JohnRich 4 #1 September 18, 2006 I had an unusual experience with my slider this weekend. It's so unusual, that I've never seen this happen before, in 27 years in this sport. I had a very hard opening shock, that stunned me for a fraction of a second. Cause unknown. Looking up to check my canopy and grab my toggles, I notice that a grommet has been ripped out of one corner of my slider! See the attached photo. The errant loose grommet slid down its line group to the top of the riser where it was supposed to be, so no problem was created with an unsymmetrical canopy. The parachute flew and flared normally. My biggest concern, after quickly discounting the slider as being a problem, was to determine if the hard opening had torn anything else in the canopy - but all was okay. The canopy is a Triathalon 260, with about 250 jumps on it. There was no pre-existing obvious wear and tear on the slider. The canopy was flat-packed as is my norm, with nothing unusual about it. The slider is pulled up to the stops under the canopy, and tucked inside the flaked canopy. I can't imagine how this much force was exerted in a sideways direction to rip out a grommet like this. The whole physics of a slider is that when force is exerted like that, it should slide down the lines following the path of least resistance to relieve that tension. No one who saw it can say that they've ever seen this happen before... I pulled out a spare slider from a previous Triathalon I owned, disconnected the riser connector links, and swapped out the bad one for the spare. Then I was back in the air again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #2 September 18, 2006 QuoteI had an unusual experience with my slider this weekend. It's so unusual, that I've never seen this happen before, in 27 years in this sport. I had a very hard opening shock, that stunned me for a fraction of a second. Cause unknown. Looking up to check my canopy and grab my toggles, I notice that a grommet has been ripped out of one corner of my slider! See the attached photo. The errant loose grommet slid down its line group to the top of the riser where it was supposed to be, so no problem was created with an unsymmetrical canopy. The parachute flew and flared normally. My biggest concern, after quickly discounting the slider as being a problem, was to determine if the hard opening had torn anything else in the canopy - but all was okay. The canopy is a Triathalon 260, with about 250 jumps on it. There was no pre-existing obvious wear and tear on the slider. The canopy was flat-packed as is my norm, with nothing unusual about it. The slider is pulled up to the stops under the canopy, and tucked inside the flaked canopy. I can't imagine how this much force was exerted in a sideways direction to rip out a grommet like this. The whole physics of a slider is that when force is exerted like that, it should slide down the lines following the path of least resistance to relieve that tension. No one who saw it can say that they've ever seen this happen before... I pulled out a spare slider from a previous Triathalon I owned, disconnected the riser connector links, and swapped out the bad one for the spare. Then I was back in the air again! Momentary riser hang up? It would cause a preload on the line group. Also what are the two red horizontal marks on the far right line? Anything to do with it? Food for thought anyway. Mick. Also the grommet appears to be 180 deg out from it's original position judging by the matching rectangular hole and piece left on the side of the grommet. A possible clue perhaps? It does show the grommet gave way from the slider material from the inside edge rather than the outer one next to the binding tape. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #3 September 18, 2006 John, It looks like SS grommets on the slider. Are they SS? MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #4 September 18, 2006 QuoteIt looks like SS grommets on the slider. Are they SS? I believe so. They have stamped into the metal: "Rutgerson" and "Sweden". There is also some kind of plastic washer sandwiched inbetween the two halves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #5 September 18, 2006 John... the only thing I've ever seen that's somewhat similar was years ago... back in the day... some guy that I can no longer rememeber his name, had his PD190 or PD210 (i.e. F111) canopy blow up on a rouge (hard) opening. He cut it away and landed his reserve with no further issues. The thing was, when we recoverd the cut-away (main) and hung it up in the back of the hangar to inspect it and listen to the recounts of, "no shit there I was, thought I was going to die..." from the guy, in addition to the big hole in the top & bottom skin... what was found was that one of the slider gromets was torn out and gone! This was back in the day too before stainless steel gromets were "standard" and you mostly saw brass gromets on main sliders... like your's... none of the lines that had passed through that gromet had broken... so... there must have been enough force for the lines to tear out the gromet and cut the brass was the only conclusion I can recall. Dunno how... but the only WAG I can come-up with in the incident I recall and your's is the slider / gromet hung-up somehow, long enough to damage it, but somehow cleared and allowed the canopy to open and not turn into an SBOS... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #6 September 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteIt looks like SS grommets on the slider. Are they SS? I believe so. They have stamped into the metal: "Rutgerson" and "Sweden". There is also some kind of plastic washer sandwiched inbetween the two halves. Not sure about Triatalon, but SS gromets on PD canopys are pretty much "standard" and have been for awhile, I think. I too have noticed that plastic washer sandwiched inbetween the two halves of SS gromets on sliders and don't recall anything like that when main slider gromets were mostly brass. I figured it had something to do with the swage (sp?) needed to set a SS gromet vs. a brass one of that size? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #7 September 18, 2006 QuoteMomentary riser hang up? It would cause a preload on the line group. The opening was so quick and hard, that I can't imagine anything being hung up, even momentarily. But who knows? The opening was loaded evenly across the risers, as far as I could tell, and it opened straight on-heading with no turn or spinning. QuoteAlso what are the two red horizontal marks on the far right line? Anything to do with it? That is unrelated. It's a marking I made to note a tuft of fiber that was pulled out from the weave of the line, some time ago. I tucked it back in, but wanted to mark the spot so I could keep an eye on it for future trouble. I do this with minor nicks and such, so that I can watch them and see if they're getting worse. QuoteAlso the grommet appears to be 180 deg out from it's original position judging by the matching rectangular hole and piece left on the side of the grommet. A possible clue perhaps? It does show the grommet gave way from the slider material from the inside edge rather than the outer one next to the binding tape. That was very observant of you, from my somewhat fuzzy photo. Yes, the grommet in the photo is aligned 180-degrees off from what it should be. I didn't look that closely at it before taking the picture. The patch of fabric still attached to the grommet, shows stitch marks indicating it had the edge binding tape on it, so it should actually face right instead of left. The grommet was spinning around the line group in the air, and there is no way to know what it's original position was. I just aligned the grommet that way for the photo because I did it quickly and that looked like the way to fit the puzzle piece back into place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #8 September 18, 2006 Quoteone of the slider gromets was torn out and gone! This was back in the day too before stainless steel gromets were "standard" and you mostly saw brass gromets on main sliders... like your's... none of the lines that had passed through that gromet had broken... so... there must have been enough force for the lines to tear out the gromet and cut the brass... Wow, that is really freaky. QuoteDunno how... but the only WAG I can come-up with in the incident I recall and your's is the slider / gromet hung-up somehow, long enough to damage it, but somehow cleared and allowed the canopy to open and not turn into an SBOS... Yes, that's the wild-assed guess that everyone is coming up with. Somehow the grommet might have snagged on something, and the remainder of the slider went ahead and descended the lines, ripping out the hung-up grommet. Then the hung-up grommet must have cleared and descended on its own. And all of this could have happened in just a fraction of a second. There is no damage at the slider stops or on the top of the lines to indicate any kind of hang-up... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #9 September 18, 2006 Interesting thing about the switch from brass to stainless gromets on main sliders from years ago... why? ... because the brass gromets were getting "beat-up" when coming down the lines and hitting the frech links, thus, getting cut or rough or otherwise dinged up resulting in sharp edges and increased line wear and/or broken (cut) lines on subsequent jumps. Okay, brass gromets replaced by stainless ones... okay, now its the french links that were getting beat-up by the stainless slider gromets when the slider came down the lines. I've seen this scenaro more then once, where the jumper doesn't pay attention to upkeep of his of the bumpers on the risers/links... result is the same... the french links dinged up and thus "sharp" and lines wind up getting worn and eventully breaking. Solution to this... SLINKS! Anyway... the point... was the problem really solved? Yes and No. In some ways the problem was just "moved" by each solution and it comes down to proper gear maintenance. ... but I digress. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #10 September 18, 2006 Quote I believe so. They have stamped into the metal: "Rutgerson" and "Sweden". There is also some kind of plastic washer sandwiched inbetween the two halves. Hmmmmmm.... If you look at the loose fibers in the picture the load was applied in the appropriate direction. Everyone is going with the theory that the hard opening caused the slider damage. I'm going with the theory that the slider damage caused the hard opening! What it looks like is when the grommets or rings were installed,they where installed with way too much hydraulic pressure, thus damaging the fabric. Notice how the area around the grommet is almost perfectly round and not jagged like you would expect. Note:The white plastic is a binder on the opposite side for the teeth of the grommet to bind into. BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,406 #11 September 19, 2006 Worst opening I ever had drove my chin into my sternum and made me see stars. When I stopped seeing stars I found that both lower brake lines were snapped clean off the upper steering lines and the slider was sliced in half from front to back with only the reinforcement at the rear of the slide holding the two halves together. I landed it on rear risers. Inspection revealed two tears near steering line attachment points. I sent it in to the mfgr for patching. Neither they nor I had ever seen such damage. Their theory was that the slider somehow got tangled with the Spectra steering lines and got sliced. It was a Triathlon 210. These days it has Dacron lines. The next time shit happens, I want lines with some stretch."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerodyne 0 #12 September 19, 2006 John Glad to see your OK after that opening. I will get intouch with our tech guy Dom and aks what he thinks of the damage. In the mean time please e-mail me your contact info so i can send you a replacement slider. Please also feel free to contact me if you have any queries. Thanks Karl Meyer Sales Representative Aerodyne Research Office: 1 813 891 6300 Mobile: 1 813 841 2149 [email protected] www.flyaerodyne.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #13 September 19, 2006 Uninformed question: Is it possible that the slider grommet was pushed over the slider stop during packing, causing a momentary hang-up, asymmetical loading, and that damage? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 September 19, 2006 QuoteUninformed question: Is it possible that the slider grommet was pushed over the slider stop during packing, causing a momentary hang-up, asymmetical loading, and that damage? Not without damage to the slider stop. Back in the day some garage canopies were made with a poker chip as a slider stop. These would often break allowing the grommet to slide over the stop. Today the stops are made of a stronger material and should not allow the slider grommets to slide over them.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #15 September 19, 2006 Wow! I have repaired plenty of damaged sliders, but that is by far the worst! Last week I repaired a slider for a PD Sabre because three of the four grommets were starting to tear loose from the fabric. They started to tear at the inboard edges, similar to where yours started tearing. So I sewed slider tape patches - top and bottom - on three corners, then installed new brass #8 grommets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #16 September 19, 2006 I'm with MEL. In the absence of burn/melt damage on the slider, I think it most likely to be hard opening caused by failed slider, caused by oversetting. I'm sure we'd all like to see the slider up close and personal. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
askir 0 #17 September 19, 2006 John: I am over at Sandy Reids place till next week, let me take a look at it when I get back. I'll run it by Wayne and Sandy see what they think. Glad you are OK. LIFE IS LIKE A CIGARETTE, YOU CAN SIT THERE AND WATCH IT BURN AWAY OR YOU CAN SMOKE THAT BITCH TO THE FILTER Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #18 September 19, 2006 That was very observant of you, from my somewhat fuzzy photo. Yes, the grommet in the photo is aligned 180-degrees off from what it should be. That's what I do John, that's what I do. (appologies to Fire fly/ Serenity fans). Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #19 September 19, 2006 QuoteQuoteUninformed question: Is it possible that the slider grommet was pushed over the slider stop during packing, causing a momentary hang-up, asymmetical loading, and that damage? Not without damage to the slider stop. Back in the day some garage canopies were made with a poker chip as a slider stop. These would often break allowing the grommet to slide over the stop. Today the stops are made of a stronger material and should not allow the slider grommets to slide over them. I think its a fender washer in there isn't it??... the slider stop on the canopy... next time I come across a canopy that's sooo blown up its not even going to be repaired, I'll have to do a necropsy and see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #20 September 19, 2006 Quote I think its a fender washer in there isn't it??... Correct! 1 1/4" - 1 3/8" OD usually. .... .and Stainless Steel on most canopies today. BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #21 September 19, 2006 QuoteQuote I think its a fender washer in there isn't it??... Correct! 1 1/4" - 1 3/8" OD usually. .... .and Stainless Steel on most canopies today. BS, MEL WOOO WHOOOOO!!! I got something right!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #22 September 19, 2006 canopy that's sooo blown up its not even going to be repaired, I'll have to do a necropsy and see. Wouldn't that be a canopsy? Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #22 September 19, 2006 canopy that's sooo blown up its not even going to be repaired, I'll have to do a necropsy and see. Wouldn't that be a canopsy? Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #23 September 19, 2006 Quote[masterrigger1] Everyone is going with the theory that the hard opening caused the slider damage. I'm going with the theory that the slider damage caused the hard opening! I like the way you think! Quote[kaerodyne] please e-mail me your contact info so i can send you a replacement slider. Replied by private e-mail. I accept your gracious offer! Thank you for this wonderful customer service. Quote[bob.dino] Is it possible that the slider grommet was pushed over the slider stop during packing, causing a momentary hang-up... Possible if the slider stops are damaged or missing. But mine are okay. Good guess, though. Quote[riggerrob] I have repaired plenty of damaged sliders, but that is by far the worst! Lucky me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #24 September 19, 2006 QuoteI'm with MEL. In the absence of burn/melt damage on the slider, I think it most likely to be hard opening caused by failed slider, caused by oversetting. I'm sure we'd all like to see the slider up close and personal. There are no friction burns on the slider, or on the canopy near where the grommet was packed. Attached are two more photos, non-fuzzy ones this time, showing both sides of the damage, with the grommet correctly oriented. The frayed edges on the inside of the grommet hole are probably from that corner of the slider flapping in the wind on the ride down after opening. I remember, after examining the problem and deciding to land with it, pulling the drawstring to collapse the slider, yet still hearing the noise of a flapping slider. And that's not supposed to happen. So that made me look back up and realize the noise was coming from the loose corner flapping rapidly in the breeze. By the way, the "RR" written on the edge tape is something I added, meaning "right rear". It's a little notation I make on all the corners of my slider to help keep me from being stupid some day and hooking my canopy up incorrectly. What if the grommet halves had not been pressed together firmly enough, leaving the grip on the surrounding fabric too loose? The only fabric still inside the edge of the grommet is that outside edge facing the edge tape. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #25 September 20, 2006 QuoteWhat if the grommet halves had not been pressed together firmly enough, leaving the grip on the surrounding fabric too loose? The way the fabric is torn in a straight line at the points I highlighted make me think that the grommet may have been set with too much pressure and cut the fabric.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
