Do you understand the benfits of a Collin's Lanyard?

[billbooth 10]

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If you didn't previously have one of my RSL's, you'll need a pinless, marine eye ripcord, and the full size housing to fit it. Skyhook conversion is easy if you have a pre-existing RWS/UPT RSL. (This is beginning to look like a text message.)

Yes, I am familiar with that ripcord/RSL setup. What I was asking was why the requirement for that setup?

The old standard ripcord-cable-through-a-ring RSL is totally unsatisfactory for a Skyhook type system. I won't tell you exactly why because I don't want to help the competition. However, I will give you a hint. Such systems damage the reserve ripcord cable every time they are used. There are several other reasons that rule out such an RSL in this application.

[KellyF 16]

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The old standard ripcord-cable-through-a-ring RSL is totally unsatisfactory for a Skyhook type system.

Bill, I have to say that the way you word some of your comments gets under my skin. In this case, using the word "type" is a subtle attack (IMO) on any competing system that isn't exactly (licensed) like yours. To say that it's unsatisfactory for THE Skyhook system would be more honest and accurate. I understand that this is how you choose to sell rigs, and I guess that's your prerogative. It's just like saying "tuck tab riser covers are suspected of causing hard openings" without acknowledging that there are subtle and substantial differences in design between various brands. When I asked you at PIA what kind of rigs the couple of unexplained hard openings were on, you claimed you didn't know. Don't you think that would be an important piece to solving the "problem"?

As far as riser flip throughs being something to be concerned about, I don't think that applies to sport rigs NEARLY as much as it applies to tandem rigs, due to the fact that tandem base rings are essentially rigidly mounted, and on sport rigs they rotate freely nearly 90 degrees. Many tandem landings are slid in, and the canopy dives into the ground in front of the tandem pair, often pulling the risers into a flip through. Sport rigs with hard housings will have a very large, prominent loop of riser between the base ring and the riser cover, and I find it hard to believe that anyone would pick their rig up, put it on, then board and exit an airplane with NOBODY pointing that out.

[riggerrob 558]

Re: main riser flip through "... I find it hard to believe that anyone would pick their rig up, put it on, then board and exit an airplane with NOBODY pointing that out.

[billbooth 10]

Kelly, on the way to the current Skyhook system, I went through a bunch of different ways to do the job, including the bight-in-bridle, pin and loop system. The cable through ring static line system was a bad idea on all of them, not just the current Skyhook. No offence was meant when I used the term "Skyhook like" system. It just seemed like the easiest term to use that everyone would understand.

I have measured the riser release forces on many, if not all, tuck tab riser systems, and all of them I measured required more force to release the risers than it takes to unstow the lines. This, in my opinion, can lead to hard openings. By the way, the super hard opening rigs I talked to you about were not Vectors. If they were, I would have remembered which rig it was. Of course, Vectors also have hard openings.

I agree, flip throughs are far more common on tandems, but not unheard of on solo rigs. I also find it hard to believe that anyone would put on a rig in that condition, but the fact remains, they do. Mis-rigging the 3-ring is more common on solo rigs, simply because there are far more of them, and they are more often packed by inexperienced jumpers.

Kelly, as I've told you before, there are few people in this industry I respect more than you. If you want to call and talk to me about these points in a less public manner, please do.

[980 0]

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I have measured the riser release forces on many, if not all, tuck tab riser systems, and all of them I measured required more force to release the risers than it takes to unstow the lines.

What lines/stows combinations were tested? What elastic length and configuration (single or double wrapped)? What lengths of line from the last stow to the links? I would think these factors would all influence the force needed to unstow the lines.

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This, in my opinion, can lead to hard openings.

By what mechanism do you think this causes hard openings?

[mjosparky 3]

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Gear awareness and knowledge is LOW on their priority list.

Tee!
Hee!

Fixed it for you Rob.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billbooth 10]

In an ideal deployment, when the canopy comes out of the bag, the suspension lines should be under uniform tension, and the same length. This is the purpose of a deployment bag, after all...to make a lines first deployment. If both riser covers haven't opened before the canopy comes out of the bag, one of two scenerios, both bad, are possible.

1. Both riser covers open simultaneuosly at line stretch (snatch force), and there is sudden slack in the lines. This slack passes through the slider grommets, allowing the canopy to extend upward a foot or so above the slider. This means that you start deployment with the slider a foot down your lines. This can obviously increase opening force. Try packing your slider a foot below the slider stops, and see what happens.
2. One riser cover releases at line stretch before the other. Now you start deployment with one group of lines a foot or so longer than the other group. As you might imagine, this can cause a spinning opening, which in turn can cause either line twists, or worse yet, the canopy rotates one group of cells downward, directly into the 120 mph relative wind, which causes that side of the canopy to open explosively.

