Landings ... I am frustrated beyond belief!!!

[shah269 0]

OlympiaStoica
Do you think it was the forward speed that got you or do you think it was the very quick decent that got you.

The canopy that got me had a bad habit of dropping my chunky Persian ass out of the sky from 200ft with lots of forward velocity.

Have you been on any canopies that were a little slower and a little softer or have most of your experiences been similar to mine?

You know for something so simple it’s amazing how complicated they can be.
Stay safe

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[in2jumping 0]

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This weekend I did 12 jumps on a Pilot 188. I have landed in zero wind all weekend ... yet I did better on it from the first jump on ... I even stood up a couple of those landings. Switching from a 7-cell to a 9-cell my accuracy went to shit, but other than that, I was completely comfortable after the first jump on it. The difference in speed was a huge surprise ... the Storm comes in like a damn rocket, no matter how many describe it as "docile". People who have been watching my landings (in hopes of helping me), have always commented "uh ... you were coming in a little hot there"!!!

O

I would demo a 210 Pulse, be easier to pack and packs smaller than a 190 Storm or 188 Pilot. From the reviews it does not have the deep flare point the Storm and Pilot has, which would make it easier to get the timing down on your flare.

[OlympiaStoica 0]

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This weekend I did 12 jumps on a Pilot 188. I have landed in zero wind all weekend ... yet I did better on it from the first jump on ... I even stood up a couple of those landings. Switching from a 7-cell to a 9-cell my accuracy went to shit, but other than that, I was completely comfortable after the first jump on it. The difference in speed was a huge surprise ... the Storm comes in like a damn rocket, no matter how many describe it as "docile". People who have been watching my landings (in hopes of helping me), have always commented "uh ... you were coming in a little hot there"!!!

O

I would demo a 210 Pulse, be easier to pack and packs smaller than a 190 Storm or 188 Pilot. From the reviews it does not have the deep flare point the Storm and Pilot has, which would make it easier to get the timing down on your flare.

Nah ... I'm done being the test monkey for the "newest, coolest" stuff. One mistake is enough for me. I'd rather go with something "proven" that has been around for a little while ...

O

[jjx247 0]

Hey there, having read the first page of posts (and to be honest I couldn't be bothered reading the middle 3, so I apologise if I'm reiterating other people) I just wanted to give you my vote of support.

I've got over 1000 jumps. My landings were a bit hit and miss until I had a bad landing tearing all the ligaments in my ankle 3yrs ago and then my landings totally bombed. I was so scared of hurting myself again that I didn't even attempt to take one step on landing.

It sounds to me like you are doing everything right to correct the problem, getting the training, flying a sensible canopy etc. and you've figured where the real problem lies - in your head!

I did a couple of canopy courses but the three things that really made a difference to me were
1. practicing my flare twice after opening on EVERY jump, so I got a feel of exactly how the full flare feels. I was starting my flare too late and rushing it, now I take my time with it yippee I land on my feet, (but that was just my problem.) I still practice my flares now.
2. strapping my ankles up so I'm confident they won't get hurt (just so the fear doesn't distract me) and
3. telling myself I could do it (although looking ahead and not straight down also helped). Maybe some mental coaching so you believe you can do it will help too?

Believe in yourself and practice with the coaching you've got planned (and keep practicing what you learn from then on) and in a few more jumps you'll be wondering what the fuss was about and enjoying every jump you do. Good luck!

[Tuna-Salad 0]

I like the person who started this thread.. nice to see some sensible thinking...

The comment about upsizing impressed me...

I have a few jumps on the storm... I will not dispense any advice either, seeing that the 210 I jump is probably different than the 190 that you jump.. and my jump numbers means I know jack shit
I now jump a sabre 2... the storm seems to cut through the air smoother but I like the landings on the sabre 2.. and it's a bit zipper too...
don't give up.. All in all my landings have been pretty good, but every once in a while I have a shitty weekend and biff on every landing..

