champu 1 #1 September 10, 2009 It's been recommended a couple times on this forum not to perform pin checks with the door open, but it's usually buried down in the thread somewhere. It's been a few years since it has come up in discussion and I've seen several people do it recently so I figured I'd revive the advice. Pulling flaps open and poking around has the potential to dislodge a pin that wasn't seated very well, and if it's going to happen, you don't want it to happen with the door open. I think it's of greatest concern in the situations where it most commonly happens: on hot days when the door is open above 1000ft and there's a hop and pop on the load getting a pin check. Not only are both the door and the jumper's pin flaps open, but the jumper is also seated/standing right next to the door. If the person doing the check accedentially gets ahold of some bridle along with the main pin flap (and this is entirely possible on just about any rig out there) then the potential for a bad day is very high. I'm also of the opinion that the door should remain closed after everyone takes off their seatbelts at 1000ft until people stop moving around. At some dropzones, if the load is full, it is customary for one or two jumpers at the end of the benches nearest the door to move to the floor so that everyone has more room. Again, this is a lot of moving around, shifting, and leaning back against rigs right next to the door. It would be a good idea to have the door closed until you're settled in. I'm originally from the midwest. Ask anyone that knows me and I'm sure they will tell you I'm amongst the grumpiest people they know when it's hot out at the dropzone. I don't like the extra 10 seconds of being hot. I deal with it. You can deal with it too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amstalder 0 #2 September 10, 2009 Thank you for posting this.... I know Ive certainly had my pin checked with the door open before. I will be sure to keep this in mind during future jumps Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #3 September 10, 2009 Quote Pulling flaps open and poking around has the potential to dislodge a pin that wasn't seated very well If doing a pin check is going to cause a premature opening then I dont want that person giving me a pin check or on the same plane as me. As a matter of fact they should be skydiving! I know this is a blanket statement but are we going to dumb down skydiving to the lowest commen denominator like school?Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humbled1 0 #4 September 10, 2009 I completely agree with you! I have come across an individual at our DZ that has exhibited what I would call "door rage" I understand it is hot at the front of the otter but when you are the first group out, doing video for the first team out, sitting on the floor, next to the door, and trying to get your camera helmet on and final gear checks completed; you DO NOT want the door wide open at 10K. The door is normally fully opened at 1K then closed all but a foot or so around 8K. I have no problem leaving it open a foot or two, but there have been actual confrontations over the door not being open enough for a certain jumper. I am not the only one that has had this "door rage" experience with this guy, but hopefully that will end soon; at least till next summer. personally if you cannot handle the heat or if you suffer from claustrophobia (yeah that was his excuse after we landed and he had just made an ass of himself in front of 22 other jumpers); find a different job or at least a different dz, just my 2 cents. TO the OP: and while I don't know you too well, (lol ok not at all, I see u at the DZ but that's about it) I know alot of people at the dz, and NO WAY are you the grumpiest!! I am not kidding!! GREAT POST!! "Tell ya the truth, I don't think this is a brains kind of operation." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humbled1 0 #5 September 10, 2009 I don't think the OP is trying to say a pin check may cause a premature opening, but that if a pin check REVEALS a problem that could lead to a premature opening if the pin check is done while the door is open and the skydiver getting the pin check is near the door. Isn't the reason we do pin checks to be sure that are rigs are ready to jump? Let's say someones main flap is lifted and the pin, which was not seated by the packer properly and then made more loose by the jumper leaning against the aircraft comes out and the wind from the door catches it? Or even worse; someone does a gear check on a student doing his first hop and pop and his reserve fires due to...well you name it....everything is great till it's not. It is not about dumbing down the sport, it is about eliminating unnecessary risk imo. but to each his own!"Tell ya the truth, I don't think this is a brains kind of operation." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #6 September 10, 2009 Quote but that if a pin check REVEALS a problem that could lead to a premature opening if the pin check is done while the door is open and the skydiver getting the pin check is near the door. Unless the rig that is being checked is hanging out of the door then i dont see it causeing anything going out of the door! A loose pilot chute would easilly go out but if you want to stop that people should do gear checks before they get on the plane! Quote and his reserve fires due to...well you name it.... Reserve fires due to opening the main flap? Please tell me how that happens!? Quote it is about eliminating unnecessary risk And Im all for that! Im a safety nazi! Im super safe at the DZ i check over my gear serveral times and others on the ground and in the plane, but if giving a main pin check is so dangeres then some shouldn't be giving main pin checks or be licensed!