sure, the least safe to UNOPEN is your LAST ONE!

Couldn't resist. But title doesn't make a lot of sense. But, you got sensible answers anyway.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE