Quasar II's with steel flap springs grounded

[fallingfaster 0]

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sorry mate but i think your video confirms the validity of the concerns.

Most definitely. Wouldn't want to have a launch like that at terminal.

Now I'll probably have to visit a shrink/rigger and spend many a session trying to resolve 'reserve trust issues'.

[fallingfaster 0]

I just don't understand how this wasn't found sooner. I might have a 'It'll be right" attitude, but a rig manufacturer can't! This issue really wasn't identified in testing?

[jumpwally 0]

Sounds like you knew about it back then too!
why didn't you post your concerns then?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Hooknswoop 19]

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It was my rig that started this mess

My customer brought this issue to a Strong rep last year. Your rig was definitely not the first time they had seen this.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Sounds like you knew about it back then too! Crazy
why didn't you post your concerns then?

I didn't know until yesterday. I immediately looked up the one reserve I had packed into a Quasar II and called the owner to explain that his rig was grounded and why. That is when I got the whole story about the PC not launching on the ground and him giving his rig to Strong at the Moab boogie. He said they packed it 20 times and "it only failed once". So they re-packed it and gave it back to him. I hadn't spoken to him directly since someone else would drop his rig off for him.

Derek

[DualHawk 0]

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is it just me or does the 'main in pack tray' deployment look incredibly hampered?

Yes, it looked the same to us. In our testing not every Quasar II experienced the same hang up of the reserve pilot chute in the total malfunction scenario (Main still in the tray, riser covers closed). Some cleared the container (as in the video posted) and others didn't. Even one pilot chute hang up is still too many though, hence we tested every possible configuration/size to ensure we had all the data we could gather. As for the weak launch that did clear the tray in the video, would it have worked? I would say, yes most likely, but we want to ensure that all configuration result in the same powerful launch that the 1st launch (no main, risers open) showed in the above video. That is what this grounding, recall and modification is meant to ensure.

Best Regards,
Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[DualHawk 0]

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My customer brought this issue to a Strong rep last year. Your rig was definitely not the first time they had seen this.

Hi Derek,

Yes, there was a Quasar II that one of our employees picked up last year, I believe at MOAB, and brought it back to the factory for testing. The background is that our rep never actually saw the reserve pilot chute hang up, but it was explained to him by the customer that he pulled the reserve handle before a repack off the dropzone, and experience a similar scenario to what is currently occuring. We only had the information given to us by the customer to go on, not having actually seen the reserve pull. We brought it back to the factory, packed it, pulled it, packed it, pulled it, over and over again, 20 times, and all tests that we performed showed a clean, strong reserve launch. We sent it back to him saying that we tested it and tested it, and were unable to duplicate the issue that he described. We never took an attitude of "19 out of 20 is okay". When we sent it back to him we firmly believed that the rig was in correct working order.

As I mentioned in the Press Release, we are active skydivers here at the factory, including Mr. Strong, and we jump our Quasar IIs all over the world. We value our lives and the lives of our customers more than to simply say "19 out of 20" is an acceptible risk. If we had any sincere belief that there was an issue with the Quasar II prior to this issue arising, we would not have kept jumping our own gear all this time or allowing our customers to do so. Strong Enterprises considers our customers part of our extended family, and anyone that has ever stopped to talk with any of us on a dropzone or stopped by the factory for a tour knows how much we value each and every customer that we have.

I will continue to try my best to answer as many questions possible here online. I can also be reached at [email protected] and at (407) 859-9317.

We truly regret that this situation has occured and are doing everything within our power to make sure that our customers are back in the air with their Quasar IIs as soon as possible.

Best Regards,
Tom Noonan
Strong Enterprises

[councilman24 37]

If you think parachute gear, or at least reserve systems, are perfect your mistaken. You can look at the new proposed testing for reserve parachutes and containers at pia.com. http://pia.com/piapubs/TSDocuments/TS-135FINAL.pdf

Under the proposed testing less than a hundred drop tests total are required. And, even though I was on the committe that wrote it I still have trouble reading it, I think only 2 live tests with the main container full are required. And no rig has to be packed longer than 400 hours for the test program. No tests are required at 120 or 180 days let alone two or three years of use.

Now this isn't to say that manufacturers don't do more testing during development and testing. These are minimums.

Most developments in equipment are really fully tested until they get in the field. Lots of examples of issues. Green Star Trac II ("Death Star" long before star wars) harness failing if you opened the reserve head down, throw out PC's before the curved pin. Steering toggle locking systems have went through several iterations. Type 17 risers without reinforcement. The Skyhook has been modified already. Lots of other examples.

Luckily reserve systems are fairly simple. Or at least they used to be.

No manufacturer takes a casual attitude toward safety or performance. And in this instance it less than two weeks for the manufacturer to go from "lets see what's causing a problem with this rig" to the S.B. modifying all rigs with this feature.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[DualHawk 0]

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This issue really wasn't identified in testing?