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[skybytch 259]

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it is a good thing to remember that some more speed can be helful for a stronger flare.

Sure it can. If that extra speed doesn't freak the jumper out to the point that they forget to finish the flare (or in some cases, to flare at all).

If someone isn't able to do a good two stage flare on what they are currently flying, going smaller is NOT going to solve the problem.

[skybill 18]

Hi Oly,
WOW!! 5 pages of posts to try to figgure out how to land a ram-air parachute! On the last page jjx said something about the "problem" being "in your head!!" Well, that's the best place to start!! The eyes "see" the enviornment, transmit this info to the brain where it gets processed, figures out a plan of action and sends impulses to the muscles to react!! So what's happening in the brain getting all this stuff processed?? It looks at all your stored info (memory) and analyzes from there. Prior to jumping, how much aviating experience did you have besides flying kites on Sundays?? What's an airfoil? What's L/D? What is the difference between induced and parasite drag?? When under canopy, where is your "CG" and how can you adjust it?? You didn't just jump out of a perfectly good airplane, when in freefall, you"are" a perfectly good airplane and the same goes for being under canopy!! Most of the time, the student gets told,"pull right toggle to go right, and left to go left." Canopy control by "rote!" Crash and burn city. You have to feel and know the air. Like sticking your arm out of a car window at 60mph and bending your palm in the breeze! If we were at the bar, I'd buy us a couple of beers and continue on. 'Been flyin' model airplanes since I could slide the wing in the slot on the fuselage of a dime store glider as a kid, took some flying lessons in a 7AC Champ in highschool, 'been jumpin' (and flying canopies) since I was 18 and it all boils down to "feeling" the air thru what ever control surfaces you have at your disposal. "Fly while you still have your wings!!"

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[KermieCorleone 0]

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Hi Oly,
WOW!! 5 pages of posts to try to figgure out how to land a ram-air parachute!

cute oly = 5 pages of concern and advice
uggo bill = PLF.

cheers

- Neil

Never make assumptions! That harmless rectangle could be two triangles having sex ...

[JohnMitchell 14]

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it is a good thing to remember that some more speed can be helful for a stronger flare.

Sure it can. If that extra speed doesn't freak the jumper out to the point that they forget to finish the flare (or in some cases, to flare at all).

If someone isn't able to do a good two stage flare on what they are currently flying, going smaller is NOT going to solve the problem.

Not necessarily smaller canopy, but going faster on the same size canopy by flying it differently. There must be 50 ways to screw up your landings. Coming in too slowly, in half or more brakes, is one of them.

[billvon 2,400]

>There must be 50 ways to screw up your landings.


========================
The problem is all quite simple here, he said to me
The answer is easy if you take it logically
It has to do with your new tiny canopy
There must be fifty ways to biff your landing

He said it's really not my habit to intrude
Furthermore, I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued
But I'll repeat myself, at the risk of being crude
There must be fifty ways to biff your landing
Fifty ways to biff your landing

You just slip on the grass, Jack
Land in the stands, Stan
Don't finish your flare, Mar
And land on your knees
Toggle turn low, Joe
You don't need to discuss mo'
Just land in the lee, Phree
That lesson's not free

. . .

He said it grieves me so to see you in such pain
I wish there was something I could do to get you in the air again
I said I appreciate that and would you please explain
About those fifty ways

He said why don't you just think on it tonight
And I believe in the morning you'll begin to see the light
And then he left the hospital, and I realized he probably was right
There must be fifty ways to biff your landing
Fifty ways to biff your landing

You just slip on the grass, Jack
Land in the stands, Stan
Don't finish your flare, Mar
And land on your knees
Toggle turn low, Joe
You don't need to discuss mo'
Just land in the lee, Phree
That lesson's not free
======================
(with apologies to Paul Simon)

[d123 1]

This is genius !!!! Can I still this and propragate it under the freestyle publishing rights of BillVon?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[skybytch 259]

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Not necessarily smaller canopy, but going faster on the same size canopy by flying it differently. There must be 50 ways to screw up your landings. Coming in too slowly, in half or more brakes, is one of them.

