Here's a point of view to discuss.

[racer42 0]

Agreed.

Maybe I'm still new to this internet thing, but I frequently get these absurd emails from friends quoting some unknown newspaper article or TV show that says this or that ...right or left yada yada. Just cause it's in print doesn't make it true or even interesting.

L.A.S.T. #24
Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team
Electric Toaster #3
Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor
Co-Founder Team Happy Sock

[SBS 0]

the fact that it was founded on Christian PRINCIPLES is undeniable.

---------------

Actually, Christian principles, yes, in essence, but I believe that the founding fathers were considered Diests (?), those who do not identify with a specific and personal god, rather a higher power that is not defined.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[billvon 2,435]

>I have friends who are doctors, nurses, and police officers.

Me too. I'm engaged to one, and she works in a child-care clinic in San Diego, where you'd expect a lot of spanish-only speakers. No significant problems. About half the office speaks spanish, and she knows enough 'medical spanish' to get by.

>I'd challenge your 'thousand times greater' stat. Taking into account
> the MILLIONS of $$ taxpayers pick up in medical costs ALONE for
> illegals who speak no English makes me seriously doubt your
> assertion.

Piece o cake. The CDC calculates that smoking alone costs 157 billion in health care costs a year. If you are asserting above that it costs several million to provide interpreters for non-english-speaking people, then it's more like tens of thousands times cheaper to let a spaniard speak spanish in a US clinic than let an american smoke.

>ATCs have other duties than clearing skydivers to jump.

And translators do more than translate for illegals. They also translate for paying (and legal) visitors, for US citizens who can speak english but can speak spanish much better (and who want to understand what cervical cancer means) and for deaf americans who can't speak at all.

>NON-U.S. CITIZENS HAVE NO RIGHT TO BURDEN U.S. TAXPAYERS
> NEEDLESSLY. Wanna work? FINE! Bring your family? FINE. Get special
> treatment at taxpayer expense? HELL NO!

I agree; they get the same treatment as everyone else.

> Come here illegally? HELL NO!

I agree here too. If they are here illegally, then they get deported.

>You have to think long term with this language thing. These folks
> come here and do not leave as a general rule of thumb. When
> Johnny, Jr. grows up speaking only Spanish and doesn't grasp
> English all that well, then he himself has a kid who doesn't grasp
> English all that well, how do you think they identify themselves? As
> Americans? Nope. They're citizens, being born here, but do NOT
> identify themselves as Americans. Not a good thing at all.

So only if he speaks a language that we took from Great Britain will he think of himself as an American? God help the native american who speaks Navajo! Heck, if he wants to speak that, send him back to . . . uh . . .

There is a lot more to being an american than speaking english.

>Picasso or Dali's works would be admired by folks all over the world
>regardless of where they were painted. Their exclusion would have
> little effect on their legacy as artists.

I agree, and I am proud to live in a country that would allow artists of their caliber to stay even if they choose not to speak our language. We as a country are better off as a result. Whether the people who come here paint, or design computer chips, or even serve food in a restaraunt, we are better off because we have people here who are willing to risk a lot (even the wrath of people who would exile them because they can't speak three languages) to be here.

[TheAnvil 0]

Interesting Bill. Can't argue with you on the smoking thing - I hate the stench of smoke myself; odd for the son of a tobacco farmer. Though I can't stand smoke, I care even less for the losers suing the tobacco companies and loathe those representing them in court.

I've never met anyone who both signs and translates foreign languages and I'm a language buff. Interesting point about translators too - American and British sign languages are totally different for the most part but deaf people from both countries read and write.

However Bill, you TOTALLY dodge my main point - the fact that language is a binding factor in any nation-state. Yes, we took the language from Great Britain. Big deal. German missed becoming the official language of the US by only ONE VOTE in the Senate in the early years of US history. If you think the course of history wouldn't have taken a different turn had that happened, think again. Navajo, Souix, Seminole, Dakota, Cherokee and several other languages do exist in the US - find me a significant # of people who speak them natively that DO NOT speak English. You'll be hard pressed to do so and I'd be really surprised if you could find even one diaspora.

As I stated earlier - Georgia, Lithuania, Croatia, Kazakhstan, and MANY other nationalistic movements have been able to survive under the harshest repression. Why? LANGUAGE. Having subsets of a nation that do not speak the official language of that nation IS a destabilizer. History is replete with examples of this and those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. As far as I'm concerned, learn English if you are going to stay here.

