POV cameras and Jump number.

[Di0 1]

JWest

Nonetheless poor decision making does not mean it the cameras fault.

Unless there are models of camera that mount themselves on your helmet while you don't look then throw themselves into your lines as you deploy slightly unstable or keep your head focused and tilted on something else while you blow past deployment altitude, it's *never* the camera fault. There is no such a thing as "camera fault", it's *always* the jumper's fault, sort of speak, even when the camera gets in the way.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[DSE 3]

peek

******

For the rest, my GoPro is the most invaluable self-debriefing tool that I have.

Specifically, exactly, how? I struggle with understanding how one can "debrief themselves" from their own POV camera. Truly, I'd appreciate learning more. A video example would be most helpful, with commentary on what you learned from said jump.

Douglas, I'm going to respond to your post, but my comments are to everyone. I have been thinking about experienced level and the use of cameras for quite some time.

Please note that I will not address the dangers of skydiving with these devices, but am simply trying to explain how they are thought of by some younger jumpers.

About a year ago I communicated with another younger jumper who posted about small format cameras, and he too received quite a lot of grief from experienced jumpers. However, what I learned from him was that newer/younger jumpers view small format cameras differently that many of us older people do.

Many of us think of video during a skydive (both freefall and canopy flight) as a tool to use to evaluate performance (in a "debrief"). Indeed it is good for that. In fact, so good that many of us cannot imagine why a person would want to take a camera along unless it was used for such a purpose.

However, we now have a generation of people that do not necessarily assume that use for their cameras. Cell phones with built-in cameras, and small format cameras are so common that many people wonder why we would not want to use them as often as we can. To them, it is not about the quality of the video.

In many cases, the "debrief" that they are referring to is simply use as an "event logger", reminding them of what happened on the skydive, not necessarily showing it, or using it to evaluate performance. It is a way of getting "more for their money" by being able to re-live the jump.

Skydiving has managed to become rather expensive, so getting as much for their money makes sense to them.

(Once again, I am not discussing the dangers.)

I disagree with much of your premise.
This is the "me" generation. In my industry for example, we've watched the trend away from television to youtube now to social media. It's all about raising your hand the highest and getting the most "likes." Yes, an event logger, one to be shared with the world.
Unfortunately, a couple things haven't changed.
-ignorance of the repercussions of paying more attention to trying to get a cool shot... (Been with us since the advent of the camera more than 100 years ago)
-the way a parachute system works (unless someone's recently changed the behavior of a bridle and PC)

These two things combined, create problems for the jumper and those around him. They are a distraction. The physicality of the camera is a lesser issue than the psychology of the camera. The psychology can easily be trained, but few are willing to take the time to learn, in great part because a camera accompanies everything else they do.
Just a week ago, I witnessed a tandem student arguing why his selfie stick would be cool, and no danger. 3 hours later, I watched a guy and his girlfriend, both sub 60 jumps, with a selfie stick on a skydive (stick was concealed until after exit).

IMO, it's the entitlement attitude of "me shooting my life and you don't have the right to tell me I can't, regardless of your reasoning." I don't think it has anything to do with "getting the most out of your skydiving dollar because skydiving has gotten more expensive."

[JohnnyMarko 1]

I think I posted it somewhere earlier in this shit show, but I'll say it again...


As someone who strapped a GoPro on their helmet before 200 jumps, ended up in DSE small format camera incident thread, and learned from it, DON'T WEAR A FUCKING CAMERA BEFORE 200 JUMPS MINIMUM!

[peek 20]

DSE

I disagree with much of your premise.

I don't think I created any new premise. I'm just reporting on what I learned from some of the younger jumpers I talked to about cameras.

It would be good for a lot of experienced jumpers to talk to these people with an open mind and find out what they are really thinking.

Good Safety Day topic? Instructional Rating Seminar topic?

[DSE 3]

peek

***I disagree with much of your premise.

Good Safety Day topic? Instructional Rating Seminar topic?

Well...USPA membership was given a powerpoint to offer up for Safety Day... https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17JfC5ng40cxrohRkp0y9ED1pntKq_DI_WJKG3Pf6Dsc/edit?usp=sharing
Nearly 100 dropzones have downloaded it, although I've not seen USPA themselves make commentary.

This topic is also part of my Coach Course; It's seemingly silly that the IRM doesn't address this, because most every coach (fewer than 200 jumps), is wearing a camera.

The BOD had a vote on this topic three meetings ago, how did you vote, Gary?

[Di0 1]

DSE

This topic is also part of my Coach Course; It's seemingly silly that the IRM doesn't address this, because most every coach (fewer than 200 jumps), is wearing a camera.

Uh? It does. Somewhere at some point the IRM does say something about at least a certain number of camera jumps BEFORE flying a camera near a student, so that already includes the 200 jumps minimum to fly those camera jumps. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure it mentions a specific guidelines for flying camera with a student (although it opens itself to the interpretation of being directed at outside cameras and not the coaches themselves, it would be stupid to assume the same advice is not valid for the coaches TOO, right?)

My Coach Course Examiner brought the subject up for discussion during the class.

