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JWest

POV cameras and Jump number.

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billvon

>Comparing someones ability to forget about a POV camera and the safety of driving
>under the influence.

I'm not comparing the two things. I am showing you that the claim "a bunch of people have been doing it for years" is a poor criterion use to claim that something is safe - whether that thing is drunk driving, jumping a NOVA, not maintaining your aircraft or low time camera use.

If your first reaction to those comparisons is "those are nothing like each other! There are far more variables that go into whether each thing is safe! Just because people do those things a lot doesn't mean any of them are safe" then I agree. (And that was my point.)



Fair enough. I also didn't mention safty. The quote you used was in reply to you saying that "I will just turn it on and forget about it" is not true.

I myself have be "turning it on and forgetting about it" for years. So yes it is possible.

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JWest

***>Comparing someones ability to forget about a POV camera and the safety of driving
>under the influence.

I'm not comparing the two things. I am showing you that the claim "a bunch of people have been doing it for years" is a poor criterion use to claim that something is safe - whether that thing is drunk driving, jumping a NOVA, not maintaining your aircraft or low time camera use.

If your first reaction to those comparisons is "those are nothing like each other! There are far more variables that go into whether each thing is safe! Just because people do those things a lot doesn't mean any of them are safe" then I agree. (And that was my point.)



Fair enough. I also didn't mention safty. The quote you used was in reply to you saying that "I will just turn it on and forget about it" is not true.

I myself have be "turning it on and forgetting about it" for years. So yes it is possible.

See, that's what I think you don't get.
In skydiving it might be a mistake to 'turning it on and forgetting about it". Meaning, people that have done that have been bitten in the ass.
Conversely, it might be a mistake to be so focused on filming that you fuck up because of it. People have been bitten in the ass because of it.

So what's "right"? Technically, neither of them.
Realistically, you only fly a camera when the "skydiving aspect" has become so natural that you can dedicate some of the processing power of your brain to it without letting that to affect your skydiving skill noticeably.
Which means your body position, your knowledge of dive flows, your altitude awareness, your EPs are so hardcoded into you that are second nature, then you can add a camera and fly not like you "forgot about it" but like you have goddamn camera/line-catcher/handle-grabber on your head and you know how to deal with it if you need to.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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My GoPro mount has a cutaway. I've cut the thing away probably ~50 times on the ground in various helmet angles, with eyes open, with eyes closed, whatever.

I pay zero attention to the GoPro because I want a visual logbook, not some fantastic shot. Because the odds of a bridle or lines snagging the mount is very small due to its location. Because I'm as confident in my ability to cut away the camera as I am in my ability to cut away my parachute should anything happen to snag.

I pay zero attention to it - it's not a distraction. The notion of hiring a dedicated camera guy on every jump you do is nuts if you're not in a competitive team preparing for a competition...

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Di0



See, that's what I think you don't get.
In skydiving it might be a mistake to 'turning it on and forgetting about it". Meaning, people that have done that have been bitten in the ass.
Conversely, it might be a mistake to be so focused on filming that you fuck up because of it. People have been bitten in the ass because of it.

So what's "right"? Technically, neither of them.
Realistically, you only fly a camera when the "skydiving aspect" has become so natural that you can dedicate some of the processing power of your brain to it without letting that to affect your skydiving skill noticeably.
Which means your body position, your knowledge of dive flows, your altitude awareness, your EPs are so hardcoded into you that are second nature, then you can add a camera and fly not like you "forgot about it" but like you have goddamn camera/line-catcher/handle-grabber on your head and you know how to deal with it if you need to.



I have thought about that and I cannot disagree with your opinion. It might be a mistake to forget about it. In that case if people believe that the camera should be minded during the jump than it would be bad to mind the camera before you have the basics of skydiving ingrained. However that is not what I am currently contesting. I'm contesting that "turning it on and forgetting about it" is not possible. This is due to incidents from people claiming they got distracted by trying to film something.

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lyosha

My GoPro mount has a cutaway. I've cut the thing away probably ~50 times on the ground in various helmet angles, with eyes open, with eyes closed, whatever.

I pay zero attention to the GoPro because I want a visual logbook, not some fantastic shot. Because the odds of a bridle or lines snagging the mount is very small due to its location. Because I'm as confident in my ability to cut away the camera as I am in my ability to cut away my parachute should anything happen to snag.