Forgive me if I am answering these posts out of order, I'm doing my best to get through them and answer the emails and cails today.

Original tests on the Quasar II and Quasar II with Flinger were successful.

Basically as we have seen in our recent testing which lead to the Service Bulletin/temporary grounding: We tested it as pack closure, main tray closed, riser covers closed, and we got 3 consistent results. 1) Hang up like we were informed of by Terry; 2) Weak reserve pilot chute launches like we saw in that video that is posted on this thread; and 3) clean strong pilot chute launches. Enough of each 3 were seen to confirm that there was as issue in this configuration. We also tested in a main out scenario, open container, open riser covers. We saw consist clean strong reserve pilot chute launches in this configuration again and again. Obviously, we want both scenarios to provide the same consistent clean strong reserve pilot chute deployments, hence the SB & recall.

Best Regards,
Tom Noonan
Strong Enterprises

[pilotdave 0]

Video: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=5619

Dave

[councilman24 37]

Thanks,

Thought I posted it this morning when I found it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[hajnalka 0]

Tom -

Hello from CSS, and thanks very much for your personal call to John Lyman today - it was much appreciated.

We're both very pleased with how you're handling this situation, as we'd been rather uneasy about some Quasar II launches over the years as well (as we'd discussed with you.) Kudos for your quick, thorough response to Terry's involvement of the issue. Per his post, it sounds like you're going to a graduated res. PC spring?? If so, excellent .

I really hope all riggers and Quasar II owners take this seriously, and check out the video if this SB involves you.

Once again, thanks Tom.

Dawn, "the other CSS rigger."

[tdog 0]

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Thanks,

Thought I posted it this morning when I found it.

Terry - please give us a background on your video... Was that video shot without knowing it would fail - and you got the smoking gun on the first try? Or, was the rig to the point you could get it to fail every time you packed it?

I am only asking because understanding how gear fails - even after the manufacture says "we are gonna fix it", opens my mind to better understanding.

Do you have any photos of the situation?

[skyblu3 0]

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Yes, there was a Quasar II that one of our employees picked up last year, I believe at MOAB, and brought it back to the factory for testing. The background is that our rep never actually saw the reserve pilot chute hang up, but it was explained to him by the customer that he pulled the reserve handle before a repack off the dropzone, and experience a similar scenario to what is currently occuring. We only had the information given to us by the customer to go on, not having actually seen the reserve pull. We brought it back to the factory, packed it, pulled it, packed it, pulled it, over and over again, 20 times, and all tests that we performed showed a clean, strong reserve launch. We sent it back to him saying that we tested it and tested it, and were unable to duplicate the issue that he described. We never took an attitude of "19 out of 20 is okay". When we sent it back to him we firmly believed that the rig was in correct working order.

When you investigated the first container that was picked up from Moab, was the main in the container when you pulled it and packed it 20 times??

[DualHawk 0]

My apologies, I am now out of the factory headed out on a trip, I will be back late next week. Unfortunately, I was not the person that picked up the container in MOAB, so I can't answer your question, but I will check when I return.

Best Regards,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

[everymansaved 0]

I've yet to encounter a Q2, but from the video/recall, can I correctly assume that they have a large base conical spring?

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[councilman24 37]

I wrote a long reply two days ago, hit the wrong key and lost it. Here we go again.

The rig was new last summer. I assembled it and packed it. I pulled it to see the P.R.O. system work but without the main in it. I don't normally repack mains for customers.

The rig came in for it's first service with the main packed. (Michigan winter in between)
I put it over my shoulder to pull and watch the launch with the main still in it. I do this routinely, either having the customer pull it or pull it myself to see the function. This isn't the only rig that is sometimes has launch issues with the main in it. As I picked it up I thought maybe I ought to set up the video camera. Mainly to show the owner how it worked. But I thought no, it'll work fine and he won't care. So I pulled it. The pilot chute was captured by the side flaps and didn't leave the container.

I took it off, sat it down and took a number of photos documenting the pilot chute and flap position, the bridle location, and the indentations in the bag from the spring. At this point I didn't know if I had done something wrong. But in inspecting the rig it seemed that the side flaps weren't opening far enough and I didn't see anything I did wrong.

I left it as it was and the next day called Strong Ent. to describe the problem. They of course they wanted the rig right away. I called the owner to tell him. He and another friend came over later that afternoon. I closed the rig up without disturbing the pack job and we tried it again. This time the PC did leave the container but was impeded by the side flaps and you could see it hesitate as the PC base hit the flaps. We closed it up again and had the owner put it on and video taped the deployment. This is the video posted. The PC was captured even more securely than the first time due to the main riser covers being tighter when worn. I also have stills of this deployment and one is on my second post of this thread. I sent the video and stills to Strong Ent. that night.