Beers,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Ahhhhhh Grand Master....I believe you are correct in that. At least some of them were Deists if memory serves. God was referenced several times in the Declaration of Independence and I know that prayer did happen during the formation of the Constitution....I must read up on this....interesting......

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[wmw999 2,150]

Quote

Christian principles, yes, in essence, but I believe that the founding fathers were considered Diests

Taken in context, the fact that the founding fathers were Deists rather than "straight-up" christians is kind of impressive. In America, at that time, the overwhelming majority of the people they associated with were christians. The books were often religious in nature. Christian principles were part of the background.

When your whole context is Christian, it's hard to see that in an external light.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Iflyme 0]

Quote

I just want to say if you are coming to this country to work , LEARN ENGLISH , it's only fair to the people that live here

I have a problem with this sort of attitude. The language you speak is your choice alone, and no one elses business. Considering the vast amount of immigrants in your country, perhaps YOU should try to learn THEIR language as a courtesy to them!

[Ducky 0]

Quote

150 years ago citizens were saying things like this in support of slavery. It sounds good but it's stupid.

Sometimes your the bug, sometimes your the windshield. Sometimes your the hammer sometimes your the nail. Question is Hun, Do you wanna get hammered or do you wanna get nailed?????

[Push 0]

This is not aimed at TheAnvil, but at the argument in general:

I live in Canada, but I assume that the language discussion applies to all America-like countries. My grandparents live with us here in Canada. We pay slightly increased taxes (I believe) because we are their legal supporters. We are citizens, we actually had to write a test on Canadian history to become citizens. My grandparents try to learn English, but it's next to impossible at their age. While they try, they can barely buy groceries without an interpreter, and that took over a year to achieve.

Health care is socialized in Canada. My grandfather needed a heart operation. Should he not have gotten it because he can't speak proper English?

As to cultural identity, Canada is bilingual. Even if Quebec separates Canada will most likely stay bilingual. I think that this whole language identity thing is just an easy way for people to identify to their country. It either stems from too much zeal for some person's idea of patriotism, or the inability to truly accept diversity.

The United States of America has an undeniable cultural identity, but I don't think it's in the language.

Just my $0.02

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[Ducky 0]

Quote

This is an Editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa Newspaper. (This was forwarded to me via email and I do not know the person's name. This also is not necessarily my opinion, but I do think the person makes some very valid points)

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.

However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is
almost entirely comprised of descendants of
immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish,
Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!


"In God We Trust" is our national motto.
This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest
you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle.

Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But, once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, or our God, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

So perfectly written I feel the need to stand and applaud. This coming from a guy who works and lives in a VERY interantional city. A guy who speaks spanish, writes and photgraphs for a Latino newspaper and website , which he helped the owner (an immigrant from Peru) start. A guy who at his "day" job deals w/ immigrants legal or not on a daily basis and is often forced to be bi-lingual to get the job done. Come walk in my shoes for a day or two and see how ya feel about the language thing.

I have a great scenario in mind: Lets say as the summer busy season at the DZs is upon us that a majority of your tandem and aff students are now recent immigrants with little or no english skills. Furthermore said students have no desire to learn the english langauge. Who is crying foul now? I think some skydiver's would be going hungry, some would adapt as I have (but w/ resentments) and others new greeting would become G-day mate.

Let the flame begin....

kwak
kwak

Sometimes your the bug, sometimes your the windshield. Sometimes your the hammer sometimes your the nail. Question is Hun, Do you wanna get hammered or do you wanna get nailed?????

[billvon 2,435]

>I have a great scenario in mind: Lets say as the summer busy season at
> the DZs is upon us that a majority of your tandem and aff students are
> now recent immigrants with little or no english skills. Furthermore said
> students have no desire to learn the english langauge. Who is crying
> foul now?

Uh, no one. If the DZ wants to make more money they hire bilingual instructors, or use an interpreter (I taught more than one FJC using an interpreter.) If they don't, then those students don't get to jump. Easy.

[billvon 2,435]

>However Bill, you TOTALLY dodge my main point - the fact that language
> is a binding factor in any nation-state.