I pay zero attention to it - it's not a distraction. The notion of hiring a dedicated camera guy on every jump you do is nuts if you're not in a competitive team preparing for a competition...



Have you cut it away under load?
Remster

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JWest

I'm contesting that "turning it on and forgetting about it" is not possible. This is due to incidents from people claiming they got distracted by trying to film something.



The bottom line (whether it's really your opinion or you're playing the role like a troll) is that you feel you're superior to the literally hundreds of thousands of jumps pitted against your fraction of 1% of the experience you're pissing against.

"Written in blood" may be the hyperbole, but it's accurate. When long-time experienced people offer advice, when hundreds of POV videos online support their/our position, you're that *one* guy who is special (or may be speshul) and we're all a bunch of idiots trying to keep you down.
If nothing else, you've become infamous for your armchair skydiving opinions and the rest of us know nothing compared to you, as you've read every DZ.com post and have analyzed every opinion to boil it down to the bare facts. You've absorbed those facts and therefore are a superior jumper to everyone else who in thousands of jumps, hasn't learned what you've learned via analysis and life experience outside of skydiving.

You win. Go do what you want to do, but be fully prepared to reap the wrath when you harm yourself, an aircraft, or someone else. There have been several Ted's, Sangi's, and others in this online community. Now we have a JWest.

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I don't consider constantly repeating part of the recommendation from the SIM to be considered quality input. "It's 200 jumps because the SIM is written in blood. Cameras are a snag hazard and a distraction." that is not sound reasoning against letting DZO/S&TA give people the go ahead to jump a camera.



As a DZO, it is reasoning enough for me. It saves me time and oxygen debating with hotshots who have less than the minimum requirements.

Time which I'd rather spend doing my job as well as I can.

When you have the 200 jump minimum, feel free to discuss your intentions, and convince me of your worthiness. I may then let you jump your camera at my DZ.

Then again you may show up with 500 jumps and ask the same question. I may refuse. Its my decision and arguing the point will only get you so far.

Your attitude and reaction when faced with a refusal will play a big part in my decision NEXT time you ask for permission to endanger yourself on MY DZ.

That's how us DZO's operate. When you run a DZ, you might begin to see our POV.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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stayhigh

Sangi, whatever happened to that guy? I liked how he trolled.



Well, he thought he knew more than everyone else on here. He thought he was a "fast learner" and that the kids today were better than those before because of the technology available. He thought swooping was easy to learn and do.

He thought he was different and special.
He thought it couldn't happen to him.

Fortunately he was under a 129 Safire instead of his 99 Katana(?) and fortunately missed the concrete by a few feet.

Either would have made it a fatality.

Instead he snapped his spine and put himself into a wheelchair for the rest of his life.

To his credit (and I give him a lot of respect for this) he came back and admitted the error of his thinking. He pops back in on occasion to say "Don't do what I did, don't think like I did."

He now posts under the name "Clipped Wings."
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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DSE

***I'm contesting that "turning it on and forgetting about it" is not possible. This is due to incidents from people claiming they got distracted by trying to film something.



The bottom line (whether it's really your opinion or you're playing the role like a troll) is that you feel you're superior to the literally hundreds of thousands of jumps pitted against your fraction of 1% of the experience you're pissing against.

"Written in blood" may be the hyperbole, but it's accurate. When long-time experienced people offer advice, when hundreds of POV videos online support their/our position, you're that *one* guy who is special (or may be speshul) and we're all a bunch of idiots trying to keep you down.
If nothing else, you've become infamous for your armchair skydiving opinions and the rest of us know nothing compared to you, as you've read every DZ.com post and have analyzed every opinion to boil it down to the bare facts. You've absorbed those facts and therefore are a superior jumper to everyone else who in thousands of jumps, hasn't learned what you've learned via analysis and life experience outside of skydiving.

You win. Go do what you want to do, but be fully prepared to reap the wrath when you harm yourself, an aircraft, or someone else. There have been several Ted's, Sangi's, and others in this online community. Now we have a JWest.

You keep doing this, try and stay on topic. I am not claiming to know to know more than every one or even that I know I lot.

I am debating one very specific point. People keep claiming that it's not possible to "film and forget.' Not only are they claiming it, they refuse to believe that it is possible. I know I am not the only one who can and very few people have admitted it in this thread. I've never jumped a camera, I've used them many times during other "dangerous" activities, I've been on loads when my buddies were filming, I've been on loads when we had outside video. I was capable of 'forgetting' that the cameras were there and stayed focused on the activity. There are many people that are capable of that same thing yet some people in this thread refuse to believe that it's possible.