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 September 10, 2009 First of all, opening the door for cooling is a LUXURY! If you cannot stand the heat, find another sport. The flip side of that is me doing hundreds of jumps from no-door Cessnas in the "refreshing" skies of Nova Scotia. It was frequently below freezing at exit altitude. Secondly, doors should be closed by 9,000 feet so that people can wiggle around to complete pin checks a couple of minutes before the door opens on jump run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #8 September 10, 2009 Good points, at least one of which I had never thought about. Thanks for posting this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #9 September 10, 2009 >If doing a pin check is going to cause a premature opening then I >dont want that person giving me a pin check or on the same plane as me. Then you wouldn't want me doing a pin check. I once noticed something wrong with someone's container and asked him if I could do a pin check. The dbag fell out as soon as I touched his main container; he had knocked the pin out of his Racer by leaning against the side of the Beech. In a second case the reserve pin had half cleared the loop, but we managed to keep it closed (barely) and get her and her gear up to the cockpit before we opened the door. If your main or reserve is going to open in the plane, it is most likely going to do it when someone opens a flap to check something. If your reserve pin is almost clear of the loop, then pulling on the reserve flap to open it may well be the final straw. If your closing loop is within a single thread of breaking, moving the bridle to check the kill line window may be the final straw. And if that ever happens to you while someone is checking your nearly-open gear, I would suggest you thank them instead of calling them incompetent fools; they may have just saved your life and the life of everyone on the aircraft. In that case, best hope the door is closed. (On the other hand, gear problems like the above may never happen to you, in which case you don't need gear checks to begin with.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #10 September 10, 2009 Quote Quote Pulling flaps open and poking around has the potential to dislodge a pin that wasn't seated very well If doing a pin check is going to cause a premature opening then I dont want that person giving me a pin check or on the same plane as me. As a matter of fact they should be skydiving! I know this is a blanket statement but are we going to dumb down skydiving to the lowest commen denominator like school? if the world revolved around you, nobody would be skydiving anymore but you.. this is the 2nd time you're asking if some poster should be jumping at all that i'm reading of today.. maybe jumping is not for YOU!? oh, and us guys over here dont do pinchecks on others at all; one is required to do that stuff themselves PRE-flight! now, if you see something, your help is appreciated..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #11 September 10, 2009 QuoteI once noticed something wrong with someone's container and asked him if I could do a pin check. The dbag fell out as soon as I touched his main container That is completly diff! That guy either didnt maintane gear well and/or didn't respect his gear gear in the plane! You did not cause that premy!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #12 September 10, 2009 >You did not cause that premy! I was the one who made the bag fall out. One of the reasons for the gear check is to expose marginally closed/open containers; if the container is going to open prematurely, you want it to open inside the plane with the door closed. That's why the door should be closed while giving gear checks. One of the reasons I am pretty convinced of this is that I started out as a static line jumpmaster. Every one of my students got a pin check before they exited. The odds of a pulled pin were pretty high; the static line could get knelt on, the student could open his container while shuffling backwards in the 206. Of perhaps 500 SL students I had only one who had a "true" open container, due to him dislodging the static line, trapping it between his hand and the floor, and moving backwards. But a few others came close - which is why it was worth the effort to get the lousy fabric and vinyl door closed between each exiting student. One of the scariest events we had was a student who pulled his pin and then climbed out, leaving the bag inside. The lines started paying out, and the JM threw the bag out as far as he could. The canopy hit the tail, the pilot kicked the rudder hard, and he cleared. The JM (not me) was very fortunate that the student was outside at the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #13 September 10, 2009 Bill I understand what your saying. But we are talking about 2 diff. things here. I pull a sentence out of the OP and made a very clear statement. The guy you gear checked is the reason the bag came out, you did not cause it! If someone causes a premy by doing a main pin check they suck! I have not and will not say doing gear checks with the door open is safe. Im not contradicting the OP. I just made a statement.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #14 September 10, 2009 Quoteoh, and us guys over here dont do pinchecks on others at all; one is required to do that stuff themselves PRE-flight! now, if you see something, your help is appreciated..Elaborate please? Where is "over here" and what are the gear check SOPs?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #15 September 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteoh, and us guys over here dont do pinchecks on others at all; one is required to do that stuff themselves PRE-flight! now, if you see something, your help is appreciated..Elaborate please? Where is "over here" and what are the gear check SOPs? over here is switzerland, generally europe i think! check your reserve-cable is running free,, check your PC being cocked and stowed properly, cables of three rings are where they're supposed to be. check your AAD.