Is it permissible to.....

[xlh883 0]

On one's own rig, to shorten the extra control line length prior to the half brake stow hole by means of a knot or two or three? It has been identified by myself and one other person today that the reason I am not getting a full flare on my Pilot 210 is that the control lines may be a tad long. I forgot to run this by the DZ rigger today so I am asking the masses here.

I am not going to do it though until I get a landing videotaped to actually show the problem and make sure it is not my imagination and I find out who is supposed to do the job. I do not feel I need to physically shorten the lines above the stow hole. Just maybe shorten them an inch or two for flare and see if it helps.

David

[tr027 0]

You're talking about the toggle setting, the distance from the brake setting ("stow hole") to the toggle. Yes, it's no problem for you to change that at all. Consult your local rigger for details.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[Ronaldo 0]

I’m no rigger or instructor so please check this advice with someone you trust.
If it is your own rig you can readjust the toggle position to maximize your flare. On your next jump check the brake line length. Once the canopy is open, check for traffic, unstow the brakes and do a quick check like this: while holding both toggles up, look at the brake lines and make sure they have a small bow at the tail (they should have a large bow now). Pull both toggles and perform a deep flare with maximum arm extension (look at the canopy). The canopy will flare but in your case will probably not stall. Try wrapping the lines around your hand (just one turn) and see if you can reach the stall point. Give this information to your rigger so he can evaluate the best toggle setting. The ideal setting is when you have a bow in full flight and also are able to reach the stall when flaring deep for a few seconds. If you have short arms and a large canopy it may be difficult to reach both points. It is a good idea to do this check once in a while as the brake lines get shorter which will affect the original settings.

Be careful when stalling the canopy, start it and recover slowly. Don’t do it without talking to your instructor first.
Hope it helps

Safe skies!

Ronaldo

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[Martini 0]

Absolutely do not tie a bunch of knots in your brake lines!!!!
Talk to a rigger before doing anything you don't know about.
The change you describe is in the lower brake lines (changing the upper lines can affect how the canopy opens). The change may or may not be easy depending on how the lines are rigged. Yes you probably can do it yourself but only if you know what you are doing. Keep in mind that your canopy saves your life every time you use it, a brake malfunction at flare could be lethal.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[PhreeZone 15]

Don't tie knots in them, call me midweek and we can take a look at the control lines and adjust them as you want them adjusted.

What needs to be done is to undo the knot at the end of of the lower control line and to refinger trap it at the distance that you want the control lines set to. All told its about a 3-4 minute job for a rigger if the lines are not sewn in place. If they are sewn then the rigger needs to replace the lower lines and then they can cut the length to the desired length. Issue is that you need to have a finger traping tool to get the lines tucked in, any rigger worth their salt has a few of them laying around so most riggers can do this work for you.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

xlh883,

Good on you for asking a question. Like most up post have said, you're talking about shortening your break-lines. Since you don't know exactly how it should be done, you should ask for help from one of your local riggers. Have them show you how its done.

Also, you brought up a good point about having someone videoing your landings.

DO NOT shorten your break lines by tying a bunch of knots in the lower control lines. Not only is this sloppy, it can cause problems either when you go to unstow your breaks or when you go to flare (i.e. one or both could hang-up on something).

One way to effectively shorten your break lines without actually retying them, is to take a "wrap" on them after unstowing your breaks.

Good luck.

• Quote

[perse 0]

Quote

One way to effectively shorten your break lines without actually retying them, is to take a "wrap" on them after unstowing your breaks.

I don't think "wrapping" the brake lines and trying to find if you can stall the canopy is a good hint! Actually it's a very stupid one.
-Inexperienced pilot + relatively small stiletto + stalling the canopy with hands tied to toggles.....? :-(
-Same setup....now trying how to land with wrapped steering lines...the other wrap slipping free when flaring....?
There might be someone reading your post and adding a little bit of own imagination and the situation is something like described above.


To the original poster who started this thread:
Take your rig to a local rigger and make them do the job for you. Safe and easy. dot.

[xlh883 0]

After careful consideration and review of my log book as well as taking into acount my lack of experience, so on and so forth, I have decided that altering the canopy caracteristics at this time would not be in my best interest to do.

I only have 11 jumps on this canopy since it was brand new. As long as the canopy was properly rigged, then the most likely problem is me not doing something like I should be. I think I will keep working on technique and get a coach to watch/video tape me landing a few times to try to fix myself.

I know yesterday the first 2 landings someone did watch me and caught me not finishing the flare. That was a problem I thought I had fixed. The 3rd jump I did fix it and the guy thought I would stand up the landing but he was behind me and couldn't see my flare that time. I thought I was going too fast and tried a PLF which turned into a forward roll over.

It would be preferrable of course to get a canopy piloting course, but that probably won't happen for awhile.

Thanks to everyone for the advice. For all I know I may be flaring at the wrong time still, or too fast, or need a 2 stage flare. It is hard to tell under canopy when the ground seems to be rushing up at you.