Velcro and magnetic riser covers both release with a force of under 5 pounds, yet stay shut very well during freefall...especially the magnetics. Line stows, in order to correctly do their job, should take around 10 pounds of force to unstow. So Velcro and magnetic riser covers always open completely before the canopy get out of the bag. I have never seen tuck tab riser covers which actually stay shut in freefall AND open consistantly with a force of under 10 pounds.

Now as we all know, most tuck tab systems work well enough most of the time. However, this is my explaination why a canopy that opens fine most of the time, suddenly hurts you. There are other possible reasons, but I think this is a major one, which can be eliminated by magnetic riser covers. That is why I took the trouble to develop them.

[KellyF 16]

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No offence was meant when I used the term "Skyhook like" system. It just seemed like the easiest term to use that everyone would understand.

Bill, I don't think you meant to offend anyone, but I think you choose your words wisely to serve you best. Everyone knows that you can have the greatest invention the world has ever seen, but if you can't sell it, it's "no good"

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I agree, flip throughs are far more common on tandems, but not unheard of on solo rigs. I also find it hard to believe that anyone would put on a rig in that condition, but the fact remains, they do.

Look at the picture I've attached, and tell me honestly, if you think it's REALISTIC for someone to pick that rig up, put it on, then board and jump from a plane with NOBODY mentioning it. Truth be told, the riser that Mark referred to seeing earlier in this thread was a tandem riser, correct? Yes, mis-rigging risers does happen, as does mis-rigging chest strap adaptors, but no one is pushing to only have B-12 snaps or Cobra buckles on chest straps to prevent the 1 fatality in who knows how many years. I'm just saying that the ODDS are very much in favor of the jumper at this point, and that broken RSL risers are not killing people left and right, by any stretch of the imagination. It's far more likely that jumper error will kill the next hundred jumpers (or more) before a broken RSL riser without a Collin's Lanyard. I think you know this and that's why it wasn't a standard feature on your RSL equipped rigs before the Skyhook. I think you saw the CL as the key marketing point for your Skyhook device, and that's why you never licensed it seprately. Again, good marketing

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Kelly, as I've told you before, there are few people in this industry I respect more than you. If you want to call and talk to me about these points in a less public manner, please do.

Bill, thanks for the compliment, but I know you say that to all the boys (OK, maybe just most) I think it's good for the public for conversations like this to be out in the open so people can have a more informed opinion.

I've said it before- the Skyhook won't save lives because of faster reserve deployments, or because of the CL, it's simply going to be because it gets more people jumping with RSL's

I also don't really agree with your hard opening theory, but I've rambled on enough, and I need to get in the shop and build some rigs, but I will say that people had hard openings with velcro riser covers too

[billvon 2,406]

>Look at the picture I've attached, and tell me honestly, if you think
>it's REALISTIC for someone to pick that rig up, put it on, then board and
>jump from a plane with NOBODY mentioning it.

The more common flipthrough faces to the side, not straight up in my experience. On a typical CRW rig it would be a lot tougher to see a problem with that, when the other side isn't even under a riser cover to begin with.

Given that we've had people jump with risers on backwards and chest straps not even near the adapter, I don't think that it's a given that someone would catch a flipthrough.

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

Funny, the only experience I have had with only having one tuck tab come open on deployment was on sigmas, and it's usually good for taking a bite out of your neck. As far as the lines going slack when the tuck tabs open evenly and allowing the canopy to retreat from the slider? I think the relative wind might have something to say about keeping it up against the slider stops. Sounds a bit like picking fly shit out of pepper.

[KellyF 16]

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The more common flipthrough faces to the side, not straight up in my experience. On a typical CRW rig it would be a lot tougher to see a problem with that, when the other side isn't even under a riser cover to begin with.

Like this? (with the exception of the riser going under the riser cover) But really, how many CRW jumpers do you know of that jump with RSL's?

As a general rule, if you can't see someone's 3 rings from the front, it's worth questioning them I think

[DougH 270]

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As a general rule, if you can't see someone's 3 rings from the front, it's worth questioning them I think

Any jumper that would pack that, throw it on his or her back, and then jump it doesn't need a collin's lanyard. They need an attitude adjustment and possibly a set of golf clubs.

I have consider myself lucky to have caught a few misrouted chest straps on other jumpers, but that... that is a whole nuther level of complacency.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[drjump 0]

Lets all go back to 1 & 1/2 shot capewells!

[LouDiamond 1]

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Lets all go back to 1 & 1/2 shot capewells!

What do you mean? Capewells are still being used successfully on some military systems. In fact, when "they" decided to reinvent the Capewell concept on the MC-6 it caused a serious set of problems. To imply that the Capewell is outdated is inaccurate as it is still useful in certain applications; and in the case of the MC-6 it also validates the old saying " if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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