The director of the AFF-I program at my DZ, when i showed up with my fresh coach ratings said that he wants "new" coaches to fly without camera for sometime before putting one on.
I don't even own a camera yet, so that didn't apply to me at least for the time being, but anyway.... it's unfair to say that this is not addressed.
So even before I talked to a "real" student, I was already reminded 3 times of how/why I should or should not wear a camera in my coach jumps, beside the recommendation for all other "normal" jumpers.

The information is all out there, if people choose to ignore it, it's people's fault.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[DSE 3]

The IRM contains the informative requirements; yet offers no indepth information on hazards, how to manage the camera, where/how to fly, deployment concerns, attention span, etc.

Offering up less than basics/only recommendations in what is almost assuredly common practice, is doing new coaches and the conversation of cameras a disservice.

That said, when the IRM section was written, cameras weren't the size of half a pack of cigarettes for $99.00, either. Times have changed. It's likely time for the IRM to change too.

[peek 20]

DSE

USPA membership was given a powerpoint to offer up for Safety Day...This topic is also part of my Coach Course; ...

Sorry, I may have led you to start discussing solutions. I'm suggesting that we do not fully understand the problem yet.

When I wrote: "Good Safety Day topic? Instructional Rating Seminar topic?", I meant that experienced skydivers and instructors might want to discuss a plan (on Safety Day, etc.) to question younger jumpers about their expectations of small format camera use.

[JWest 0]

DSE

I disagree with much of your premise.
This is the "me" generation. In my industry for example, we've watched the trend away from television to youtube now to social media. It's all about raising your hand the highest and getting the most "likes." Yes, an event logger, one to be shared with the world.
Unfortunately, a couple things haven't changed.
-ignorance of the repercussions of paying more attention to trying to get a cool shot... (Been with us since the advent of the camera more than 100 years ago)
-the way a parachute system works (unless someone's recently changed the behavior of a bridle and PC)

These two things combined, create problems for the jumper and those around him. They are a distraction. The physicality of the camera is a lesser issue than the psychology of the camera. The psychology can easily be trained, but few are willing to take the time to learn, in great part because a camera accompanies everything else they do.
Just a week ago, I witnessed a tandem student arguing why his selfie stick would be cool, and no danger. 3 hours later, I watched a guy and his girlfriend, both sub 60 jumps, with a selfie stick on a skydive (stick was concealed until after exit).

IMO, it's the entitlement attitude of "me shooting my life and you don't have the right to tell me I can't, regardless of your reasoning." I don't think it has anything to do with "getting the most out of your skydiving dollar because skydiving has gotten more expensive."

We aren't the "Me" generation, that's the baby boomers -for obvious reason-. We are the "why" generation. I agree with you that the psychology of the camera is a bigger issue the the physicality of it. I agree that it can be trained, for some it was trained long before they started skydiving. Jump numbers don't give someone this training, it either needs to be formal or from experiences in other inherently dangerous activities. Skydiving has less deaths/injuries than some other extreme sports.

Quote

"IMO, it's the entitlement attitude of "me shooting my life and you don't have the right to tell me I can't, regardless of your reasoning.""

This thought has literally never crossed my mind. The thought that has crossed my mind is " I wish I could see my positioning so I would be able to change my movements/why did this happen/what could I have done better." Being new these are the things I think about all the time.

Remember you can't judge us all by a few bad apples, Idiots will do idiot things because they are idiots.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

peek

Sorry, I may have led you to start discussing solutions. I'm suggesting that we do not fully understand the problem yet.

Hmm? I think the problem is pretty clear. People want to disregard USPA's recommendations and jump a camera whenever they damn well please. Just a couple of points of interest...

a. C-license is the recommendation (not 200 jumps)
b. and, that's the minimum requirement.
c. I don't remember seeing any Mad Skillz exemption?

IMHO as always...

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[pchapman 261]

DSE

because most every coach (fewer than 200 jumps), is wearing a camera.

And I know you've also seen how up here in Canuckistan all you need is a B license (min. 50 jumps) to wear a camera -- and that's very deliberate, down from a C license as it was a decade back. So the newbie coaches with around 100 jumps generally will be flying a camera to help with debriefs, and are doing it legally according to local rules.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

We aren't the "Me" generation, that's the baby boomers -for obvious reason-. We are the "why" generation. I agree with you that the psychology of the camera is a bigger issue the the physicality of it. I agree that it can be trained, for some it was trained long before they started skydiving. Jump numbers don't give someone this training, it either needs to be formal or from experiences in other inherently dangerous activities. Skydiving has less deaths/injuries than some other extreme sports.

Ok let's agree to call it the Mad Skillz generation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DSE 3]

Quote

for some it was trained long before they started skydiving.

Interesting perspective. {tongue into cheek here} That's likely why Outdoor did an article on camera-related sport death, is all these guys have incredible skills with POV cameras "before they engaged in the sport."

I'm a bit slow sometimes; I'd appreciate you helping me understand how something relevant to skydiving might be trained "long before one starts skydiving?" (outside of breathing and visual acuity).

[JWest 0]

I would rather be clumped in with the 'mad skills' crowd than the baby boomers. At least we aren't responsible for the current government and economy but I digress.