Not at all; that's a good point. Common areas (parks, stadiums) do the same thing. So does a common media source, a standardized flag, a common code of law, a highway system etc. All these things help unify a nation. Use of any of them should not be mandatory.

>As I stated earlier - Georgia, Lithuania, Croatia, Kazakhstan, and MANY
>other nationalistic movements have been able to survive under the
> harshest repression. Why? LANGUAGE.

It may also have something to do with the fact that they had to. In our early history, we survived a lot of war - despite speaking several different languages (spanish, french) here in the US.

>Having subsets of a nation that do not speak the official language
>of that nation IS a destabilizer. History is replete with examples of
>this and those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

Do you have any examples?

>As far as I'm concerned, learn English if you are going to stay here.

I agree, everyone here should learn english. If they don't they're going to have a harder time dealing with just about everything. In the end, that decision is up to them. As US citizens or legal residents, they have the right to speak (or not speak) whatever they want.

[TheAnvil 0]

Push I've read a lot of your posts and usually agree with you on more than a few things. You never seem to post anything inane. We do disagree here, however.

I hold that Canada's health care system is a disaster because it's socialized, not because of any linguistic abilities of any of those it supports.

I passionately disagree with you when you say that the language identity thing is just an easy way for people to identify their country. It's more than that. If you can't comminicate with a group you CANNOT be a full member of that group. Though my buddy Billvon has been continuosly ignoring the many examples I present, history is REPLETE with examples of nations being destabilized and ultimately dissolved when they do not have a common, uniting language (one of the few things the Russki's did right when they had control of the USSR was to implement Russki as the lingua franca). I fervently believe that a nation cannot maintain its identity without maintaining linguistic coherency.

Good luck to your grand-dad with his heart surgery. My uncle just had a bypass and it went well - hopefully its the same for him.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

OK Dude. Let's put the ole brakes on here.

1) Use of a Common code of law is NOT MANDATORY for all persons residing in a nation-state? I beg to differ Buck Rogers. If you aren't going to abide by our laws GET THE HELL OUT RIGHT NOW. That is NOT an option regardless of what language you speak/don't speak.

2) The fact that we Americans have survived a lot of wars with a lot of languages is true. Comparing that experience with that of the Georgians, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Azerbeijanis, Chechens, Serbo-Croats, et al is an INSULT to the memories of those executed under Stalin/Kruschev/Brezhnev/Dzerzhinskiiy and their cronies. There is NO comparison between the two and NO historical parallel. Nationalism in those areas of the world didn't survive because it had to - it survived because it was passed down from generation to generation and reinfoced because the occupying/repressive forces spoke a DIFFERENT LANGAUGE than that of the general populace.

3) For examples, see the above. Yugoslavia as well. German re-unification is also another great example. Wenn du Deutsch spricht, go read some of the newspapers in the Sudentenland pre-WWII. The English translations don't do it justice. LANGUAGE IS A BINDING FACTOR FOR NATION STATES and a far more powerful one than you seem to realize.

4) If you're going to be a citizen, learn the language. In the long run, it's the best thing for the nation AND your family.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Iflyme 0]

Quote

I hold that Canada's health care system is a disaster because it's socialized,

Uhh -- Canada's health care wywtem is NOT a "disaster" ... while there are some long waiting lists for particular types of surgery, everyone -- EVERYONE in this country is entitled to health care. Our system is a model for the entire world.

[ladyskydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

I just want to say if you are coming to this country to work , LEARN ENGLISH , it's only fair to the people that live here

I have a problem with this sort of attitude. The language you speak is your choice alone, and no one elses business. Considering the vast amount of immigrants in your country, perhaps YOU should try to learn THEIR language as a courtesy to them!

No. Plain and simple. It is our country. The national language is English. When they come here, I expect them to speak English - even if it's rudimentary English.

Just as when I finally go to another country, I should speak at least a little of their language. It is only polite and correct. When I finally go to France, it is my obligation to speak as much French as possible. Same with Spanish, Greek, etc.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[Tonto 1]

You can be pleased you never thought of that. America is the great nation it is because of its massive cultural diversity.

Whoever wrote that drivel is a pipe.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Push 0]

Quote

I hold that Canada's health care system is a disaster because it's socialized

I definitely disagree. While there are many things that can be improved, and I don't believe that it's the best available system, I don't think it's a disaster. Could you explain why you think so?

