Sabre2 ?

[maurice1369 0]

My ? goes out to all the PPL that own or have even used a Sabre2. I know there are a fair # of reviews of the Sabre2 but I am curious as to what all of you out there think of the Sabre2 as far as a first canopy choice. I have ordered a Sabre2 and my previous experience has been with the PD Navigator. How much of a difference is there between the 2 canopies. I have never flown a Sabre2 so I don't have any means of comparing the 2 canopies

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[freefalle 0]

contact Kim at performance designs and ask to demo one. shes a great person, ver knowledgeable and will help you the best she can.

Theres nothing wrong with a sabre 2 I jumped one before I got my spectre I like it, its not a bad canopy IMHO

[moto89 0]

I would say that it's safe to say that your Sabre 2 will be much all around quicker than that Navigator. Turns, pitch control every thing will happen at a higher rate of speed, and all your inputs will probably be significantly more drastic depending on your wing loading.

Less talking, more flying.

[gdmusumeci 0]

What will you be loading the Sabre2 at?

[maurice1369 0]

Well my exit weight will be about 225 and I ordered a 190 so it will be about 1.18:1

I used to jump a Navigator 240 and when I used to jump that canopy I weighed 40 lbs more than I do right now but my wing loading was about 1.12:1 with the Navigator. So, I believe that I will be just fine.

The majority of my landings were standup except for a few that I slid in on my ass

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[labrys 0]

You're already well over the manufacturer and USPA recomendations for wingloading with your experience level and if you're truly going from a Navigator to a Sabre2 you're changing planforms and down-sizing at the same time... also not recommended.

When I got my first gear I went from a Nav220 to a Hornet 210, also downsizing and changing planforms at the same time. I justified my choice by keeping my wing loading way under the recommendation. My instructors thought it was a good choice for me. If I had been as far over on wingloading as you are I would not have done it.

Your profile says your currently jumping a Safire2. Is that new information?

Edit to add: I jump at Sabre2 and think it's a great canopy. I also think they're great first canopies when they're chosen at the right wingloading, but I'd never actually recommend a canopy to anyone at my experience level. I'd refer them to people with more experience than I have.

Owned by Remi #?

[Nicolai 0]

Hey there.. I've made exactly the same progression.

I'd say that the Sabre2 is a lot more... SOMETHING.

It's more of everything a navigator is. It turns faster, it flies faster and it flares amazingly more than a navigator ever does.
It's a bitch to pack tho..

I am very happy i chose a sabre2 and I abolutely love it. It is a faster canppy In every aspect, but in no means too fast.
my loading is aprox. 1,1.. i think.

Blue skies.

Nicolai

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

my exit weight will be about 225 and I ordered a 190 so it will be about 1.18:1

my wing loading was about 1.12:1 with the Navigator.

First, Sabre2 is a great first canopy at a moderate W/L. Lots of lift, soft (though a bit wild sometimes) openings, very predictable. I think you will find that the Sabre2 has flight characteristics in the ballpark of the Nav, but more "tuned" (more lift, faster, sharper turns, bigger dive... just higher performance in general).

In my opinion, your WL is a bit high, but not necessarily scary-high. However, since you are going from a 240 to a 190 (even though the W/L change is fairly small), there will be a definate, noticeable difference in performance. It would be a very good idea to put several jumps at least one intermediate sized canopy... maybe a Nav 220, Nav 200, Sabre2 230, and/or Sabre2 210.

Wether you step down gradually or not, definately take a few jumps to open high and learn as much as you can about the flight envelope of the new canopy... how does it flare, how much altitude does it lose in turns, how does it respond to rear risers, where does it stall, ect. Good luck and be safe

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[maurice1369 0]

SkyJunkie that is exactly what my plans were. But the only reason I went down in canopy size so drastically is because I lost roughly 50 pounds. The W/L difference is not that big. Everyone that I have talked to says that I should be good with the 190. I have even emailed a few ppl asking their advice about my wingloading and all say that I should be pretty good.

I mean when I returb to the states I am gonna have to rent gear while my rig is being assembled so I am gonna do my recurrency on a 210 canopy. But, I won't return to the states until mid January of next year and I forsee that I will lose another 10-15 pounds which will put my exit weight around 210-215 and will drop my W/L to about 1.1:1 which will be closer to what I used to be at. Ultimately I feel as if I will be alright but hey I also plan on taking a canopy control class so I can get help with my landings and I plan on doing enough time under my canopy so I can get to know my canopy intimately.