I am purely talking about the distraction aspect. I've learned long before I started skydiving that 'trying to get the shot' can result in shit going bad fast. Even when you aren't distracted as a snowmobile hillclimber a small distraction can be a $13,000 mistake. Or doing inverted aerials on skis. shit can kill you if you let the camera on your head distract you.

[Di0 1]

DSE

The IRM contains the informative requirements; yet offers no indepth information on hazards, how to manage the camera, where/how to fly, deployment concerns, attention span, etc.

Offering up less than basics/only recommendations in what is almost assuredly common practice, is doing new coaches and the conversation of cameras a disservice.

That said, when the IRM section was written, cameras weren't the size of half a pack of cigarettes for $99.00, either. Times have changed. It's likely time for the IRM to change too.

Thanks for elaborating. I totally agree in this case, that little chapter does look exactly like something written with completely different setups in mind and does not address the current gear, setup, needs, desires, etc.
You are 100% right when you point out that this is now left to the care of a good safety day instruction, a good coach examiner or course director etc. Not that this is a *bad* thing per se, if you're lucky like me to find amazing ones then it's probably no problem, but yes, I see your wish to have a "Go Pro" chapter somewhere between the SIM and the IRM, since - whether we like it or not - they are now a huge reality of the sport.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[stayhigh 2]

i think the rule is almost dumb as you can't jump a square until you have so many jumps on the round.

stick that gopro, right after your A-license jump.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[wicodefly 0]

I waited to earn a C license and took advice from videographers and others before jumping one. I think I had about 300 Raw jumps before the first jump with one and I rarely jump it unless there is a good reason to due to safety concerns. And even then only on my belly since I am learning to FF.

What I would love to have is a camera (not necessarily a GoPro) built into one of my G3s. As in professionally built in with a little hole/lens in the front as to not create any additional hazards. The gear to do it is probably out there. Does anyone make or sell such a thing?

I picture a little lense on the front of the helmet and a tiny dytter like pack for the electronics, battery, etc.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[wmw999 2,122]

Quote

I would rather be clumped in with the 'mad skills' crowd than the baby boomers. At least we aren't responsible for the current government and economy but I digress.

Don't worry. Whenever your generation gets to be our age, the fucked-up-ness of the world can then be blamed on your generation . It's kind of a natural consequence of getting older.

The ability to better manage distractions while multi-tasking doesn't lend itself to greater in-depth knowledge in whatever is being done. while technology has changed dramatically over the years, people really haven't. And physics doesn't seem to have changed at all

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jumpsalot-2 2]

You're wasting your breathe Wendy .... he's just another ......

Life is short ... jump often.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

JWest

I would rather be clumped in with the 'mad skills' crowd than the baby boomers. At least we aren't responsible for the current government and economy but I digress.

That may be true, but I'd argue the baby boomers inherited those issues. The problem is, based on your attitude and my perception of your argument, your also not willing to become part of any kind of solution to what is clearly a problem.

Do you have a solution to this problem that makes more sense? I'm not sure ignoring the issue by allowing any Tom, Dick or Mary to paste a camera on their forehead is the answer? I. for one. support stronger regulation and training with regards to cameras. And moreover, I'd be the first in line to get that training.

I guess my real question to you is... without insulting an entire generation of skydivers, what would you do to make this situation more safe?

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[JWest 0]

wmw999

Quote

I would rather be clumped in with the 'mad skills' crowd than the baby boomers. At least we aren't responsible for the current government and economy but I digress.

Don't worry. Whenever your generation gets to be our age, the fucked-up-ness of the world can then be blamed on your generation . It's kind of a natural consequence of getting older.

The ability to better manage distractions while multi-tasking doesn't lend itself to greater in-depth knowledge in whatever is being done. while technology has changed dramatically over the years, people really haven't. And physics doesn't seem to have changed at all

Wendy P.

Cant argue with that, haha.



I've suggested that there be some sort of sign off for jumping a camera. short ground school and a sign off jump.

[lyosha 46]

wmw999

...And physics doesn't seem to have changed at all

Actually, our understanding of physics has changed quite dramatically. ;)

[Di0 1]

JWest

I've suggested that there be some sort of sign off for jumping a camera. short ground school and a sign off jump.

Yes, with a minimum jump number to access it, like any other "specialty" course in the sport.
Want to do the Coach Class? 100 jumps.
Want to do a Wingsuit FFC? 200 jumps.
Want to do the Rotation/High-Performance Approaches Course with Flight-1 (Can't remember exactly which one, 202 maybe)? 500 jumps.
Etc.Etc.

Want to do the First Camera Flight Course? "N" jumps.
And I'll take a wild guess, if USPA was to create one today, N=200.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[piisfish 135]

cameras should be mandatory for low time jumpers. They provide proof of their noobyness, and endless entertainment.

Noobs should be FORCED to view a daily 12 hours of other n00b-movies (we call them blue-green videos)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 2,400]

>Want to do the First Camera Flight Course? "N" jumps.
>And I'll take a wild guess, if USPA was to create one today, N=200.

Agreed. A First Camera course is a great idea, as is the 200 jump requirement.