Difference between main and reserve?

[Ms.sofaking 0]

Shouldn't the quality of a reserve be equivalent to a main?If not why?
If so, why are they a fraction of the price?

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

My guess is the fabric. F111 vs ZP.

F111 is much cheaper.

Reserves probably aren't as highly reinforced as they do not have to endure opening after opening, it only has to handle a few.

I do however jump with a guy that uses a reserve as his main, and it has almost 2000 jumps on it.

I'd be interested in seeing some other reasons as well though, I'm sure my 2 are not the only reasons.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Ms.sofaking 0]

A friend of mine and I had this discussion. And I wondered if you could use a reserve for a main.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

You can but it may not be the most pleasant experience. They are designed to open fairly quickly, they will sink quicker since it's a 7 cell and made of F111. It probably doesn't have a very desirable flare etc. It might degrade quicker due to the material and unexpected abuse.

Hopefully someone with knowledge will post and enlighten us a bit more.

The guy who uses a reserve as his main is 60 yrs old and has over 6000 jumps, not sure what his reason is, but I'll have to ask him now because you've got me thinking.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[za_skydiver 0]

back to basics?

maybe its what he knows?

what what the hell do i know?

Some dream of flying, i live the dream...

[BIGUN 1,053]

Hope this helps.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Reserve-Flight-Char-v3.pdf

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

Thanks.
I realize there is always a safety margin, and all gear can probably be pushed somewhat past "recommendations" So after a certain number of reserve rides, should you replace the canopy?
By the way, your post made me wonder if I should've got the PD instead going for the cheaper smart.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[bofh 0]

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Shouldn't the quality of a reserve be equivalent to a main?If not why?
If so, why are they a fraction of the price?

Quality and price do not always go hand in hand...

As I understand it, reserves are cheaper because of the fabric and 7 cells are faster to put together than 9 cells plus the fact that they are sold in larger volumes so the development cost becomes lower per unit. Main canopies have a shorter market lifetime and there are more models out there to choose from so their development costs are higher per unit.

Or maybe is it so simple that people don't come back and complain about their faulty reserve...

[Ms.sofaking 0]

With all due respect.This doesn't make sense to me.
My 7 cell spectre retails at almost $1800 dollars, while my smart reserve was $600.I don't understand why they are sold in such greater volume.It's possible I could go through 3 canopies down sizing before I ever replace my reserve.I'm just curious at what point do I replace it.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Travman 6]

According to the PD article, the PD Reserve was approved in 1989 and has been on sale since. So thats 17 years of sales. The R&D costs should have been covered by now so they just need to recoup costs of manufacture.
Main canopies have a shorter market life, the Sabre was replaced by the Sabre 2 etc... so the R&D costs need to be covered in a shorter time frame.

[kelpdiver 2]

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My 7 cell spectre retails at almost $1800 dollars, while my smart reserve was $600.I don't understand why they are sold in such greater volume.It's possible I could go through 3 canopies down sizing before I ever replace my reserve.I'm just curious at what point do I replace it.

Your prices are a bit fishy - retail and real pricing on the smart is higher, real on the spectre should be lower.

But the main point is that PD sells how many different mains? Versus how many types of reserves? After the top 2 or perhaps 3 reserves, you've covered the vast majority of the sales. No 3 mains come close to that.

[darkwing 4]

In addition to materials costs being higher for the main, mains are generally more complicated. Reserves are rectangular and easier to sew. Mains are generally elliptical, or tapered, and more complex to cut out and sew.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Ronaldo 0]

Just a few ideas:
-Low porosity fabric is about 30% cheaper;
-Reserves have straight panels and identical ribs which simplifies cutting and sewing processes;
-Reserves are usually not customized which reduces production costs;
-Low porosity fabric is easier to sew which probably makes production faster;

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[riggerrob 558]

All good points.
Also remember that mains are made from dozens of different colors of fabric, ... maybe hundreds of different colors, whereas most reserves are made from a single color.
Back when F-111 fabric was fashionable for mains ... I swear that Strong Enterprises used whatever was left over at the end of the month to make reserves.
Hah!
Hah!
Nothing slows down production quicker that having to stop and consult an order form before sewing on the next rib.
Hint, most of the ladies in production don't have a clue what an order form looks like, much less have access to a telephone to call the customer on the other side of the planet ...
"Sorry we cannot answer the phone right now because we are on vacation."

[BIGUN 1,053]

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So after a certain number of reserve rides, should you replace the canopy?

PD has you send it back in for recertification after 20 repacks. Others do not - most riggers recommend not keeping gear beyond 20 years and will advise you along your skydiving path, not only about your reserve, but they are also certifying your harness on the repack cycle.

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By the way, your post made me wonder if I should've got the PD instead going for the cheaper smart.