I am not gonna make the fatal mistake like most PPL and think I am a SKYGOD but I plan on taking all precautions and get as much education as I can so I can be a better skydiver

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

It sounds to me like you have a well thought-out, practical approach. very cool! If you do all the things you are describing, you will certainly be doing the right things to keep as safe as possible. Keep it up!

Quote

I am not gonna make the fatal mistake like most PPL and think I am a SKYGOD but I plan on taking all precautions and get as much education as I can so I can be a better skydiver

For the record, I have observed most newer jumpers to be fairly conservative, even more so in the last few years since people are constantly bombarding them with advice not to downsize, ect.

The 100-jump-wonder "skygods" I think are the exception, but it doesn't seem like it because they are so loud, so stupid, and break themselves so much more frequently!

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[maurice1369 0]

Well SkyJunkie I was on that path when I first started to jump solo but during an Accuracy competition I overestimated the wind and slammed into a tree then the ground and almost snapped my ankle. Luckily, I did not break anything but after that I told myself that I would take all the necessary steps so that I would never hurt myself again. So, when I return to the states I am gonna pick up my brand new rig and I am gonna pay to get the necessary canopy training. I am also gonna do alot of hop-n-pops so I can get to know my canopy intimately. 190 is the lowest that I will go. I don't care much for swooping. Sure, I think it looks cool but I love doing stuff during freefall. I may want to learn how to swoop later but for right now I am happy with learning how to freefly.

Anyway, my accident has humbled me alot

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[popsjumper 2]

What I'm seeing:
1. Not current
2. Never-jumped-before canopy
3. 72 jumps
4. 1 year in sport
5. Bought something that is a total unknown
6. Butt slides
7. Straight in landings, no experience with evasive maneuvers
8. Increased wing loading
9. Changed platforms

10. Too many red flags.


My $0.02?
Stay with what you are used to until:
1. You quit butt sliding
2. You can automatically perform evasive manuevers without having to think and analyze.
3. You can do those things on an intermediate-sized canopy.
4. Do those things on a same-size, different platform canopy
5. You can stay within manufacturer recommendations on canopy size/experience.
6. You can do the research before you buy.
7. You will not use the excuse, "I've already bought it so I'm going to jump it."

I do not support your decisions.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[maurice1369 0]

Well,

I have done the research and I believe that I will be fine and I know my limitations and I will be well within W/L guidelines by the time I jump my gear. If I did not think I would be able to fly it safely I would not have purchased it.


I don't plan on jumping it right away. I mean when I return there will be alot of PPL wanting to get there gear inspected and they said I will have a good month wait because of all the gear they will have to check.

So I will have plenty of time to try out a Sabre2 210 to see how it goes and get current again and then when my gear is ready I believe that I will be good to go.

Anyway the worse thing that can happen is that I will have to jump rented gear for a little bit longer.

The way I see it is that my safety is worth it

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[popsjumper 2]

*sigh*

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[maurice1369 0]

POPS,

I understand your concern and since I am new and now I am not current What would you suggest to me.


I am always open to suggestions

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[popsjumper 2]

1. Butt sliding
Avoid butt sliding. PLF instead. If you simply have to slide with your body on the ground, there are better ways to do it than flat on your butt. A "baseball" slide comes to mind. Stay with a familiar canopy until you can train yourself to PLF or something other than butt-sliding...by far and away preferably PLF.

2. Evasive manuevers
You know that low turns are one of the leading causes of injuries nowadays. Planned, intentional turns near the ground are one thing. Unplanned evasive turns and other manuevers are another. Train yourself under a familiar canopy to be able to automatcally react to those situations using appropriate low-altitude turn manuevers...flat turns, braked turns etc. Practice doing quick evasive manuevers and then quickly getting the canopy back over you head for landing. Only practice or luck will get you through a low altitude easive manuever...picture having to avoid another jumper low on final. You don't want that evasive manuever to be a panic-driven, hard toggle turn on nearly ANY canopy much less one that is much more responsive than what you are used to.

3. Intermediate-sized canopy
Practice those things on every canopy you fly as you downsize. Get used to gradual changes in performance rather than a large change all at once.