When you check your reserve pin on the ground and it's straight and properly seated do you put it in the back of your mind or are you constantly thinking about it wile turning points? This is how I imagine that going" and turn, dock, shit what about my pin, and turn, BUT MY PIN, dock, MY PIN!!, turn, PINNNNNN, dock, AAHHHH" Mess up the jump. That doesn't happen, you check it, if its good you go about your jump. If you are capable of putting one thing in the back of your mind you are capable of putting another. You can replace reserve pin with any of the items on your pre boarding checklist. Yes those are skydiving essentials but that does not effect your ability to put them in the back of your mind. You should be able to do the same with non essentials.

I make sure I do everything I can to prevent harming a plane or another person. The safety of others around me is more important to me than my personal safety.

My discussion about cameras has made me infamous! Neat! If something happened to me you guys can say "I told you so." Hopefully nothing bad happens under my 1ish loaded docile 7-cell.

obelixtim

Quote

I don't consider constantly repeating part of the recommendation from the SIM to be considered quality input. "It's 200 jumps because the SIM is written in blood. Cameras are a snag hazard and a distraction." that is not sound reasoning against letting DZO/S&TA give people the go ahead to jump a camera.



As a DZO, it is reasoning enough for me. It saves me time and oxygen debating with hotshots who have less than the minimum requirements.

Time which I'd rather spend doing my job as well as I can.

When you have the 200 jump minimum, feel free to discuss your intentions, and convince me of your worthiness. I may then let you jump your camera at my DZ.

Then again you may show up with 500 jumps and ask the same question. I may refuse. Its my decision and arguing the point will only get you so far.

Your attitude and reaction when faced with a refusal will play a big part in my decision NEXT time you ask for permission to endanger yourself on MY DZ.

That's how us DZO's operate. When you run a DZ, you might begin to see our POV.



That is your decision and your drop zone so I respect that. Thank's for acknowledging that just because you have 200+ jumps does not mean you are ready to fly a camera.

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JWest


My discussion about cameras has made me infamous! Neat! If something happened to me you guys can say "I told you so."



Nobody wants to see that.

I hope you live to a ripe old age thinking everyone else was wrong.

Wearing a camera is not the only decision you will make in skydiving and I see no evidence that you're actually absorbing any input. That's the meta problem here, I hope I'm wrong.

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dorbie

***Sangi, whatever happened to that guy? I liked how he trolled.



He's paraplegic now. I wish he'd gotten away with it. A swoop pond under him and he might have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF578oSkrKk

Fucking shame.

Holy shit, I can't believe he went for that. He was so low! That was terrifying.

Dorbie I know you don't have much basis to believe me when I say that I really am taking in everything I'm told here. I used to work in intel, information is everything to me. I don't think the people who disagree with me are idiots. We came from different times and we grew up differently.

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JWest


Holy shit, I can't believe he went for that. He was so low! That was terrifying.


My thoughts exactly, don't know why he didn't bail either, but I'll bet you he watches that video from his wheelchair and thinks the same thing. That's the difference between talking and doing. It looks ridiculous on video, but whatever was going on in his brain at the time might be the shit that kills you no matter how much you think you'd never do that.

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We came from different times and we grew up differently.


I don't know what you mean by that, but good luck to you.

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After the 360 I thought he was going to land but he just kept going.

I don't mean we, as in you and I, I mean it as a comparison of all the posters in this thread. It's basically a way to say "kids these days" and "old people" in the same sentence; it also applies cultural and environmental context for the basis of the opinions.

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JWest


Dorbie I know you don't have much basis to believe me when I say that I really am taking in everything I'm told here. I used to work in intel, information is everything to me. I don't think the people who disagree with me are idiots. We came from different times and we grew up differently.



I was an accomplished cliff diver and national champion gymnast when I started skydiving. I did handstands on the roofs of cars going down the freeway at 65 mph. I could do a triple twist on the trampoline... at the end of my routine. I once dove 25 feet, head first, into a sand hill. That was 20 years before you were born. Don't, for 2 seconds, think your generation is the first to be "extreme".

I (my generation) was no better equipped to wear a camera at 200 jumps than you or any one else. I didn't know that then. You'll learn this in time.