Quote

I passionately disagree with you when you say that the language identity thing is just an easy way for people to identify their country. It's more than that. If you can't comminicate with a group you CANNOT be a full member of that group.

That is true, and I agree with that. However, it is not necessary for the group to be monolinguistic in order to communicate. It is definitely much easier to hold a union together if they're all speaking the same language, but it shouldn't be necessary. I don't have any real examples because no country ever really went to that great a length.

There has been dissent in the United part of the States of America that should have broken it up, but it didn't. You folks handle disagreements almost routinely, and noone picks up a bunch of tanks and tries to force a change in policy like in Mother Russia. Maybe it will be the first successful truly polylinguistic country. I don't know, but it would be interesting to find out.

Quote

Good luck to your grand-dad with his heart surgery. My uncle just had a bypass and it went well - hopefully its the same for him.

Thank you, but that was an old example, he had that surgery over a year ago and went through it fine
It's good to have a civilized argument that is not about the war for a change.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[SkyDekker 1,147]

Quote

Nationalism in those areas of the world didn't survive because it had to - it survived because it was passed down from generation to generation and reinfoced because the occupying/repressive forces spoke a DIFFERENT LANGAUGE than that of the general populace.

I am not sure I agree with this. nationalism tends to rise when a country is under siege or under attack, perceived or actual. Look at the spike in nationalism in the US after September 11th, 2001. I am sure that in that case it has nothing to do with a language issue.

Countries with multiple languages can be quite successful. Switserland has 4 official languages, Canada has two, China has a multitude, Belgium has two and I am sure there are more. And contrary to polular belief, canadian french is not only spoken in Quebec.

As for your comment on wasteing tax payers money. USA today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-05-13-obesity-usat_x.htm) reported that the cost of overweight people to the healthcare system is $93 billion. Half of that is paid by tax payers! 65% of the American population is overweight. I think that McDonalds is a bigger problem for the USA than a couple of interpreters.

[Genie 0]

Quote

my buddy Billvon has been continuosly ignoring the many examples I present, history is REPLETE with examples of nations being destabilized and ultimately dissolved when they do not have a common, uniting language

I seem to have missed those...

Quote

(one of the few things the Russki's did right when they had control of the USSR was to implement Russki as the lingua franca). I fervently believe that a nation cannot maintain its identity without maintaining linguistic coherency.

So the example you are giving here is that of a country which did have linguistic coherency but couldnt maintain its identity? okkkk...

Im Irish. During our history our language was all but obliterated through a constant effort, with some families having children who could only speak one language and parents who could only speak Irish.. We seem to have managed to retain our cultural identity ok throughout that time.

Quote

Good luck to your grand-dad with his heart surgery. My uncle just had a bypass and it went well - hopefully its the same for him.

Seconded! I hope everything goes ok for him

Genie

[billvon 2,435]

>Use of a Common code of law is NOT MANDATORY for all persons
>residing in a nation-state?

Nope. Try being a prostitute in Nevada, then try it again in New York. See where you get busted. Try opening a mine and polluting in California, then try it again in Kentucky, and see if the pollution laws are different for different people. Kill ten people in Texas and Massachusetts and see if both states treat you the same under the law.

That being said, _most_ of our laws are common, and that does bind us together as a nation. The fact that a few laws are different from state to state does not destroy that, just as the fact that a few people don't speak english doesn't destroy that same sense of nationhood.

>For examples, see the above. Yugoslavia as well.

I asked you if you had an example where a lack of a common language caused a strong nation to gradually fall apart, which seems to be your concern with the US.

>If you're going to be a citizen, learn the language. In the long run,
>it's the best thing for the nation AND your family.

I agree that it is the best thing for the family, and I'd support all such education. I would not support banning US citizens or legal visitors who do not learn english. As a country, that's not what we're about.

[hairyjuan 0]

prove this false: 'in god we trust' did NOT appear on any CURRENCY until about 40-50 years ago. one more lie you'vebeen fed

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[SpeedRacer 1]

actually it was inscribed on coins beginning in 1864. But then it was off & on until 1955 when In God We Trust became the official motto & was ordered to be inscribed on all coins & bills.

Speed Racer
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