4. Different platform canopy
Same as #3

5. Manufacturer recommendations on canopy size/experience.
At your exit weight, you would be in the advanced or expert category for the Sabre2...is this what you want?
http://www.performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=sa
Are you ready for that?


Having said all that, I'm pretty sure that you will eventually get there so hold on to the Sabre2 and prepare yourself for it...just put your safety up front and get there gradually, learning as you go. There's lessons to be learned from the young jumpers hurting themselves by downsizing beyond their capabilities...please don't be one of them.

Any safety-minded canopy pilot would tell you these things...and more.

Good luck on your progression. There is nothing I like to see more than young jumpers progress to be old jumpers.

Thanks for listening.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[maurice1369 0]

Pops,

I know what you say is true and GOD how I would normally just blow you off and say what do you know but past experiences tellme that you are right. I have contacted my dealer to see if a 210 will fit in my container. Man, I know my head is saying that I should do what I want but my gut says you are right and when it has to deal with skydiving decisions I always go with my gut.


I hate when I am wrong but there is nothing I can do.

Thanks for the advice and TRUST me I also want to become and old jumper

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[popsjumper 2]

I have been politely corrected. It's planform, not platform and the Navigator is also slightly elliptical so the change in planform would not really apply in your situation.

Oh...and BTW, if you haven't taken a canopy control class/seminar as yet, I highly recommend Scott Miller's course.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[maurice1369 0]

Hey POPS,

Scott Miller runs that course that is offered down in FL right?

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[AggieDave 6]

Yes, Scott Miller is based in DeLand; however, he travels a lot and offers courses all around the country. Check the Flight-1 website for class dates and locations.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[maurice1369 0]

Sweet so hopefully when I go down to Zephyrhills to pick up my rig I will be able to attend one of the canopy courses

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[btvr 0]

I also recommend Scott Miller's canopy course. I did it last month it it was awesome! You learn a lot and have fun doing it. Now I apply what I learned on every jump and have noticed how my skills have improved!!

[labrys 0]

Quote

I have been politely corrected.

Same here. I apologise for the mistake about planform difference.

Quote

Oh...and BTW, if you haven't taken a canopy control class/seminar as yet, I highly recommend Scott Miller's course.

Same here again. I've taken the basic course twice and the advanced once and wouldn't hesitate to repeat either one again.

Owned by Remi #?

[maurice1369 0]

Well guys I had already planned on taking a canopy course but now after all this sound advice I had even more reason to take the course.

If there is any info you can give me as far as the similarities and the diferences between the Navigator and the Sabre2 that would be great

EXPECT THE WORST, HOPE FOR THE BEST!!!

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

If there is any info you can give me as far as the similarities and the diferences between the Navigator and the Sabre2 that would be great

I've seen a couple responses, but here's a little more info... Here's the PD article on flight performance of the Sabre2.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Sabre2-Flight.pdf

The coparisons are made to the Sabre1, but I think the statements generally hold for Sabre2 vs. Nav as well. Having lots of jumps on both Sabre1 and Sabre2, I would say that PD's assessment is very accurate.

PD does not have an article on the performance of the Nav, however their description on the products page is pretty good... I can't say I've jumped the Nav, but my DZ has all Nav's as student/rental gear, and my observation (from the perspective of experienced jumper/AFF instructor) is that it is truly designed to be an introductory "high-performance" wing, unlike other models used for student canopies (large, F-111 canopies that usually fly very differently from anything ZP).

Both Nav and Sabre2 are "tapered" wings. The Nav is ZP-topskin with F-111 ribs and bottomskin, while the Sabre2 is all ZP. Both have a lot of lift even in low speeds, relatively long control ranges (meaning you have to pull the toggles/risers further to get the same response as some competing models), and very deep stall points. I think the Sabre2 in large sizes and low WL will perform very similarly given moderate inputs, but will have the ability to "out-do" the Nav with extreme inputs (you can get it to turn faster, dive harder, stall easier, riser turns are more responsive, ect). This means the Sabre2 will be less forgiving if you do something extreme (intentional or otherwise) near the ground, but should be fairly familiar as long as you keep the inputs more moderate.

Interesting side note: Sabre2 in large sizes has been used successfully as a student canopy, even at the first-jump level (skydive chicago).

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."