Let me rephrase, perhaps. If someone isn't able to do a good two stage flare, starting from full flight and ending with all or nearly all forward speed eliminated in a no wind situation, going smaller is NOT going to solve the problem.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Thanks, Bill, for realizing the perfect parody of what I imagined. Can't you just see again all the bad landings you've seen, replayed to the tune of that song?

Dude, I gotta party with you.

Coming to Chicks Rock?

[virgin-burner 1]

and here i was thinking, two-stage were for people who cant FLY their parachutes..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[skybill 18]

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Hi Oly,
WOW!! 5 pages of posts to try to figgure out how to land a ram-air parachute!

cute oly = 5 pages of concern and advice
uggo bill = PLF.

cheers

Hi kerm,
Thanx for the advice on PLF's, with todays' canopies they appear "antique" whereas back when, they were "MANDATORY!!!!" I was never more happy than the day I got my first ParaCommander and 5 kt of wind!! Tip toe standups! Then StratoStars and beyond!! The bottom line,however, still boils down to information, knowledge and skill. 'Ya may recall the old flying saying,"Takeoffs are optional, landings are mandatory!!" If you think landing parachutes is fun, go to your local airport and take some flying lessons in a J-3 Cub, 7AC Champ (65 hp) or the like and try to learn how to do stall landings!!...and if you think those are fun, after you do one or two, your instructor will put you on the 90* crosswind runway and try doing crosswind landings without dragging a wingtip in the dirt!!!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[KermieCorleone 0]

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Hi kerm,
Thanx for the advice on PLF's, with todays' canopies they appear "antique" whereas back when, they were "MANDATORY!!!!" I was never more happy than the day I got my first ParaCommander and 5 kt of wind!! Tip toe standups! Then StratoStars and beyond!!

PLF's are nowhere near antique as you think, save my legs on a couple of my AFF landings ... hurt like a beech but nothing was broken ...

- Neil

Never make assumptions! That harmless rectangle could be two triangles having sex ...

[skybill 18]

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Hi kerm,
Thanx for the advice on PLF's, with todays' canopies they appear "antique" whereas back when, they were "MANDATORY!!!!" I was never more happy than the day I got my first ParaCommander and 5 kt of wind!! Tip toe standups! Then StratoStars and beyond!!

PLF's are nowhere near antique as you think, save my legs on a couple of my AFF landings ... hurt like a beech but nothing was broken ...

Hi kerm,
Pal, as I said PLF's "appear" antique, whether 'ya learn 'em or not is up to the individual skydiver. There comes a time when other than the canopy like squrrily winds, shears or the like that test ones' ability to walk away from the landing. Think FAST, feet n' knees and CRASH! PLF's, good stuff.
As for Oly and her landings, I would hope that they are getting smoother and better.

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[billydelgiudice 0]

Hey Olympia, I jump at JT too. I was the one packing in the shed this weekend. The only thing I would suggest (and the reason I'm offering advice while not having as many jumps as you is because I've been flying planes for 12 years) is learning about aerodynamics of a wing, which I imagine - and hope - is taught in any canopy course. Being a pilot has helped me IMMENSELY under canopy, simply because I had so much training in how and why wings fly. Changing the contours of the airfoil has massive effects on its handling and flaring a canopy no matter how big or small is the same as flaring an airplane; the physics are the same.

[skybytch 259]

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and here i was thinking, two-stage were for people who cant FLY their parachutes..

Not everyone "gets it" right off the bat. Those that don't would be much happier and better off if they didn't have to see/hear/deal with the type of attitude that is often displayed by those who do "get it" right off the bat.

