Vigil II or Cypres2?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Nonetheless, the incidents happened.

Don't neglect to acknowledge your original statement about "toast" and the incorrect information about how the event occurred.

There's nothing to acknowledge, Lou. You're arguing semantics that they didn't accidentally get put into that mode. Bottom line, it's a KISS violation resulting in at least two incidents. You can't write off that risk as astronomically small. I think Argus did that feature better and safer, though for me, there would never be occasion to change the mode, so it's not a selling point to me.

[LouDiamond 1]

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You're arguing semantics that they didn't accidentally get put into that mode

I'm not arguing anything, I am merely stating the facts behind those incidents as you erroneously used one of them to question my astronomical statement.

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Bottom line, it's a KISS violation

Again, I refer you to the user manual, chapter 10. The AAD unit turns on just like the Cypress, it takes the users input to put it into any other mode, the same holds true for the Cypress.

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You can't write off that risk as astronomically small.

You're confusing the subject, what you are refering to has nothing to do with my original statement where I described the chances of the unit changing modes inadvertantly on its own or through use.

The topic you have focused on now is attributable to user error/ignorance of their equipment. In which case I would agree with you. If more people relied not only on word of mouth but also did some of thier own research and read the users manuals of products they would make sound decissions and understand how their equipment/car/computer/TV is designed to work. People have a choice, its ultimately up to them to either allow others to make their decissions for them or do some research and decide for themselves.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kelpdiver 2]

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You're confusing the subject, what you are refering to has nothing to do with my original statement where I described the chances of the unit changing modes inadvertantly on its own or through use.

It's really a different in outlook. I don't distinguish greatly between spontaneous failures and user error mistakes when it comes to design and risk analysis. People make errors, even when informed (as you illustrated with the wing suit jumper).

When I'm diving, where I will claim expertise, I use a rig that minimizes potential for error and plans for the errors I (or a team member) are most likely to make. Back on this side, I know that my C2 will not jump into tandem mode.

As for the Vigil II - I'd let others use it for a year first before buying.

[LouDiamond 1]

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It's really a different in outlook.

No, it's not about outlook, you switched up mid stream and tried to use the statement out of context.

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I use a rig that minimizes potential for error and plans for the errors I (or a team member) are most likely to make.

So I am assuming you use a dive computer.....do you know how to use it? Did you read the manual? Or do you randomly keep pushing buttons without knowing what they do?

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I know that my C2 will not jump into tandem mode

Neither will a Vigil. Just out of curiousity, have you actually touched a Vigil and put it through it's modes? Have you read the manual? I'm just curious why you think it just randomly jumps into other modes.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[JeepDiver 0]

I question the objectively of a sponsored skydiver regarding gear.

Another reference about Vigil/Vigil2 was made of a well known jumper working for a well known manufacturer who is also sponsored by Vigil in a prior thread.

A friend of mine just bought an Argus. The rigger who strongly recommended it to this newbie jumper is sponsored by Argus. Is there a connection?

Objectively goes out the window when dealing with a spokesmen or salesmen who receives compensation from a manufacturer.

[LouDiamond 1]

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I question the objectively of a sponsored skydiver regarding gear.

Another reference about Vigil/Vigil2 was made of a well known jumper working for a well known manufacturer who is also sponsored by Vigil in a prior thread.

A friend of mine just bought an Argus. The rigger who strongly recommended it to this newbie jumper is sponsored by Argus. Is there a connection?

Objectively goes out the window when dealing with a spokesmen or salesmen who receives compensation from a manufacturer.

All I have said in my posts is that people should educate themselves about the products they are using or are thinking about using. More importantly,I have addressed the false statements/beliefs in this thread with the facts. Facts that are easily found in the users manual or by simply using the item on the ground.

Skydivers are more apt to take the rumors, half truths and often out right lies they hear as gospel or base their purchasing decisions solely on what the next guy is using without doing any real research themselves. This holds true for containers, parachutes, altimeters, pretty much every piece of equipment we use in skydiving. Just look through the forums and you will see that this is true. I personally encourage people to try as many items out for themselves, see if that container is actually comfortable when you wear it,see if that canopy meets your expectations, THEN make your own decisions as to what you will buy and depend on to save your life every jump. There is a vast difference between hype and facts and I prefer to stick with the facts as I have found people appreciate an honest answer over hype.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[USPA 0]

Option number 3, Argus

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[piisfish 135]

option number 4, a 2nd hand Cypres1 with 4 years left on it (which is the less controversial AAD), and in 4 years time think again, and all products will(should) have all controversies cleaned and ironed

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Samurai136 0]

Here's a fact.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1543504;search_string=deland%20vigil;#1543504

The vigil is designed for several possible modes of operator error and potential tampering; this is a poor design. I'm not suggesting the vigil mysteriously changes modes. I have read the manual.