Yesterday was also full of stress with a bunch of new "1st's" for me such as: 1st skydive after being broken and 6 weeks off, 1st skydive with new full face helmet, 1st skydive with new RW jumpsuit, 1st skydive from a tailgate aircraft (CASA), 1st skydive at this dropzone, expected to be cold on exit, the weather wasn't great was pretty cloudy, not used to that, and being off jumping for 6 weeks for the injury. I am sure there are a few more, but that is all I can think of for the moment. Let's throw in some lack of experience and intimidation to. Hopefully I didn't miss anything here. Too many variables to blame the canopy for my problem. The time off was probably the biggest cuplrit in hindsite, making me nervous/scared.

David

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Perse,

No I don't think its a stupid suggestion... let me try to explain better. If ones break lines are tied too long, rather then re-tye them, its not untypical to just take a wrap on the lines after opening/unstowing your breaks. If the original poster was having problems with their flare because their break lines were tied too long, then one quick way of seeing how the canopy would fly / flare is to take a wrap on the lines. Obviously, you check things out up high, unstow the breaks take a wrap and go back to full flight, look up at your steering lines to see that their is still a slight bow in them to the tail... same thing, different words, in full-flight, there should be a slight amount of slack (or bow) in the steering lines to the tail of the canopy... if you can take a wrap on the lines and this is still the case, they may be tied too long in the first place.

If you take a wrap on the lines and now in full-flight you're deforming the tail of the canopy, then the lines were either tied a the correct point in the first place or too short even in the first place... or the canopy is in need of a line kit, but that's a different discussion. So, yes, in that case, the canopy would stall sooner, something a newbie may not want to experience, certainly not during a flare... so at that point you'd drop the wrap and fly the canopy normal.

Sure, I suppose there's a chance of one wrap slipping from AROUND your hand at landing/flare, but that would be about the same as a toggle slipping out of your hand on landing IMO.

Anyway, sounds like the original poster has a good plan... enough said.

[marinho 0]

Quote

After careful consideration and review of my log book as well as taking into acount my lack of experience, so on and so forth, I have decided that altering the canopy caracteristics at this time would not be in my best interest to do.
David

Excellent conclusion!!! Change any settings of you gear is not a good idea. Besides all the good advices you got, mainly because your first question, a lot of things should be taken in consideration when you have some concerns.
1 - Contact the manufacturer first;
2 - Talk with an experience canopy instructor and ask him/her to watch/video your landings.
3 - Ask your rigger to inspect your canopy, I mean, canopy & lines trim dimension.
If for some reason you still not satisfied, contact the manufacturer and tell them what's going on!!
Be wise and have fun!
Cheers,

Gus Marinho

[xlh883 0]

I finally confirmed yesterday that my control lines are indeed too long. I was given a tip at the DZ yesterday as to how to "tune" my canopy by pulling the toggles down until the lip of the canopy just begins to curl then make note of how much line is below the brake setting ring on the risers, about 10-12 inches worth.

With this in mind, since the rigger couldn't fix it right away, we both decided it was best to try wrapping the lines once to see how much of a difference it made.

It turned out to be a world of difference. For the first time, my canopy flared and actually slowed down, popped up a little and sank. Unfortunately, I am so used to PLF'ing, that I as afraid of it. I made 2 more similar landings and was able to get the last 2 video taped. I can see the flare happening and that I could have stood up both of them. Once the lines are modified, I just have to work on the confidence issue.

I thank everyone here for their great advice in helping me overcome the last big obstacle I feel I have to becoming an average or better skydiver. It has been a challenge, but well worth it.

David

[masterrig 1]

If they are sewn then the rigger needs to replace the lower lines and then they can cut the length to the desired length.
________________________________

Rather than go through replacing the brake-toggle line, I've carefully picked the stitches where the finger-trap is sewn. It's really not all that difficult.


Chuck

[PhreeZone 15]

If the manufactors would be really nice they would put in the No Sew finger trap at the lower so it can be field adjusted anyways.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[masterrig 1]

Quote

If the manufactors would be really nice they would put in the No Sew finger trap at the lower so it can be field adjusted anyways.

______________________________

That would be good. Until then, we just have to deal with it. I've found, picking the back-side (it's usuall looser) of the bar-tack is much easier to remove. I start at one end, wourk my thread pick along and just under all the stitches and use the cutter portion of the pick and cut all the stitches. Turn it over, pick the first broken thread and they'll all come out. Then, carefully pull the straight stitch.


Chuck

[riggerrob 558]

I find it much quicker to simply cut off lower steering lines (below the cats-eye) and fingertrap on new line. New suspension line is cheap, but my time is not.
By using Jump Shack's no-sew finger-trapping method, I save the hassle of carrying the rig to the bar-tack machine.
If your bar-tacker was as old and cantankerous as mine, you would find any excuse not to visit it.
Hee!
Hee!

[masterrig 1]

Great idea! Thanks for sharing that. I especially appreciate the part about the bar-tack machine.


Chuck

[popsjumper 2]

How ironic that just yesterday I was watching a rigger use his bar tack machine and he was putting a hand up in front of his face expecting a broken needle...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[masterrig 1]

Quote

How ironic that just yesterday I was watching a rigger use his bar tack machine and he was putting a hand up in front of his face expecting a broken needle...

_________________________________

In this business... expect the un-expected!


Chuck

[riggerrob 558]

Most new-production bar-tackers have a little plexiglas window specifically designed to deflect broken needles away from the operator's face.