"The Most Tandem Jumps in 24 Hours"

[JohnRich 4]

There have been several efforts recently to break a record for the most tandem jumps in a 24-hour period.

This kind of thing has been done many times before by individual jumpers, trying to break a record for the most jumps done in one day by a single person. In those efforts, fatigue and concentration are major factors that could lead to injury. But for these jumps, only the jumper himself is put at risk.

However, for the most tandem jumps in a day, innocent passengers may also be put at risk by fatigue, as a tandem master attempts to earn a prize for himself. Note my emphasis on "innocent" passengers. Let's assume for this poll that the passengers are not experienced volunteer skydivers who understand the risks, but rather, regular passengers making their first jump.

Let's not make this vote about any recent attempts to break this record using experienced passengers. Rather, I put this forth to gather opinions on the issue of using first-time passengers for such a record.

So my question to everyone is this: Is trying to earn "the most tandem jumps in a day" a good idea in regard to passenger safety? Or is this not an issue that we should worry about?

There is already a thread on this subject here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3545495;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
But that thread does not have a poll. So this thread will gather statistics on opinions on the matter.

[sebinoslo 0]

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However, for the most tandem jumps in a day, innocent passengers may also be put at risk by fatigue, as a tandem master attempts to earn a prize for himself.

I would agree with you if the tandem master were to attempt the record for most paying tandem clients throughout 24 hours.

However, it seems that such record are achieved with the help of one sole "trained" and "willing" passenger, who is as much a part of the record as the tandem master.

[erdnarob 1]

When you see that truckers are limited to a continuous 10-12 hours of work, that the pilots going overseas are not coming back and flying the same day. When airplanes go flying from Seattle to Singapour have 2 pilots crews for such a flight why we shouldn't apply the same kind of restriction when the fatigue and passengers safety is involved ???????

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[diablopilot 2]

I'd like it if everyone would quit calling them "passengers". They are students. Period.

If an experienced skydiver wants to be a part of that sort of record, while riding in the student position, more power to them, however any Tandem instructor who increases the danger of a skydive for a true student, simply for grandstanding and glory hounding, needs to have their rating pulled.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skydiverton2 0]

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I'd like it if everyone would quit calling them "passengers". They are students. Period.

If an experienced skydiver wants to be a part of that sort of record, while riding in the student position, more power to them, however any Tandem instructor who increases the danger of a skydive for a true student, simply for grandstanding and glory hounding, needs to have their rating pulled.

That is a different discussion. Here in europe tandems are sold as thrilrides making the person in front a passenger.

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
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Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I'd like it if everyone would quit calling them "passengers". They are students. Period.

If an experienced skydiver wants to be a part of that sort of record, while riding in the student position, more power to them, however any Tandem instructor who increases the danger of a skydive for a true student, simply for grandstanding and glory hounding, needs to have their rating pulled.

That is a different discussion. Here in europe tandems are sold as thrilrides making the person in front a passenger.

Here is Finland, Europe every tandem passenger is a student. It a part of the student training.

[hallux 0]

trying to break a record with first time jumpers would be unfair to the passenger.


However, doing 1 or 2 well organizized night tandems with first timers is not dangerous.
Afterall if attached to a tandem instructor there is no wind limit. So why should there be a light limit? Given the proper precautions and arrangements are taken

[humanflite 0]

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I'd like it if everyone would quit calling them "passengers". They are students. Period.

If an experienced skydiver wants to be a part of that sort of record, while riding in the student position, more power to them, however any Tandem instructor who increases the danger of a skydive for a true student, simply for grandstanding and glory hounding, needs to have their rating pulled.

That is a different discussion. Here in europe tandems are sold as thrilrides making the person in front a passenger.

Here is Finland, Europe every tandem passenger is a student. It a part of the student training.

Not in the Uk.....
They are strictly a passenger from my experiences and talks with TIs in the UK.
Nothing more.

[DARK 0]

i think if the passengers/students are informed off what is happeneing and of the possibility of extra risks then i dont see the problem

also i would imagine that the vast majority of tandem customers consider themselves passengers and not students as they have no intention of continuing skydiving in anyway after. just because it can be used as a training tool does not mean that that is how it is being used

[hallux 0]

couldnt have said it better myself

thanks for that.

[billvon 2,435]

>i think if the passengers/students are informed off what is happeneing and of
>the possibility of extra risks then i dont see the problem . . .

If they truly understand the risks, I'd agree. I don't think most students do, which is why we don't let AFF level 1's jump solo even if they swear on a stack of bibles that they understand and accept the additional risk.

[piisfish 135]

John, where is the :
-they are both willng and aware of the increased risks, so who cares
option

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[DARK 0]

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>
If they truly understand the risks, I'd agree. I don't think most students do, which is why we don't let AFF level 1's jump solo even if they swear on a stack of bibles that they understand and accept the additional risk.

firstly this might be my inexperience shining threw but with that out of the way

i dont think you can compare it to aff really in aff there are many things the student is expected to do from my understanding of tandems the only thing they are expected to do is arch and move their hands if they remember when they are touched on the shoulders.

i think if you sit a group of adults down and tell them you are looking for volunteers for a record attempt. it is an endurance record attempt and that brings with it extra risks and these are a, b ,c and then the adults in the room say they understand and accept the risks then everyone is on the same page and i dont see a problem with it

again just so no1 thinks im preaching above my level or anything i only have 60 odd jumps and iv never done a tandem but thats just how it seems to me

[billvon 2,435]

> it is an endurance record attempt and that brings with it extra risks and these
>are a, b ,c and then the adults in the room say they understand and accept the
>risks then everyone is on the same page and i dont see a problem with it

I guess I've just seen too many students who just plain do not understand the risks, but will say anything to get what they want (a pass, a smaller canopy etc.) In addition, until you actually get out into freefall, you simply have no way of predicting what people will do. I could get many of my AFF students to sign a statement saying something like "I swear I will arch when I exit, and hereby agree to give the dropzone $100,000 if I don't" - and they still wouldn't arch.

[JohnRich 4]

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John, where is the :
-they are both willng and aware of the increased risks, so who cares
option

I didn't list that poll option because I don't think there is any controversy with that one. I think that the vast majority of people wouldn't have any problem with that scenario. Thus, my poll is for the other side of that coin, where the passengers are not fully aware of the risks.

And so far, it's 3-to-1 that thinks it's a bad idea.

[hallux 0]

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> it is an endurance record attempt and that brings with it extra risks and these
>are a, b ,c and then the adults in the room say they understand and accept the
>risks then everyone is on the same page and i dont see a problem with it

I guess I've just seen too many students who just plain do not understand the risks, but will say anything to get what they want (a pass, a smaller canopy etc.) In addition, until you actually get out into freefall, you simply have no way of predicting what people will do. I could get many of my AFF students to sign a statement saying something like "I swear I will arch when I exit, and hereby agree to give the dropzone $100,000 if I don't" - and they still wouldn't arch.

you are right. Its hard to fully explain the risk. Simply telling them that it is slightly more dangerous should be fair enough though. At least then you have explained to them that it is a added risk. However, For a record attempt I dont think its a good idea. Fatigue factor is too high.

That guy was dead on about them being passengers though and not students. when I did tandems 9 out of 10 people told me they didnt wont to pull the parachute or keep up with altitude. they just wanted to "enjoy it"
No matter how hard we try only certain people are going to be skydivers.

[DARK 0]

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John, where is the :
-they are both willng and aware of the increased risks, so who cares
option

I didn't list that poll option because I don't think there is any controversy with that one. I think that the vast majority of people wouldn't have any problem with that scenario. Thus, my poll is for the other side of that coin, where the passengers are not fully aware of the risks.

And so far, it's 3-to-1 that thinks it's a bad idea.

i would have also voted its a bad idea if i knew thats what you were asking sorry

[happythoughts 0]

With the exception of the National Low-Pull record,
I can't think of any record that compromises safety.

Skydiving records are accomplished by the effort and teamwork of many experienced persons.
We aren't talking about the Guiness Record for ear-hair length.

The use of an unaware tandem passenger would not work, so the whole poll is a non-question.

[erdnarob 1]

Human body has some limit. Would you like to have a surgery when the surgeon is doing his second shift on the row. 24 hours is 3 shifts on the row.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[diablopilot 2]

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That guy was dead on about them being passengers though and not students.

They will only be passengers if you allow them to be, if you are so inclined to treat them like passengers, then that's what you'll get. I've got 5,500+ jumps with tandem students, mainly because I believe it is my responsibility to treat them as such.

Considering someone a passenger and calling it a ride is a major disservice, and begins the slide down the slippery slope of careless carnival style tandems. Educating your students as to the full responsibilities and dangers of the activity they choose to participate in is the only responsible thing to do.

When you hear your students say something "Time to sign mt life away." as they fill out the waiver, do you educate them as to the real purpose of the waiver?

When they ask if they can do "flips" do you educate them of the increased danger?

This bullshit attitude that tandems are a ride is totally unacceptable. The manufacturers say so, the USPA says so, the course directors say so, and the PROFESSIONAL Tandem INSTRUCTORS say so.

Look at your rating card folks. It says instructor for a reason. If you're unwilling to be one, hand it over.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[feuergnom 22]

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That guy was dead on about them being passengers though and not students.

They will only be passengers if you allow them to be, if you are so inclined to treat them like passengers, then that's what you'll get. I've got 5,500+ jumps with tandem students, mainly because I believe it is my responsibility to treat them as such.

Considering someone a passenger and calling it a ride is a major disservice, and begins the slide down the slippery slope of careless carnival style tandems. Educating your students as to the full responsibilities and dangers of the activity they choose to participate in is the only responsible thing to do.

When you hear your students say something "Time to sign mt life away." as they fill out the waiver, do you educate them as to the real purpose of the waiver?

When they ask if they can do "flips" do you educate them of the increased danger?

This bullshit attitude that tandems are a ride is totally unacceptable. The manufacturers say so, the USPA says so, the course directors say so, and the PROFESSIONAL Tandem INSTRUCTORS say so.

Look at your rating card folks. It says instructor for a reason. If you're unwilling to be one, hand it over.

finally a voice of reason from a seasoned Tandem Instructor

and to stirr the pot: wouldn't it be nice if most of the "meat hauler fraction" forgot what they were trained to believe (massive brainwash?) when the first got their vector-rating?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[piisfish 135]

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Thus, my poll is for the other side of that coin, where the passengers are not fully aware of the risks.

And so far, it's 3-to-1 that thinks it's a bad idea.

in that case, I also think it is a bad idea.

For the actual record, I would have recommended 2 TI's, so they can replace eachother on jumping or passenger slot

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[erdnarob 1]

I agree with you provided that after say 20 jumps the tandem master uses a 100 pounds potato bag as passenger.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[hallux 0]

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That guy was dead on about them being passengers though and not students.

They will only be passengers if you allow them to be, if you are so inclined to treat them like passengers, then that's what you'll get. I've got 5,500+ jumps with tandem students, mainly because I believe it is my responsibility to treat them as such.

Considering someone a passenger and calling it a ride is a major disservice, and begins the slide down the slippery slope of careless carnival style tandems. Educating your students as to the full responsibilities and dangers of the activity they choose to participate in is the only responsible thing to do.

When you hear your students say something "Time to sign mt life away." as they fill out the waiver, do you educate them as to the real purpose of the waiver?

When they ask if they can do "flips" do you educate them of the increased danger?

This bullshit attitude that tandems are a ride is totally unacceptable. The manufacturers say so, the USPA says so, the course directors say so, and the PROFESSIONAL Tandem INSTRUCTORS say so.

Look at your rating card folks. It says instructor for a reason. If you're unwilling to be one, hand it over.

I believe you have a over inflated sense of self.

What you are saying is that you force them to be students. WOW sounds fun. NOOOOOTTT!!!

I think the better approach is to show them a good time and teach them a little too. A nice mix of carnival and education. Dont overdo it and dont scare the shit out of them with the danger parts. Seems like all you want to do is talk to them about how dangerous it is so that you look like some cool instructor guy.
I use the canopy ride to talk to them about the sport and try to sell them on it. A good instructor can read people and can tell who might actually be a candidate for skydiving. Treating 60yr old grandma like a full fledge student is a waste of your time and theirs. She just wants to have fun.
If someone is doing IAF then by all means they are a student and should be treated as one.

I guess there are varying degress of treating like a student. there is a big difference between letting someone pull a golfball and a full out instructional jump.

Why force someone to be a student when all they really want is a ride? Like I said, a good instructor will talk to the student before hand and get a feel for how they should treat the customer. Remember a tandem is more of a introduction to the sport. So try to show them a little of it all. Mostly the fun!!!

[billvon 2,435]

>Seems like all you want to do is talk to them about how dangerous it is
>so that you look like some cool instructor guy.

I talk to them about how dangerous it is because it IS dangerous and they deserve to know. Deceiving them about the danger is unethical and morally wrong.