The next day the owner called Strong to discuss sending the rig back with the canopies. He had another container to put the can0pies in. He agreed to send it down with the canopies and it went out overnight on the second business day after it first failed.

15 days after Strong Ent. received the rig the S.B. and P.R. was issued. During this time the investigation went through several hypothesis. The scope of the issue had to be determined and the modifications needed for the fix. When sent in we didn't know if it was one rig, one size, one time period, one material batch, any combination or all. The materials and their specifications used had to be investigated. Strong sent back the rig I sent them packed with a 'quick' fix of removing the steel springs. The opening was somewhat impeded. IMHO by the flaps still being stiff from the reinforcing webbing still in the container. I removed the canopies and sent it back to Strong with my comments. Of course during this time the investigation continued. The service bulletin as issued goes well beyond the early quick fix on the rig I sent in. As I understand it the steel spring and all of the associated reinforcing will be removed, a kicker flap for the PC added, and the PC changed to one with a smaller base coil and stronger spring.

Strong Ent. had delt very fairly with the owner, actually beyond fair. And we'll be getting the rig back with the full modification to look at.

I believe this is an example of a manufacturer responding well, quickly and completely to a problem discovered in the field. Especially appropriate is that they will be covering the costs.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 37]

Base and top are the same diameter. Don't remember if it was a double taper or cylindrical. The top actually had to turn sideways partially to get between the flaps. It can be seen in the original video.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[hajnalka 0]

PC's non-tapered; all spring coils the same diameter. Also the coils are relatively loose and the PC very "tall."

We used to have a Strong-sponsored freefly team with Quasar IIs. One of the jumpers had a 60-something ft2 main, and a ?106 (if I remember right) reserve, and at the time it was the smallest Quasar ever made. The reserve tray was almost as wide as the pilot chute, and it was a challenge to close the reserve container while keeping the spring coils properly stacked .... no matter how short of a closing loop we used. We would always pull-test, check the launch, etc. (We've seen several reserve rides on these rigs, without any deployment issues at all.)

But, this is why I was happy to hear they're changing the PCs, instead of just seeing this as a PRO-system or 'flinger' issue with the steel in the flaps. They've obviously really researched this in the short time since they got Terry's video.

I believe the original Quasars used the Lil' Grabber PC, which would explain them not being affected by the SB.

[mark135 0]

I am surprised that there arent more ppl saying their p/c was impeded when they fired it or are most ppl just sending them in to Strong without trying it.

I know we videoed my ground deployment yesterday.
there was a moment of silence after I pulled the handle before the holy shits started. my p/c never got out of the container.

I for one do not understand how this mod got out of testing. from my understanding it is almost a 100% failure rate to launch a p/c from the tray.

I am very dissapointed to say the least. I should know better than to fall for what I thought of at the time to be an inadequate solution to a non-existant problem. the flinger will go on the shelf right next to the catapult system from reflex.

Bottom line is that in my mind there is no friggin way this system was tested fully. skydiving rigs should not be subject to "gimmicks" in order to try to get a leg up on the compitition.

_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

[sdkd1995 0]

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=5619&string=quasar

[slotperfect 7]

Already posted earlier in the thread:

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=5619&string=quasar

Arrive Safely

John

[hshort 0]

I agree that your life is not worth a few jumps, but this fix is not totally free. Having the rig out of service during the first good weekend in the area since fall, and the shipping charges of $30.00 or so isn't much, but don't call the fix free. And how much value is the lost confidence in the rig worth?

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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During the investigation a quick and dirty fix of just removing the steel still resulted in a similar deployment in my hands. The reenforcing webbing that held the steel was enough to retard the PC. Hence the S.B. will include removing that reenforcing, the addition of a kicker flap and a new PC with a smaller bottom diameter.

Terry, and hopefully DualHawk will see and respond to this too...

In Terry's, above, two things...

1) Are we talking a kicker flap or a kicker plate? There was speculation at my DZ this past weekend that it was going to be a kicker plate, as in another loose thing to hunt down after a reserve deployment and/or buy a new one. Seems like a kicker plate would be a step "backwards" in time?

2) Re... new PC with a smaller bottom diameter... a smaller bottom, or smaller top and bottom?? Tapered spring? Other mfgr's use them and I've had reserve rides on their systems, so, obviously, they work, but their packing instructions usually perscribe stuffing the pilot chute material inbetween the coils as you compress the spring, otherwise "spring lock" can occur. I've also found these style springs more prone to "slipage".


What is your and DualHawk's (Storng's ??) 2 cents on #1 & #2???

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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Luckily reserve systems are fairly simple. Or at least they used to be.

Terry,

Thats a very brave and telling comment you make there. I too have wondered the same thing; maybe we're trying to "re-invent the wheel" too much here.