Operation of a vigil in the wrong mode could happen to anyone.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[LouDiamond 1]

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I'm not suggesting the vigil mysteriously changes modes.

Well thats exactly what you implied when you stated the following:

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just because you turned it on in pro mode, unless you check it every jump, there is no guarantee it is still set in the same mode.

If you've read the manual and know how it operates why would you make such a statement?


The link you posted shows that it was attributed to user error(not checking the unit before jumping and/or having been changed by someone else). The intentional tampering(turning off) or changing of modes could be done to any AAD on the market either by the user or a malicious party and isn't a reflection on the manufacturer or the product.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Samurai136 0]

I didn't imply anything. You made a bad inference and confused the issue.

I have been very clear on several points.

1. Vigil has a poor design philosophy
2. Operator error and/ or tampering can allow the vigil to be operated in any of three modes
3. Vigil will activate in false positive scenarios; conditions in which a skydiver would not want it to activate. (refer to 400-way vigil activations; cypres shuts off instead of activation in false positive scenarios)
4. Due to a better design philosophy Cypres 2 does not have these issues.

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The intentional tampering(turning off) or changing of modes could be done to any AAD on the market either by the user or a malicious party and isn't a reflection on the manufacturer or the product.

Your assertion is factually untrue.
Cypres 2 must be sent back to the manufacturer to have the mode switched. See manual:

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CYPRES 2 is available in four models:
Expert CYPRES 2
Student CYPRES 2
Tandem CYPRES 2
Speed CYPRES 2
Converting models
A conversion between each of these four CYPRES 2
models (Expert - Student - Tandem - Speed) is
possible.
To prevent accidental setting, this procedure has
to be performed by the manufacturer. It will be executed
by the same people that built the unit. This
includes new settings, a new color corresponding
push button, a new label, and a complete functional
test. All this at no charge.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[adobelover 0]

I have had a Vigil and a Cypres2 for 4 years and I would buy another Vigil in a heartbeat. Do not know how anyone could accidently set the Vigil in the wrong mode. It's easy to change the mode but NOT by accident. A gear check should ALWAYS be done before jumping any rig!

_________________________________________


Old age ain't no place for sissies!

[LouDiamond 1]

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I didn't imply anything. You made a bad inference and confused the issue.

The statement you made couldn't have been any more misleading in its wording, one wouldn't have to infer anything as its quite clear what you meant. They are your words, own them.

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I have been very clear on several points.

1. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. However it doesn't make it fact.

2. Any AAD on the market could be tampered with or put into DZ offset mode either accidentally or maliciously.

3. Stating a half truth doesn't make it true, the whole story can be seen here. I won't get into the "some turned off, some fired" debate as there is already a thread specifically about that and clearly there are people on both sides who see it as a plus or minus. Again, hopefully people will take the time to educate themselves and understand how their equipment is designed to operate and not base their decisions on half truths and out right falsehoods.

4. See #1




My Quote:
The intentional tampering(turning off) or changing of modes could be done to any AAD on the market either by the user or a malicious party and isn't a reflection on the manufacturer or the product. End my quote.

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Your assertion is factually untrue.

Let me be more specific as you obviously interpreted that in a very myopic way. Any AAD, can be put into a setting( DZ offset for example) or simply turned off accidentally either by the user or intentionally by a malicious party. That is a factually true statement.


I am not debating Chevy or Ford is better here, thats not my intent. People have various reasons for liking/disliking different items from cars to sports teams. However, if a person is going to espouse and debate how and why an object is better than another object for comparison, they should at least have the integrity to represent both items factually.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Samurai136 0]

Now you're changing the topic. Please let's stick to the facts.
Altitude offset is different from Pro/Student/ Tandem modes.

Fact 1. Vigil allows the user to select the Pro/ Student/ Tandem mode; Cypres must be configured by the MFG. Cypres eliminates the possibility of the unit being in the wrong mode due to operator error or tampering.


Cypres and Vigil handle altitude offset differently as well.
Fact 2. Altitude offset with cypres is only good for one jump after which it resets to zero.
Fact 3. If in doubt about any altitude offset before jumping with cypres, cycle the power off and on and it resets current ground altitude as zero.

Fact 4. vigil altitude offset is permanently saved until it's changed.
Fact 5. an on/off power cycle of the vigil will not reset the altitude offset.
This lends itself to potential operator error and tampering.

A vigil owner must know the meaning of all possible display read outs to insure proper use and how to alter all the "options" the vigil offers.

A cypres 2 owner only needs to be able to cycle the power on/off. If tampering or operator error with the altitude offset has occured, cycle the power, problem solved.

