BlueHaze 0 #1 August 12, 2008 Here is a video of self induced line twists at a low altitude, cutaway, and use of the skyhook. Posted for learning about this accident. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QECtqCRNKxs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Don 0 #2 August 12, 2008 Thanks for posting the video.I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysteve 0 #3 August 12, 2008 Looks like on the video the jumper must have after opening released his toggles from his hands and let them loose,the self induced line twist happening after he retrieved them. Once i have released my brakes i never let go of the toggles and would say that by doing so he created his own malfunction,no different to other incidents about flying back on stowed breaks and releasing them to perform finals! Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #4 August 12, 2008 Why would you say by letting go of his toggles he created a mal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #5 August 12, 2008 QuoteWhy would you say by letting go of his toggles he created a mal? I wondered about that too. I've let go of my toggles many times, then again, it's a Triathlon and I'm flying straight when I do. About the only time I do it is during crw when I'm receiving a canopy dock from behind. Now if he let go of his toggles while in half brakes or something, making them snap up and consequently wrapping one around the riser or something, can that happen?"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysteve 0 #6 August 13, 2008 Cos the brake line could have wipped round another line or produced a tension knot. The mal it seems was not there when the brakes were first released but it happened almost simultaneously when the toggles were grabbed later, so it seems to me logically, if he had not let them go the first time the mal may not have happened. My own observations and my own thoughts.Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #7 August 13, 2008 QuoteCos the brake line could have wipped round another line or produced a tension knot. I don't understand this. There will be no slack in the brake lines. The canopy PULLS them up...no slack to get tangled in other lines.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mktoson 0 #8 August 13, 2008 Quote Looks like on the video the jumper must have after opening released his toggles from his hands and let them loose,the self induced line twist happening after he retrieved them. Once i have released my brakes i never let go of the toggles and would say that by doing so he created his own malfunction,no different to other incidents about flying back on stowed breaks and releasing them to perform finals! How does letting go of the toggles create the mal? Isn't letting go of the toggles the same configuration the canopy would have if you had it in full flight? I don't see how this would cause the mal. Maybe I'm just reading this wrong! So far, this is the oldest I've ever been. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #9 August 13, 2008 Noob question: What if I was in really deep brakes & dropped them? Maybe out of order? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #10 August 13, 2008 QuoteNoob question: What if I was in really deep brakes & dropped them? Maybe out of order? Because they are under tension from the canopy tail deflection, it is possible for the toggles to whip around the risers, and/or other lines of the rear-riser line group if released quickly, or "DROPPED". It is generally therefore, probably not a good idea to just let them (either, or both - same time or individually) just fly out of your hands, from a deep brakes configuration. Letting them go while already "full flight" and, already resting/restrained against the steering-line guidering generally though will not cause you any problems.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #11 August 13, 2008 Thank you. I don't let go of my toggles until I land but I was just curious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #12 August 14, 2008 Quote Quote Looks like on the video the jumper must have after opening released his toggles from his hands and let them loose,the self induced line twist happening after he retrieved them. Once i have released my brakes i never let go of the toggles and would say that by doing so he created his own malfunction,no different to other incidents about flying back on stowed breaks and releasing them to perform finals! How does letting go of the toggles create the mal? Isn't letting go of the toggles the same configuration the canopy would have if you had it in full flight? I don't see how this would cause the mal. Maybe I'm just reading this wrong! I had a mal by letting go of the toggles. Flying the Sabre 120. unstowed the brakes at 1,000ft, my finger was tied to the right line somehow by the line near the toggle. I shook it off and let go of both toggles quickly while in close to half brakes. Both toggles had zipped right up to the guiderings but the right toggle slung up over the slider ( slider was left at the top of the risers at the time) and around the line group. The toggle made like a T between the lines. Appeared easy enough to in-air rig it then I looked to the right and left and below and at the handles real quick. Cutaway clean and pulled the reserve. Was open above 500'. Landed just about 2 feet shy of the peas. So my answer is yes, letting go of toggles in flight could cause a mal. Got 4 buddies who were in a gnarly crw wrap due to a toggle. That's another story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 10 #13 August 14, 2008 I watched the video linked above by BlueHaze several times, and what I saw was: Normal main deployment. Release brakes. Canopy flies normally. Hard left toggle turn around 360 degrees. Immediate right toggle turn, without waiting for the canopy and jumper to return to straight flight. Canopy flies into line twists. Jumper tries to kick out. Jumper decides that it's time to cutaway. Jumper cuts away. Typically fast SkyHook reserve deployment. Normal reserve flight and landing. (Though I'm not sure I would have made that left turn just before landing. Looked a little low!) This problem can happen even on lightly loaded student canopies. Any time you're making a hard turn, let the canopy return to straight flight before turning the other direction. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sletzer 3 #14 August 14, 2008 That's how I understood the vid too.I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows* SCS #8251 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darktreader 0 #15 August 14, 2008 QuoteI watched the video linked above by BlueHaze several times, and what I saw was: Normal main deployment. Release brakes. Canopy flies normally. Hard left toggle turn around 360 degrees. Immediate right toggle turn, without waiting for the canopy and jumper to return to straight flight. Canopy flies into line twists. Jumper tries to kick out. Jumper decides that it's time to cutaway. Jumper cuts away. Typically fast SkyHook reserve deployment. Normal reserve flight and landing. (Though I'm not sure I would have made that left turn just before landing. Looked a little low!) This problem can happen even on lightly loaded student canopies. Any time you're making a hard turn, let the canopy return to straight flight before turning the other direction. That is not what i saw at all. I never saw a right hand turn period. I saw canopy already open..toogles released then an immediate left 360 in which appeared to be too aggressive and he spins up and and it looks as if he pulls both handles at same time. thats what I saw."Before we waste time talking and getting to know each other, let's just have sex once and see if we're compatible" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #16 August 20, 2008 Quote Looks like on the video the jumper must have after opening released his toggles from his hands and let them loose,the self induced line twist happening after he retrieved them. Once i have released my brakes i never let go of the toggles and would say that by doing so he created his own malfunction,no different to other incidents about flying back on stowed breaks and releasing them to perform finals! hey guys im the guy who had the video on youtube....the only reason i let go of the toggles was because my goggles were so fogged up i couldnt see anything out of them....so your telling me you would fly blind with your hands in your toggles...i think you would fix something that gave you visual problems under canopy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #17 August 20, 2008 QuoteI watched the video linked above by BlueHaze several times, and what I saw was: Normal main deployment. Release brakes. Canopy flies normally. Hard left toggle turn around 360 degrees. Immediate right toggle turn, without waiting for the canopy and jumper to return to straight flight. Canopy flies into line twists. Jumper tries to kick out. Jumper decides that it's time to cutaway. Jumper cuts away. Typically fast SkyHook reserve deployment. Normal reserve flight and landing. (Though I'm not sure I would have made that left turn just before landing. Looked a little low!) This problem can happen even on lightly loaded student canopies. Any time you're making a hard turn, let the canopy return to straight flight before turning the other direction. The only thing your wrong about there is a right hand turn...i posted what happened on youtube! I opened at 3500 feet....was doing some small turns up there...at about 1700 or so my goggles got very very fogged up and i could not see one thing...they are prescription and i cant fly without them....i took my hands out of the toggles...cleaned up the foggy goggles....grabbed the toggles....did a hard left turn...i did not move the right toggle at all....it threw me in a line twist...i chopped and thats what happened... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,792 #18 August 20, 2008 >the only reason i let go of the toggles was because my goggles were >so fogged up i couldnt see anything out of them. It is possible to remove goggles without removing your hands from the toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #19 August 20, 2008 Quote>the only reason i let go of the toggles was because my goggles were >so fogged up i couldnt see anything out of them. It is possible to remove goggles without removing your hands from the toggles. it is possible to remove them without taking your hands out of the toggles....but i cant remove them since they are prescription and i need them to see where everything and everyone is.....i didnt want to pull the toggles down to my face while i was holding the goggles out for a minute to remove the fog... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #20 August 20, 2008 Quoteit is possible to remove them without taking your hands out of the toggles....but i cant remove them since they are prescription and i need them to see where everything and everyone is.....i didnt want to pull the toggles down to my face while i was holding the goggles out for a minute to remove the fog... I'm no expert of course but when I loosen my chest strap (after steerability check!), I reach down with both hands in the toggles like going into brakes and just mirror my movements on both sides. People have said that's not possible on a highly loaded canopy but I'm only loading at .97 at the moment so works for me. Not sure what your WL is but might be worth a try? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #21 August 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteit is possible to remove them without taking your hands out of the toggles....but i cant remove them since they are prescription and i need them to see where everything and everyone is.....i didnt want to pull the toggles down to my face while i was holding the goggles out for a minute to remove the fog... I'm no expert of course but when I loosen my chest strap (after steerability check!), I reach down with both hands in the toggles like going into brakes and just mirror my movements on both sides. People have said that's not possible on a highly loaded canopy but I'm only loading at .97 at the moment so works for me. Not sure what your WL is but might be worth a try? yeah but i dont wanna be screwing around with the toggles in my hands by my camera helmet for a minute...next thing you know you can get lines wrapped around the camera or some freak accident may occur..... Why are you loosening your chest strap with 50 jumps? There really is no reason to open u your chest strap when you have a .97 WL. just my opinion!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #22 August 20, 2008 Quote Why are you loosening your chest strap with 50 jumps? There really is no reason to open u your chest strap when you have a .97 WL. just my opinion!! I've done Germain's canopy course & notice the difference in the efficiency of the wing. If I'm in traffic or lower than normal or just don't feel like it, I don't open the chest strap. It's an optional feature in my book. Who doesn't want a more powerful flare & better lift? Sorry for the OT. Fair enough. I didn't think of the camera helmet. Not something I'm considering at this point in my very short skydiving career. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 10 #23 August 20, 2008 Mark, Thanks for the info; I guess I saw something that wasn't there. I honestly didn't think a canopy like that would twist up with just a single turn. Glad you got out of it okay! "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #24 August 20, 2008 QuoteQuote>the only reason i let go of the toggles was because my goggles were >so fogged up i couldnt see anything out of them. It is possible to remove goggles without removing your hands from the toggles. it is possible to remove them without taking your hands out of the toggles....but i cant remove them since they are prescription and i need them to see where everything and everyone is.....i didnt want to pull the toggles down to my face while i was holding the goggles out for a minute to remove the fog... Get longer brake lines.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueHaze 0 #25 August 20, 2008 At what altitude did you chop and at what altitude were you under reserve? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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