“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #16 September 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteoh, and us guys over here dont do pinchecks on others at all; one is required to do that stuff themselves PRE-flight! now, if you see something, your help is appreciated..Elaborate please? Where is "over here" and what are the gear check SOPs? over here is switzerland, generally europe i think! check your reserve-cable is running free,, check your PC being cocked and stowed properly, cables of three rings are where they're supposed to be. check your AAD. Don't know about that. In the UK pre-flight pinchecks BY OTHERS are mandatory AFAIK. Here in The Netherlands, while a pincheck is not mandatory for non-students/non-student gear, a lot of the FS4 teams I've jumped with or been in the plane with certainly give oneanother a pincheck (with the door still closed). As a cameraflyer, I especially think that's a good practice, as i don't fancy a canopy coming at me in freefall/in the door and I don't fancy my own stuff creeping out while on the step=near the tail. Now these are all experienced jumpers that I trust around my gear. Otherwise I'll only ask for a pincheck if I think something may have moved that shouldn't. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #17 September 10, 2009 Quote Quote Pulling flaps open and poking around has the potential to dislodge a pin that wasn't seated very well If doing a pin check is going to cause a premature opening then I dont want that person giving me a pin check or on the same plane as me. As a matter of fact they should be skydiving! I know this is a blanket statement but are we going to dumb down skydiving to the lowest commen denominator like school? Bill summed it up pretty well, but the potential situation I was trying to call attention to was one where there already was a problem waiting to happen, and the pin check is the last straw that caused the container to open. I was not suggesting we keep the door closed to protect ourselves from incompetent pin checkers. Although I'll tell you what, even in your situation I'd rather chew the person out and ride the plane down than chase my d-bag out the door. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #18 September 11, 2009 I understand your OP and agree with it. I was just makeing a comment about one line.....thats it. Your OP is one more thing we can all do to make the skys safer!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crustySCSA69 0 #19 September 13, 2009 Quote...... I think it's of greatest concern in the situations where it most commonly happens: on hot days when the door is open above 1000ft and there's a hop and pop on the load getting a pin check. Not only are both the door and the jumper's pin flaps open, but the jumper is also seated/standing right next to the door. If the person doing the check accedentially gets ahold of some bridle along with the main pin flap (and this is entirely possible on just about any rig out there) then the potential for a bad day is very high. ..... Laffin My Fuckin Ass Off ) LMFAO 12 years of jumping when not only, was the door not closed, but, NO EFFING airplane even HAD a door .. and I NEVER saw a pin check cause this kind of problem ... I never even HEARD of it causing this kind of a problem ... more modern ... 'oooh, i can imagine a problem here ... lets change that' well ... 'ooh, I can imagine a solution, stop jumping you ADD twit'.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #20 September 13, 2009 Your attitude sucks ass on about 4 or 5 different levels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #21 September 13, 2009 QuoteQuote...... I think it's of greatest concern in the situations where it most commonly happens: on hot days when the door is open above 1000ft and there's a hop and pop on the load getting a pin check. Not only are both the door and the jumper's pin flaps open, but the jumper is also seated/standing right next to the door. If the person doing the check accedentially gets ahold of some bridle along with the main pin flap (and this is entirely possible on just about any rig out there) then the potential for a bad day is very high. ..... Laffin My Fuckin Ass Off ) LMFAO 12 years of jumping when not only, was the door not closed, but, NO EFFING airplane even HAD a door .. and I NEVER saw a pin check cause this kind of problem ... I never even HEARD of it causing this kind of a problem ... more modern ... 'oooh, i can imagine a problem here ... lets change that' well ... 'ooh, I can imagine a solution, stop jumping you ADD twit'.... Well, if you have never seen it or heard of it, it must be true. After all you are a skygod with an average of about 30 jumps a year. I concur with Andy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #22 September 13, 2009 >12 years of jumping when not only, was the door not closed, but, NO >EFFING airplane even HAD a door .. . . . and no one had ever died from a hook turn. Times change, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #23 September 13, 2009 In defence of Crusty ... he threatened to ground me when I did something stupid in 1980. Crusty threatened to ground me for hook-turning my Strato-Star in 1980. Kiddies, fast-forward ... what is leading killer of skydivers in 2009? Crusty is one of those crusty old skygods who is seeing the same mistakes re-invented for the second or third time. Ignore Crusty at your peril. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 3 #24 September 16, 2009 Simpson!, Thank you for bringing this point up. It never really crossed my mind. I've heard stories of people having to be tackled down near the door because their dbad or pc was coming out, this stuff does happen, and can be prevented.CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CMiller 1 #25 September 20, 2009 I'm one of the guilty parties you saw giving a pin check when the door was open. I would very much like to thank you for pointing it out to me (nobody else did). Prior, it had only occurred to me that a pilot chute out when the door was open would be dangerous, and I never considered a loose pin. It is great that I learned this without anything bad happening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