Airtec has a better design philosophy for cypres which results in a user friendly device that eliminates operator errors that AAD is willing to accept in their product (vigil).

I imagine hearing an AAD-vigil rep saying, "Oh, you didn't know that 'T+350m' on the vigil display is not an error code. It means it's in tandem mode with a +350 meter altitude offset. That's why you had a reserve deployment at 3100ft. It's your responsibility to read the manual. We don't presume to know anything about how you intend to use your vigil; but it did operate exactly the way it was designed."

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[hackish 8]

I like these discussions because I'm always learning new things. I didn't know that a cypres2 would be changed by the manufacturer for free. Definitely good to know as I've been looking for a used AAD...

I wouldn't call the offset a design flaw in the vigil - if the display clearly indicates that it is in offset mode then any reasonable owner who knows how to operate his equipment should be able to easily identify this on startup. You do look at the display to make sure your AAD started up correctly don't you?

-Michael

[divnswoop 0]

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A vigil owner must know the meaning of all possible display read outs to insure proper use and how to alter all the "options" the vigil offers.

WOW!

Fact: If you don't know the product your jumping or are too lazy to learn....PLEASE QUIT SKYDIVING.

Fact: Just cause a product is adjusted differently, or performs in a different manner than another AAD, Canopy, harness/container...nevermind......refer to fact one.



...and I exclusively jump cypres

[gjhdiver 0]

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cypres is superior because of its reliable design philosophy.

Sorry. I have to call you on this. I had a misfire on a recently seviced Cypres that could not be explained. I use Argus now. My friend Adrian was killed by a Cypres II fire that the manual stated explicitly could not happen. I've spent a long time with the desgner of that unit, and spent a long time taking it to pieces and looking at the design and firing criteria for the different modes. The Argus test data is available for all to see with a request to the designer , which is important if you want to make an informed decision about a purchase. Too many people just parrot "Cypres good, everyone else bad" with absolutely no idea of the engineering of any of the units.

As for why there are modes. The sport is evolving very quickly. I don't want to have one AAD for RW, one for swooping etc. Also, for a drop zone owner, having one AAD that can cover every rig on the facility is very attractive. Commonality across all the equipment makes sense. from both a safethy and an economic standpoint.

I have nothing particular against Cypres, except that I have yet to see an explanation of my misfire. Also, my personal opinon was that they circled the wagons after Adrian was killed. I don't have a lot of respect for that. I won't buy another of their units.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Now you're changing the topic. Please let's stick to the facts.

No, I am not changing the topic. I was trying to make it as simple as possible since you failed to grasp what I meant and it's still apparent since you go on to list all the differences between the 2 units.

I think the 3 posts above this one (#40-42) did a good job of summing up what I have been saying all along as well.

You seem to forget, I am not debating which is better. I am saying that people need to make informed decisions when it comes to making their purchases(this applies to anything), read their users manual, and base their decisions on facts, not BS that is perpetuated around the DZ/internet about what someone's sister's brother's cousin heard.

You like Cypres, thats clear and you stated why. Thats you opinion and you're entitled to it. However, falsely maligning a manufacturers product because you don't like it or repeating something that is blatantly untrue (or a half truth) and trying to present it as fact is deceitful.

In case anyone is wondering, I use both Vigil and Cypres AADs. I know how each one is designed and how it operates, not just because I have personally sat down with each of the designers, but because I have read the users manual that comes with every unit. I understand how all of the AAD units work and their differences and quite frankly I feel safe with all of them. For those who like to point out the problems the new manufacturers have had, I say look back at the problems Cypres initially had and as post #42 clearly states,still has. None of the AADs are infallible, nothing in skydiving is for that matter. The difference now a days is that skydivers have a choice in what they use and its up to them to make their own informed decisions. Hopefully those decisions aren't based on someone else's misinformation.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[dragon2 0]

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I didn't know that a cypres2 would be changed by the manufacturer for free. Definitely good to know as I've been looking for a used AAD...

Um why would that matter, you're not going to find many non-expert AADs 2nd hand anyway.

And if you decided to change the unit you'd have a cypres with the wrong color button or will they change that too?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Samurai136 0]

Altitude offset is a necessary feature on any AAD. There may be circumstances where the DZ altitude is different from the airport altitude.

Generally, most dropzones are the same altitude as the departure airport (they're usually the same place). If you don't use a skill you lose it. Vigil operators who never have to change the mode or altitude offset probably won't remember how to do it. If you were changing the features, there are approx 30+ read outs as you navigate the options. If you never changed anything on the vigil you would see about 1/3 of the read outs and only have used the power on/off features.

Cypres keeps it simple. The device is either on or off. When it's on it either reads "0" or an altitude off set. If the altitude offset is wrong, cycle the power.