Now, GET OFF MY LAWN. :)
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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skyjumpenfool

***
Dorbie I know you don't have much basis to believe me when I say that I really am taking in everything I'm told here. I used to work in intel, information is everything to me. I don't think the people who disagree with me are idiots. We came from different times and we grew up differently.



I was an accomplished cliff diver and national champion gymnast when I started skydiving. I did handstands on the roofs of cars going down the freeway at 65 mph. I could do a triple twist on the trampoline... at the end of my routine. I once dove 25 feet, head first, into a sand hill. That was 20 years before you were born. Don't, for 2 seconds, think your generation is the first to be "extreme".

I (my generation) was no better equipped to wear a camera at 200 jumps than you or any one else. I didn't know that then. You'll learn this in time.

Now, GET OFF MY LAWN. :)

Haha, No way are we the first to be extreme. People that pioneered the extreme sports are hardcore. Low safety, low technology, coke, that shit was insane.

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JWest

After the 360 I thought he was going to land but he just kept going.



There was no 360, there was a 270, and after that he was too deep in the corner to do anything but bounce. I eagerly await your inevitable opinion on swooping after you have mastered the art of camera flying.

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dorbie

***After the 360 I thought he was going to land but he just kept going.



There was no 360, there was a 270, and after that he was too deep in the corner to do anything but bounce. I eagerly await your inevitable opinion on swooping after you have mastered the art of camera flying.

Based on previous replies...

I meant 36.0 not 360 ;)

BTW no need to wait to be a swoop god can always do that while learning camera.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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dorbie

***After the 360 I thought he was going to land but he just kept going.



There was no 360, there was a 270, and after that he was too deep in the corner to do anything but bounce. I eagerly await your inevitable opinion on swooping after you
have mastered the art of camera flying.

Totally was a 270, Can't believe he didn't bail at 180.

I already have an opinion on swooping, it's crazy. I enjoy front riser turns but I normally do them around 2k. 720 Is as much as I'll do because I'll hit about 65 MPH (according to my Viso II) and that close enough to cypress firing speed.

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JWest

...I enjoy front riser turns but I normally do them around 2k. 720 Is as much as I'll do because I'll hit about 65 MPH (according to my Viso II) and that close enough to cypress firing speed.



And why would that be a problem?

Or is that something else that you "don't know that you don't know"?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe

*** ...I enjoy front riser turns but I normally do them around 2k. 720 Is as much as I'll do because I'll hit about 65 MPH (according to my Viso II) and that close enough to cypress firing speed.



And why would that be a problem?

Or is that something else that you "don't know that you don't know"?

Is that a real question(s)?

People keep saying "don't know what you don't know" Have you ever thought about how ridiculous that statement is? It's literally impossible to know about everything. Since it is impossible to know everything and people in general are aware that they do not know about everything how can one claim that someone isn't aware that they don't know something? It's why people learn. It's like saying that people aren't aware there is something to learn about. Which again is a ridiculous statement.

But I'm curious, what is it exactly that you don't think I have ever considered/hear of/read about/experienced/discussed that is directly related to my post?

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JWest

****** ...I enjoy front riser turns but I normally do them around
People keep saying "don't know what you don't know" Have you ever thought about how ridiculous that statement is? It's literally impossible to know about everything. Since it is impossible to know everything and people in general are aware that they do not know about everything how can one claim that someone isn't aware that they don't know something? It's why people learn. It's like saying that people aren't aware there is something to learn about. Which again is a ridiculous statement.



Oh the irony, coming from someone whose initial post contained a bold statement about strapping a camera on their head early and doing it safely.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

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Since it is impossible to know everything and people in general are aware that they do not know about everything how can one claim that someone isn't aware that they don't know something? It's why people learn. It's like saying that people aren't aware there is something to learn about. Which again is a ridiculous statement.


Several years ago, I remember talking to some students who were off AFF, but were not yet licensed. They were telling me how they were trying some freeflying with student rigs. The rigs were not freefly friendly. But they didn't know that. They didn't even know there was such a concept as freefly friendly. They just knew there was such a thing as freeflying, and couldn't think of any reason why they shouldn't try it themselves.

Today, I witnessed a non-licensed jumper who had gone tracking. Besides not knowing that he wasn't permitted to do a tracking jump as a student, he didn't know in which direction tracking jumps went, and I'm betting he had no idea why it was important to have a direction, and also why he shouldn't track up and down the line of flight.

These are examples of people not knowing what they don't know.

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