Please don't confuse quality with price in this industry. I'm a really big guy with several rigs and have Precision, PD, and Smart reserves. I'm not afraid of any of them blowing up if I need them.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[skydiverek 55]

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Precision, PD, and Smart reserves. I'm not afraid of any of them blowing up if I need them.

What Precision? R-MAX, Dash-M, Super Raven, or Raven? Makes difference for the discussion...

[BIGUN 1,053]

I've jumped them all except the R-Max.

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Makes difference for the discussion...

Why is that?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[JohnRich 4]

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Reserves probably aren't as highly reinforced as they do not have to endure opening after opening, it only has to handle a few... It might degrade quicker due to the material and unexpected abuse...

Hopefully someone with knowledge will post and enlighten us a bit more.

Excuse me, but your profile says you have only 55 jumps. And you admit that you don't have any specialized expertise in this area. Therefore, in my opinion, you should refrain from making such uninformed comments as the ones above.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

Thanks for answering my question

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I realize there is always a safety margin, and all gear can probably be pushed somewhat past "recommendations" So after a certain number of reserve rides, should you replace the canopy?

Note that most of the wear occurs during the pack job.

PD reserves must be sent in for inspection after 25 uses or 40 pack jobs.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Reserves probably aren't as highly reinforced as they do not have to endure opening after opening, it only has to handle a few.

Modern reserves are stronger than most mains.

While you should have slowed down to 120 MPH (100 knots) when deploying your main, you may not have that option if you have a low opening, premature opening at high speeds, or are unconscious under your reserve (I saw a design without spanwise tapes across the line groups that separated into 2 and 5 cell sections only connected at the tail when its owner was knocked out, fell in a fast head-down position, and had his CYPRES fire). Modern reserves are rated for a 150 knot deployment speed (170 MPH).

All decent modern reserves all have span-wise reinforcing tapes across the bottom skin (Tempos built before 2001 and Precisions before the R-max don't count as modern). The only main canopies I'm aware of with the tapes are those from Big Air Sportz (Brian says it makes for a more rigid wing that performs better).

In a fast tearing situation, F111 is also inherently stronger than ZP.

Older reserves and mains could be identical - the Precision Raven and Super Raven had bridle attachments and were marketed as reserves and mains.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I've jumped them all except the R-Max.

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Makes difference for the discussion...

Why is that?

The R-Max has span-wise reinforcing tapes like a PD or Smart. Older precision reserves do not.

The -M series used span-wise bottom skin construction with folded seams across the line attachment points. This is an improvement over unreinforced chord-wise construction but not as strong as a reinforced canopy.

The Raven/Super Raven are built conventionally.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

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Reserves probably aren't as highly reinforced as they do not have to endure opening after opening, it only has to handle a few... It might degrade quicker due to the material and unexpected abuse...

Hopefully someone with knowledge will post and enlighten us a bit more.

Excuse me, but your profile says you have only 55 jumps. And you admit that you don't have any specialized expertise in this area. Therefore, in my opinion, you should refrain from making such uninformed comments as the ones above.

Well, sorry to be completely wrong. I didn't notice that anyone exclusively stated their expertise in reserve manufacturing. It's my best guess as to why reserves are cheaper. And based on my first post and all the posts after, looks like I was fairly close. Since obviously your post clearly states that jump numbers = experience. How the hell do you know I don't have a degree in Aerospace Engineering or manufacturing? Oh, wait..I only have 55 jumps so I can't right? Think about your logic before posting smart ass comments.

Be sure to note my choice of words such as

"Reserves probably aren't"
or
"It might degrade"

Man, some people on here have to lighten up. I'm totally sure that someone on here will read my post and buy a reserve as a main and go jump it without a second glance. Riiiiight! Maybe I'll change my profile to say I have 4100 jumps, people on here will do as I say then right?

Have a good New Year!

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Ms.sofaking 0]

Hopefully someone with knowledge will post and enlighten us a bit more.***

I believe you also said this.And I appreciated your response.You certainly didn't make any claim of being an expert.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

This I know, I was just having a casual discussion. Like I said though, some people get really uptight about certain things. I get a kick out of how upset people get. It would be much different if I had told a newbie to do something stupid. Not that I'm not still a noob myself, but I'm honest with myself, know my areas of expertise and where I'm comfortable.

I love using these forums for experience, but I wouldn't recommend them for "advice". I have asked for advice on here, but solely to get another perspective on a topic.

It's all good, no hard feelings, Skydiving has helped me learn not to stress out about things. If I can manage to exit an aircraft, deal with mals, land safely etc...life is nothing. I don't let things bother me, I'll speak my mind, then I'm done with it. No need to stress out about it, just enjoy life, that's why I skydive.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."