If an AAD reads an altitude offset the odds are high that the operator set it that way intentionally. If it was an accident the sykdiver only needs to cycle the power on a Cypres to correct their mistake. If it's a Vigil they have to know what mistakes they made in the first place to correct them. Cycling the power will not correct an operator error on the vigil.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[dragon2 0]

OTOH if you're jumping with an offset needed that might be for the whole day, we have DZ's like that near us. So then the Vigil is safer because with the Cypres you have to remember to set it EVERY single jump. Both have their merits, neither is "dangerous" if you know what you're doing.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[divnswoop 0]

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Cypres keeps it simple. The device is either on or off. When it's on it either reads "0" or an altitude off set. If the altitude offset is wrong, cycle the power.

True, but I know about 500 Marines with 25-50 jumps who are very capable of setting their cypres on every jump. All they have to do is figure out the barometric pressure, plug that into the calculator, figure out the desired firing altitude, and adjust the MB reading....AND they do it every jump.....WHY? Cause they are TAUGHT how to do it and are competent freefallers.(which comes from competent coaches and Instructors who TEACH how gear works, NOT by coaches who say if it is 0 down it is good to jump)

How does a dual sided RSL work?
Why should you be more carefull with a FXC AAD?
E.d.u.c.a.t.e

[jurgencamps 0]

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Cypres and Vigil handle altitude offset differently as well.
Fact 2. Altitude offset with cypres is only good for one jump after which it resets to zero.
Fact 3. If in doubt about any altitude offset before jumping with cypres, cycle the power off and on and it resets current ground altitude as zero.

Fact 4. vigil altitude offset is permanently saved until it's changed.
Fact 5. an on/off power cycle of the vigil will not reset the altitude offset.
This lends itself to potential operator error and tampering.

Fact 4: How many owners of a cypres, will offset it correctly, but forget that they have to do it after each jump in certain circumstances (I have been on at least one DZ where they have to do this when the wind comes from a certain direction - the hill under the exitpoint is more than 100 ft higher than the DZ). So only the first jump their AAD is set correctly ("This lends itself to potential operator error ")
The VIGIL shows very clearly that it is set with a certain ofset.

The different AAD's give you certain different options. The user can make a choice. Do you like multimodes or not, pick brand A, B, C, D, ... As a swooper do you jump an AAD or do you prefer a speed-version or a swoopmode.

Which one is safer or better? It depends on what you do with it. I never jump from pressurized jumpplanes, I like to choose between a normal mode and a swoopmode. So my choice can be different from yours.

Lesson: brand A is not better than brand B, C, D, ..., it's just different with different options and different pro's and contra's. It's up to the user to buy what he needs and is able to handle.

If I need a pickup, I don't buy a Porsche because it's the best sportscar.

Jurgen

[kelpdiver 2]

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It's really a different in outlook.

No, it's not about outlook, you switched up mid stream and tried to use the statement out of context.

It helps you to think that way, but doesn't stop the fact that the failure mode has occurred. And that's the bottom line - results.

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I use a rig that minimizes potential for error and plans for the errors I (or a team member) are most likely to make.

So I am assuming you use a dive computer.....do you know how to use it? Did you read the manual? Or do you randomly keep pushing buttons without knowing what they do?

I don't allow the dive computer to be a single point of failure in the plan. I have a buddy, I have a mechanical SPG, and I can look for the surface. The depth indication is the key piece of data I want from it, but I don't need it.

As for model selection, I use an Suunto that clearly indicates the gas in use, and leave it in nitrox mode even when on air to ensure that the O2 level is indicated. Reduces the likelihood of descending with 36% on a long dive with the computer thinking I'm on air and putting itself into lock mode.

[LouDiamond 1]

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It helps you to think that way, but doesn't stop the fact that the failure mode has occurred. And that's the bottom line - results.

Hey, I am not here to argue with you. It's quite clear what you wrote and not an interpretation issue. Changing the subject, not answering questions and making the conversation convoluted is a technique but it doesn't change what you said/wrote. I raised the BS flag on your statement and you continue to tap dance. If you don't want to stand behind your words and admit what you said is a falsehood and was used out of context, hey thats on you.

And to address your statement about results please refer to post #42 for one example (of several) that statement can equally be applied to.

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I don't allow the dive computer to be a single point of failure in the plan. I have a buddy, I have a mechanical SPG, and I can look for the surface. The depth indication is the key piece of data I want from it, but I don't need it.

Thats great. I can do a 1 for 1 skydiving comparison as well but you didn't answer the question I posed. If you did, it would of proved my point about reading the owners manual and understanding how your equipment works. However, given the topic(s) of discussion in this thread I find the parallels ironic in that you admit to using your dive computer in a mode different from the gas you are using. What happened to the KISS principal you spoke of?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING