SL Idea - Riggers, what do you think?

[Unstable 8]

I've been at rigging for only about 9 months, and I'm not claiming to be a know-it-all. I have an idea to improve SL student equipment, but the fact that it hasn't been impleminted (as to my knowledge) says that there is a flaw, and maybe someone can help me find out why.

In dealing with our clubs student rigs, I have become well acquainted with the pro's and con's of using spring-loaded main Pilot Chutes. (We train SL with Student Wings, and students use a Ripcord with a spring loaded PC until off Student Status)
While avoiding arguments on initial Training Methods, the thought of using hand-deployed systems for students would be a pain to switch out the spring loaded and hand-deploy pilot chutes out for everytime we switch between a freefall studend and one still on SL)

Can a Hand-deployed main PC be used in a SL configuration?

What about this...Main PC in packed IN the container similiar to a Pull-out system. A velcro PC assist strip at the base of the PC, of course, connecting to the SL. The Rig is closed with the Pin from the SL, with the SL snaking inside connection to the hand-deployed PC via the assist strip. The strip would clear it of the burble, much as the Spring is Suppose to do, and would reduce the Pack-volume on the student containers.

What do you think - why would this idea not work? Are there any other benefits?

=========Shaun ==========

[diablopilot 2]

I can only think that a far easier and reliable change would be to go to an IAD progression.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Unstable 8]

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I can only think that a far easier and reliable change would be to go to an IAD progression

I'm not disagreeing with you. I can't help but think that the Spring loaded system is outdated in both training and application, and so My train of thought is to remove it without inducing the negatives of an IAD system. There are many dropzones which choose SL, and I prefer the system myself. I guess I am just trying to have the best of both worlds...

=========Shaun ==========

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Can a Hand-deployed main PC be used in a SL configuration?

In short, "Yes", its been done.

However, sounds like you're asking an age-old question, "How can we minimize or eliminate switching rigs back and forth from a Static Line (SL) set-up to AFF?"... regardless of whether or not your AFF students are using rip-cords with spring-loaded main pilot chutes or hand deploys.

On the "pilot chute assist" type set-up that it sounds like you're describing, I believe that both spring loaded and regular (non-spring loaded) pilot chutes have bee used on SL rigs, but in both cases, the pilot chute is inside the main container. The pin that closes the main container is on the SL, obviously, and then the SL then continues inside to be attached to the main pilot chute to "assist" it out as the student falls away from the aircraft, SL opens the main container, etc. etc.; the SL providing this assist the the main pilot chute by being attached to the apex of the PC either with break cord (seen) or (I've heard) Velcro used. Think of a SL with a non-spring loaded PC as a pullout that is activated by a SL. Also, while I say such things have been done, I'm not saying its a good thing or a bad thing... I'm sure though folks will be along with their 2 cents one way or the other.


IMO, I've never been a fan of pilot chute assist SL set-ups, but rather I like "direct bag" SL set-ups if you're going to do SL.

The potential exists for the student to "grab and hold" the PC on a pilot chute assist set-up and/or sit on the toilet out the door and trap the PC under their ass or horseshoe it or something.

Where as with a direct bag SL set-up, unless the SL breaks before the main container is open or the JM is a total moron and doesn't hook up the SL before dispatching the student, the student is going to get something over his or her head on exit... sure there are downsides to direct bag SL systems too (line twists are common, and little to no freefall time, etc.).

Anyway, just my 2 cents. OBTW, earlier in life, I was a SL Jumpmaster and put students out on both pilot chute assist and direct bag SL systems.

As for your last 2 questions...

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What do you think - why would this idea not work? Are there any other benefits?

... not sure how to help answer those. If you're looking for a way to not have any conversion time between rigs set-up for SL and AFF, I don't think there is really a 100% way of doing that, other then what DP suggests, go IAD rather then SL. I've seen DZs go this way for this very reason OR only offer Tandem or AFF and not do SL or IAD is another (similar) approach I've seen.

Enjoy.

Let us know what ya'll decide / figure out.

[peek 20]

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I can't help but think that the Spring loaded system is outdated in both training and application...

It seems to be more outdated among those who think they must use the "latest" gear or among those who do not like closing the rigs.

Spring loaded pilot chutes work despite their problems, (which are few as far as safety and reliability go).

[JohnRich 4]

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I can't help but think that the Spring loaded system is outdated in both training and application...

It seems to be more outdated among those who think they must use the "latest" gear or among those who do not like closing the rigs.

Spring loaded pilot chutes work despite their problems, (which are few as far as safety and reliability go).

That's why every rig still uses one on the reserve parachute, for when the chips are down and your life is on the line. At those times, what do you put your trust in to save your butt? A spring-loaded pilot chute! That's hardly "outdated".

[diablopilot 2]

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I can't help but think that the Spring loaded system is outdated in both training and application...

It seems to be more outdated among those who think they must use the "latest" gear or among those who do not like closing the rigs.

Spring loaded pilot chutes work despite their problems, (which are few as far as safety and reliability go).

I think that we should train skydivers on gear that most closely resembles that which they will be jumping.

Skydivers stopped jumping spring loaded a long time ago.

Oh, wait. I did jump a spring loaded main 2 weeks ago.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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I can't help but think that the Spring loaded system is outdated in both training and application...

It seems to be more outdated among those who think they must use the "latest" gear or among those who do not like closing the rigs.

Spring loaded pilot chutes work despite their problems, (which are few as far as safety and reliability go).

That's why every rig still uses one on the reserve parachute, for when the chips are down and your life is on the line. At those times, what do you put your trust in to save your butt? A spring-loaded pilot chute! That's hardly "outdated".

You know there was a time where people would say "When the chips are down and my life is on the line I want my reserve out in front of me where I can see it!"
And so there was a lot of resistance to piggy back systems.

We still jump spring loaded P/C's on reserves because people are resistant to change, and they work "good enough".

There is a manufacturer that makes a container with a throwout reserve P/C. It does have the drawback for some people of not being AAD compatible. I would jump one if they were commonly available as they have the advantage of being able to place the pilot chute into clean air.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[seal_S49 0]

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sure there are downsides to direct bag SL systems too (line twists are common,

I've trained hundreds of students how to fix that, and so far none has ever failed to do so successfully--pretty small inconvenience considering the reliability of direct-bag. Anyway, line twists are a possibility w/ any system.

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and little to no freefall time,

I consider that an advantage after seeing unstable SL exits that result in rotation. It's not supposed to be a FF jump.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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I can't help but think that the Spring loaded system is outdated in both training and application...

It seems to be more outdated among those who think they must use the "latest" gear or among those who do not like closing the rigs.

Spring loaded pilot chutes work despite their problems, (which are few as far as safety and reliability go).

I think that we should train skydivers on gear that most closely resembles that which they will be jumping.

Skydivers stopped jumping spring loaded a long time ago.

Oh, wait. I did jump a spring loaded main 2 weeks ago.

Ah yes... this is one of the "tried and true" arguements in skydiving... I think this, along with "the great RSL debate" & "SOS vs. 2-Handle systems for students debate"... and I'm sure the soon to come, "Skyhook vs. sans-Skyhook debate"... will continue in skydiving until the end of time or until we invent anti-gravity belts & rocket boots.


Sorry, DP, gotta disagree with you on this one... while I "see" your theory about training students on gear that most closely resembles that which will they will be jumping... I'd pose that one ought to balace that with the vast majority of folks who come out to do an AFF only ever do one or maybe a handful, so, a rip cord & spring loaded main set-up is, IMO, more suitable for such & does closely resemble what the few who do complete AFF and continue skydiving will be jumping.

Disagee?

Okay


... however... having said that... sure, lots of places are putting AFF students out on hand deploys from the get-go, so, it does work... just all depends on the quality of instruction...

[seal_S49 0]

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There is a manufacturer that makes a container with a throwout reserve P/C.

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they have the advantage of being able to place the pilot chute into clean air.

And do they have the advantage of being deployable w/ left or right hand?

[diablopilot 2]

That sort of thinking is flawed, the second you dumb down the sport to suit "carnival riders".

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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That sort of thinking is flawed, the second you dumb down the sport to suit "carnival riders".

DP,

How can you say that?

Do you have no respect for the 1000s and 1000s of skydivers that have gone before you and learned to skydive on rigs with rip-cords and spring loaded pilot chutes on their mains? And/Or those many many skydivers that learned to jump when it was, if you wanted to jump it was belly-warts, capewells and the SL progression?

Come on now. I could say the same thing about your thinking that anything which came about in the sport before y'all graced it with your presence is flawed.




Anyway, you don't agree with me.

I can live with that.

[diablopilot 2]

The technology has changes and training has changed with it.

You cited the reason for using spring loaded P/C's being that people who had no intention of continuing in the sport past one jump would be safer with that equipment.

I counter that if an instructor is training anyone to do a canival ride, rather than to become a proficient skydiver, they should re-consider being an instructor for those persons.

Spring loaded P/C's have their place in the sport, but not on the main's of those becoming skydivers.

They pose signifigant problems in AFF as well.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

*sigh*

I hesitate to continue this, but...

At what point did I say proper training and good instruction wasn't a must? It is.

I ceratinly agree that 1st jump AFF students have and will be properly trained to jump with hand deployed PCs... but... my point is... at the same time, with proper training to those considerations, a rip-cord & spring loaded main PC set-up is just as acceptable.

Guess what!!?? There's advantages and disadvantages to both!! Wow!!!

That's my opinion as, it would seem to be, the opinion of many DZOs, the USPA and many AFFIs as that both systems are still in use at many places... disagree and crucify "spring loaded main PCs for students" simply becasue YOU view it as out-dated technology if you must. I just don't, yet, throw it on the same "out dated" pile as you do.

[diablopilot 2]

I never said it was outdated technology, it's just not sutible for training skydivers to become skydivers IMO.

Spring loaded P/C's have their uses.

By your logic we should still train skydivers with rounds and belly warts, and AFF would never have come about.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

*double sigh*

DP,

I understand what you're trying to do... add as many knots to the bullet your using to try to make your point, but trying to read too much into my posts to make your point is poor.

I never said nor meant to say that I had any sort of "logic" that we should train skydivers with rounds and belly warts nor that AFF shouldn't have come about. I have great respect for folks who came up in the sport then, but that stuff is truly outdated.

However...

You're seeming to be saying silly things too.

Like I could say something as silly as, "By DPs logic we should train skydivers to become skydivers by putting them out on Velocity 97s or some other suitably 2.0+:1 loaded high performance canopies".

Please, think on this, a big TLO if student status is to teach someone how to save their life... i.e. how to use a parachute to safely make an intentional descent from an aircraft.

I see your opinion that hand deployed main PCs for AFF students is your preference, but in my opinion and it would seem many other reputable folks in the sport as well, a rip cord / spring loaded main PC on student gear is just as suitable for that as well.

Let me ask you this... would you never work as an AFFI at a DZ that used rip cords / spring loaded main PCs on its student gear? If you went to the DZO and/or Chief Instructor at such a place and got all over them about it not being suitable, how far do you think you would get? Be realistic.

[diablopilot 2]

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would you never work as an AFFI at a DZ that used rip cords / spring loaded main PCs on its student gear?

I have in the past, more than likely will pass on the opportunity in the future.

Like I said, *I* don't think it's a good idea.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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would you never work as an AFFI at a DZ that used rip cords / spring loaded main PCs on its student gear?

I have in the past, more than likely will pass on the opportunity in the future.

Like I said, *I* don't think it's a good idea.

Fair enough. I cannot fault you for not sticking to your convictions.

Cheers.

[stratostar 5]

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They pose signifigant problems in AFF as well.

Well let's see, I can think of a few things better for AFF or S/L students on ripcords.

1. less chance of pin getting pulled/pushed out in the plane or climb'n out.
2. less chance of premature opening due to pin getting pulled due to bridal getting lose & flapping.
3. less chance of of horse shoe around the arm at pull time.
4. can't get handle pushed into a BOC.
5. Better chance of clean opening when tumbleing.
6. Can also be pulled by R-side JM as well
7. Can use same rig for S/L with PC assist
8. packing PC is standardized
9. Cheaper to get then HD's, now that guys like you think SPC's are "un-modern"
10. Don't have to replace BOC's on the student rigs.

Those are just a few reasons I would have no problem using spring loaded PC's for AFF or other types of student jumps, we have used them for years and great success doing so. About the only good argument I can think of for not using them is PC hesitation you find with weak springs.

Not saying I have a problem using HD PC's for aff, I have used both with good results.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,433]

>A velcro PC assist strip . . . .

The system you describe above is the system I started jumping on - Strong Starlite rigs with DC-5 mains and 26' reserves. It works but you have to maintain the velcro religiously; it wears out fast and is important for clean deployments. This system seems to give cleaner deployments than direct bagging, although DB is a somewhat more reliable system.

[jdthomas 0]

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While avoiding arguments on initial Training Methods, reply]

Well you tried to avoid the training method debate but it just didn't happen.. maybe next time!

Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

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[Unstable 8]

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The system you describe above is the system I started jumping on - Strong Starlite rigs with DC-5 mains and 26' reserves. It works but you have to maintain the velcro religiously; it wears out fast and is important for clean deployments. This system seems to give cleaner deployments than direct bagging, although DB is a somewhat more reliable system.

Thank you, Bill. This is exactly the info I was looking for.

=========Shaun ==========

[riggerrob 558]

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>A velcro PC assist strip . . . .

The system you describe above is the system I started jumping on - Strong Starlite rigs with DC-5 mains and 26' reserves. It works but you have to maintain the velcro religiously; it wears out fast and is important for clean deployments. This system seems to give cleaner deployments than direct bagging, although DB is a somewhat more reliable system.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Exactly!
Circa summer 1990, we dropped thousands of S/L students at Skydive Long Island using that exact system.
It worked great, except when students back-looped off the step.
Tee!
Hee!
Over the last 25 years, I have worked (jump-master and rigger) with all the above-named systems, plus some military-surplus fore-and-aft gear.

In conclusion, I far prefer IAD leading to throw-out pilot chutes on freefall students.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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n conclusion, I far prefer IAD leading to throw-out pilot chutes on freefall students.

All that be as it may... seeing an PC "out" and the student and JM moving around in the back of the airplane with the door open getting ready to do an IAD still gives me the hebey-geebies...