I've been working with my swooper/CRW dog/AFFI/Coach IE/master rigger s/o in a few basic canopy courses this year. With all that experience and knowledge and all those ratings, he makes me - conservative, 1.1 loaded, not gonna swoop ever ME - teach the effective flaring portion of the course.

Why? Because he got it right off the bat and I didn't. I had to be taught how to do a two stage flare, which with practice has turned into me being able to fly the landing. He has no clue how to teach someone to do that, because no one ever had to teach him.

The difference between him and you? He realizes that the fact that he "got it" and I didn't doesn't make him a better skydiver/instructor/coach/person than I am.

[Baksteen 84]

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and here i was thinking, two-stage were for people who cant FLY their parachutes..

Not everyone "gets it" right off the bat. Those that don't would be much happier and better off if they didn't have to see/hear/deal with the type of attitude that is often displayed by those who do "get it" right off the bat.

I've been working with my swooper/CRW dog/AFFI/Coach IE/master rigger s/o in a few basic canopy courses this year. With all that experience and knowledge and all those ratings, he makes me - conservative, 1.1 loaded, not gonna swoop ever ME - teach the effective flaring portion of the course.

What exactly do you mean by the 'two stage flare'? I seem to have my definitions confused.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[skybytch 259]

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What exactly do you mean by the 'two stage flare'?

Without going into the reasons why, we know that a canopy flies with both forward speed and downward speed (descent rate). The ultimate goal of a flare is ideally to eliminate both downward speed and forward speed prior to putting the feet on the ground.

What I'm calling a "two stage" flare is a good way to teach someone how to do the above if they didn't just "get it" from the start. The first stage is from full flight to the "sweet spot" or plane out point - this point is different for everyone but it's usually somewhere around the waist. This part of the flare should arrest the jumper's downward speed.

The second part of the flare is what most people who have issues with landings are lacking - the finish. I teach people that they don't want to stop at the plane out point, but instead use that as the point when they slow down the flaring action - thinking of holding the feet off the ground by slowly depressing the toggles seems to work for most people.

What I'm teaching isn't really "two stage" since there ideally is no pause between the two stages, but calling it that seems to help get the idea across that there are two distinct parts to an effective flare, and that both parts are important no matter what type or size canopy you are flying.

[shah269 0]

To go from
\ to -- to /
sounds so easy

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 2,400]

>What I'm teaching isn't really "two stage" since there ideally is no pause
>between the two stages . . .

Agreed. That's really important to emphasize. There are two parts to the landing, but there's just one motion with the toggles, and there's no one "place" you can put your hands to plane out. It would almost make more sense to call it a "two stage landing" to emphasize that it's different phases of the landing, not different places to put your hands during the flare.

[pchapman 261]

I still go for the "two-stage flare" as the best term for it.

Obviously there's more to it than that. If one doesn't like that one can go too far the other way and call it an infinite stage flare, because in some zen-like one-ness with the universe, without rules and boundaries, man, it is a constantly varying dynamic maneuver. But that's so generic it helps nobody.

And if one gets into landing stages, one could start adding more beyond just two:
- the initial approach
- that first planing out stage of the flare
- the initial planed out stage
- adjustment of the plane out to get to just the right height
- finishing the flare to slow for the touch down or stop
- the actual touch down (which may occur before finishing the flare if sliding out)

But then we can argue about what is a stage vs. a sub-stage, a part of another stage...

Just my personal opinion that while jumpers may reasonably discuss how to best teach flares, I don't think there's anything wrong with calling it a two stage flare.

[d123 1]

> he difference between him and you? He realizes that the fact that he "got it" and I didn't doesn't make him a better skydiver/instructor/coach/person than I am.

To me, this makes all the sense in the world. This is the quality every instructor should have. A natural skydiver is not a good instructor/coach/mentor even for others natural skydivers because (s)he can't relate to what they are experiencing when they don't succeed the 1st time they try something.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!